LED Comparisons?

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
I read it when you posted it...I know that you have no idea what the weight will be.
But you keep saying "what will produce what this dorm grow does"....And that is why I keep asking what has it produced????
Understood, produced is in the eye of the beholder, such as in my comparison by sight, have yet to weigh. But unless I too am suffering some sort of vision issue as SDS hopes he is not, just what I can ascertain between the visual acuity of grows seen under same wattage used per say.

DankSwag
 

spazatak

Well-Known Member
Then he should be able to explain my experience and results with the DormGrow lights.

DankSwag
funny how with all the information he has provided to you and the forum you dismiss it on a mute point of him not being able to explain why you panel can grow weed... SMH

For one there are many variables in your grow that none of us will know... so unless SDS has a crystal ball the "result" and explanation of them will be a mystery.


you may want to look at Groerr who uses a chinese panel and gets a nice haul but when you are asking the more senior and knowledgeable members here for advice and you spend 3 pages refuting it dont mind if we laugh a little at you
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
funny how with all the information he has provided to you and the forum you dismiss it on a mute point of him not being able to explain why you panel can grow weed... SMH

For one there are many variables in your grow that none of us will know... so unless SDS has a crystal ball the "result" and explanation of them will be a mystery.


you may want to look at Groerr who uses a chinese panel and gets a nice haul but when you are asking the more senior and knowledgeable members here for advice and you spend 3 pages refuting it dont mind if we laugh a little at you
You are entitled to your opinion, however in my shoes it seems very one sided, that is your prerogative to judge as long as your willing to have the same measure applied to you. Try looking at this objectively as if you had no experience with those who you have deemed knowledgeable, for that is the shoes I starting walking in as I came into this discussion.

There is a saying, Iron sharpens Iron.
Test all things, hold fast to what is good and true.
DankSwag
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
Understood, produced is in the eye of the beholder, such as in my comparison by sight, have yet to weigh. But unless I too am suffering some sort of vision issue as SDS hopes he is not, just what I can ascertain between the visual acuity of grows seen under same wattage used per say.

DankSwag
You're starting to get it. Don't get me wrong...it looks like a shit load of bud there...but I/we need to know how much in actual weight so that I can give you an idea of what light and how many watts are needed of said light to do what you are looking for. Lights performance, as you know(or possibly not), is measure in Grams/Watts...so your (yield weight/actual wattage of the light used at the wall). This is basic ratio of input to output of the grow.

And there is the possibility that you have the messiah of lights. And that the dorm900 will kill the at600. But no one has ever shown that and you would need to be the one to do it.
 

spazatak

Well-Known Member
You are entitled to your opinion, however in my shoes it seems very one sided, that is your prerogative to judge as long as your willing to have the same measure applied to you. Try looking at this objectively as if you had no experience with those who you have deemed knowledgeable, for that is the shoes I starting walking in as I came into this discussion.

There is a saying, Iron sharpens Iron.
Test all things, hold fast to what is good and true.
DankSwag
you arent looking at it objectively... you are disputing & rejecting just about everything he has mentioned...

if you dont like the repsonses people are giving you then perhaps stop asking for their advice
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
you arent looking at it objectively... you are disputing & rejecting just about everything he has mentioned...

if you dont like the repsonses people are giving you then perhaps stop asking for their advice
Someone is not reading my later responses and considering the entirety of what has been communicated...:sad:
I know I have read what I wrote, cause I wrote it...

DankSwag
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
You're starting to get it. Don't get me wrong...it looks like a shit load of bud there...but I/we need to know how much in actual weight so that I can give you an idea of what light and how many watts are needed of said light to do what you are looking for. Lights performance, as you know(or possibly not), is measure in Grams/Watts...so your (yield weight/actual wattage of the light used at the wall). This is basic ratio of input to output of the grow.

And there is the possibility that you have the messiah of lights. And that the dorm900 will kill the at600. But no one has ever shown that and you would need to be the one to do it.
Hi GG,

On the GPW, (Grams Per Watt) that is exactly what I thought the formula was from my prior readings about measure yield against the energy used by the lights. To date I believe the best I've done is close to .85 g a watt. But I have been trying to perfect my pruning techniques with mainlining, lollipoping and proper defoliation to ensure light reaches lower part of branches. So I've had issues producing a consistent full 8 or 16 branches depending on if I am putting 4 plants with 8 cola sights or two with 16. I'd would have some with 7 branches instead of 8 and some with 6 always decreasing the potential for greater yields. This is one of the few times the pruning has gone without screwing up the topping and creating the proper manifold for mainline trained plants.

There is just too much foliage to deal with with 4 plants having 16 branch sites. My plants typically go to flower at 2.5 feet tall and grow to just at or over 3 feet, which only the top 6 to 8 inches having bud sites, for I remove anything lower after the 4 site on the branch. If I pull a half pound from these four plants it will be best so far exceeding the 7.75 oz I have obtain before with these lights, from what I can remember I pulled 220 about 7.75 or 7.80 oz hitting about .85 a gram, respectable but not the holy grail of 1 gram per watt if I recall what holy grail is for GPW. Funny when I mentioned GPW, SDS read it as GPU (grams per unit) as was like perplexed by that misunderstanding.

Knowing the bench mark for any reputable LED panel is to match (yield and quality) of it's HID counter part using roughly somewhere between 20 -30 percent less energy. And for green folks like me that is important to max potential with lowest use of energy possible.

For instance in your Apache grow (please correct me if I am wrong) using a panel that draws roughly 750 watts verses 1000k HPS. You have a larger square footage to cover and more foliage (canopy) to provide light too. I would love to be able to fork out that kind of dough and go with the apache which you have will demonstrated holds it own compared to the HPS and does it more energy efficient in terms of watts used. With regards to my 2x2 space using these 246watts of LED from Dorm Grow, just looking at it seems comparable to what 400 or possibly 600 watt HID would do.

My personal current space is a 2x3 and also have similar grow for a patient from which this 2x2 particular grow occurred. My 2x3 is going away and I am looking at a coverage where one would typically set up two HPS to cover 6 plants each and may hang a MH down between the two HPS HIDS to provide additional spectrum and coverage.

So now I will soon have space to do the traditional HID grow for which I have the gear from past grows from.
Just don't want to use any more energy then possible, don't want to use more energy in a larger fans to remove excess heat from HIDs

So this I will be moving into a space now to do 2 grows of 6 plants each similar to your side by side as far as space goes, the question came to my mind would it be possible to increase my wattage use with larger Dorm Grow panels and get similar results to a HID counter part.

So in the case of the Dorm Grow 900 is rated to draw about 540 watts, it would seem at best it could potentially be on par with a 800watt HPS. If I wanted to do a run to produced more like a 1000w HPS then I would like I would need to supplement adding several of the spot light 12watt red led bulbs that screw in to regular light sockets. They actaully are rated to pull 12 watts. Thinking I would need to add at least 10 if not 20 in lighting fixtures around the edges of the main panel and a lower set around the middle of the foliage. That would be an additional 240 watts, but a 45 a pop I may as well just step up the the AT600 and not fuss getting close to 800watts of LED for 6 plants each. Perhaps only need 10 at 45 a pop which would put total draw 660, about 100 watts less then the Apache AT600 at 3/4 the price. So it seems I may just need to step up to the plate and fork out the dough for the Apaches.

Who knows I just may take up the challenge and get the Dorm Grow 900 and see what it can do solo.
I've got lot to process here and I do appreciate you and others that have been constructive in their replies, you all have been a great help I believe I am much better informed then when I started to ponder should I Apache or Dorm Grow.

I may have to go Dorm Grow until I can get finances secured for the sure thing, its a gamble I wouldn't take if I didn't see a possible potential to be within striking distance of 1 gram per watt. But since I want to use the entire space I have and only have some much to invest I believe Dorm Grow will give me a shot at getting some decent yields, more likely not like the Apache AT600 but I can't afford two of them and would need two to utilize the new space I am looking at.

Again I just want to thank everybody and I promise to update on what this yield is and what m future plans are.

DankSwag
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
All comes down to g/w.

If you are getting .85g/w with you dorm grow now, then you should get around 459g with the big 540w DG unit if you.

That is way simplified, but that is the principal you have been going off.

I can't really tell you much else than on paper the at600 blows the DG away...And I haven't found anything to make for a reality check on that.
But if you are pleased with the your DG and have the faith that it can keep that up in the 900 then you should try it.
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
Just a quick update, been doing a little bit more research in my quest for best LCD PAR for the BUCK.

Right now in the lead to cover a 4x4 is the California Light Works Solar Storm 800
Rated at 650 watt draw and the ability to provide UVB coupled with veg and flower modes and at the
$1500 price range.



Second Runner up the the Black Dog 750 Platinum XL 750, it draws 750 watts and has UVB and IR diodes at the $1800 price range. But it doesn't hold a candle with PAR output such as the Solar Storm or the AT600.




Looking at the Apache the PAR is better but how much and at what additional cost?
At $2500 verse $1500 for the Solar Storm hmm, is it worth it? With no listed UVB.


Apache AT600


So far it looks to me like California Dream Works Solar Storm 800 is best PAR bang for the Buck?
If I am missing something in this analyis I trust you all will inform me promptly!

DankSwag
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
The Apache ends up costing about 2K with the coupon code.

There are growers here that would disagree, but I consider UVB to be a gimmick. Only 5% of the bulb's output is UVB light and only 20% of the watts burned in a small fluoro become photons the other 80% becomes heat in the grow space. Also they suffer badly from reflector losses and lumen depreciation. So what ever watts are spent on the UVB portion of your lamp are not contributing to your yield while increasing complexity and cost. In other words you are better off without UVB IMO. I have tested UVB and (sadly) it did not create miracle weed, it just turned my trichs brown which I do not prefer and when given a choice, neither do most patients in my experience.

So if we compare the solar flare 800 (650W) at $1500, that would be enough to buy (3) Onyx Bloom lamps. Total power consumption for Onyx would be 750W and it uses the Cree XML2 3000K T4 bin so you get known bins that are running over 30% efficient. That should be tough to beat and is the best PAR W/$ on the market that I am aware of.

Sorry if I already said all this I have a terrible memory.
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
Hi SupraSPL,

Those are nice and supposedly same PAR output if not better than 1000w HPS.

So I got to thinking three bloom and two veg for a 4x8 space. Going length wise the lights could be centered every 16 inches. Starting from the outside a veg on 16 inches, then a bloom on 32 inches then a veg on 48 inches, then a bloom on 64 followed by a veg on 80 inches. Or opposite 3 bloom and two veg which may be even better.

So instead of two Apache AT600 at 2k for total of 4k, Five Onxy panels at $500 for $2500 and perhaps even a discount getting 5 would be applied. These should cover the same floor space as two Apache AT600 or two HPS 1000w.

Anywise what do you think of that kind setup? I'm thinking my green thumb is turning a dark shade right now :bigjoint:

DankSwag
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
I have respect for Apache especially after Greengene's awesome side by side, but 4K vs 2.5K is a pretty big difference for the same wattage. Some RIU growers have experimented with removing the Onyx's cover/lenses. I believe that would be a huge improvement in efficiency but I have not tested one myself. It would be easy to use any old light meter to see how much improvement we get from removing the cover.

Although I like the Onyx Bloom on paper, I am not a fan of the Onyx Veg, not hating just trying to be objective. 6500K is too far on the cool side for my preference. The 5000K XML2 has 30% blue which is more than enough for vegging. 4500K XML2 works great for veg and is available in the U2 bin.

My other gripe, the power is concentrated in too small of an area to make sense for vegging a perpetual IMO. For example, I use 90 LED watts to veg for 1250 LED Watts of flowering. The 90W covers about 16 sq ft of veg canopy. The 1250W covers about 40 sq ft of flower canopy. So that is 5 times less intensity in the veg tent and it keeps things moving at just the right pace for the flower tents to receive them. If I ran 400W in the veg tent, I would have trees to the ceiling before the flower tents were ready for them (that may be great for a non perpetual garden).

Also, the XML2s in the Onyx veg are running at over 2A. In the veg room I run my XML2s at 500-600mA because the canopy tends to be much shorter than it will be in flower (there is no advatange to have a longer reach). Even for the taller ladies, 300-500mA does get the job done. This allows you to take advantage of LEDs ability to spread the light and without the use of lenses. Again, the Onyx Veg may be great for growers that are non perpetual and benefit from as short a vegging stage as possible.

DSC07297a.jpg
 
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DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
Hi SupraSPL,

I was thinking the 2 veg lights in the 3 bloom would help fill the space and provide a more balance light spectrum, like where HID growers will use MH in between there HPS fixtures to provide more of a balance which from what I seen when those lights used in combinations produce excellent harvest.

So if you informing me that the bloom lights are fine on their own, and don't need the veg lights. I am okay with that for I have plenty of Dorm Grow lights that have proven to work quite well for vegetation cycle.

How do you run 2amp lights in veg at a lower amperage?
Also considering I am attempting to build out a room that will handle 12 plants flowering at time.
Should I go with 4 of these and place just off center of each 4 x 4 that will have six plants?

DankSwag
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
The XML2 can be run up to 3A, although for grow lights 2A is probably the maximum advised. In a diy setup you can control how much current they get by choosing a constant current driver that puts out the range you are looking for. The drivers are so cheap that you can swap them in and out as needed in different current ranges. Or you can get drivers that have adjustable current output, but they are not quite as cheap.

DS you seem like a very intelligent fellow and based on that I think you could build an awesome DIY setup. 1000W of Onyx bloom (840W dissipation) would cost $1800. To match that you would need about 500W DIY LED dissipation which would cost would cost $800 in parts. But make it 800W dissipation to fill a pair of 4X4's righteously and the cost would be $1300 in parts. If you decide to go that route the DIY crowd will help you get it done.

As far as using 4 Onyx Blooms, I think that would work great in a pair of 4X4s because it has a rectangular shape. Maybe you could do half Onyx Bloom and half DIY?
 
I am actually the grower who produced those buds. I was only running a 240W dormgrow panel and a 90W UFO, didn't end up using the 2 12W Red LED bulbs. With everything said and done I ended up with 91.4 grams from 4 plants in the tent (24"x24"x55").

I don't know anything about the actual draw compared to the claimed 330 combined wattage of the two lights.

91.4/ 330 W (assuming 100% draw) comes out to .277g/watt
91.4/ 248 W (assumed 75% draw) comes out to .369g/watt
91.4/ 198 W (assumed 60% draw) comes out to .461g/watt
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
I am actually the grower who produced those buds. I was only running a 240W dormgrow panel and a 90W UFO, didn't end up using the 2 12W Red LED bulbs. With everything said and done I ended up with 91.4 grams from 4 plants in the tent (24"x24"x55").

I don't know anything about the actual draw compared to the claimed 330 combined wattage of the two lights.

91.4/ 330 W (assuming 100% draw) comes out to .277g/watt
91.4/ 248 W (assumed 75% draw) comes out to .369g/watt
91.4/ 198 W (assumed 60% draw) comes out to .461g/watt
You didn't add the pop corn buds at 20+ grams, which makes the total closer to .5 gram. Still not bad for inexpensive lighting in a 2x2 with plants just slightly over 2 feet tall and a strain (G13) that could of gone longer. Essentially you pulled at or a little over 4 ounces of use able material with nice sticky trichomes on it. I am wondering if you replace that UFO that has blue light with just a Flowering UFO all reds during flower on your next runs if you will do a little better.

Ultimately you will need larger plants and stronger lights IMHO to get closer to the 1 gram a watt mark.

Other than that good job on the pruning and watering, can't wait to taste both the Blue Cheese and the G13, especially the G13 since one rip put you into the twilight zone, talking to you was hilarious I can't wait to taste and see how good it is for myself.

DankSwag
 

Zaycor

Well-Known Member
apologies for the change in subject but does anyone know if Vipar LED are good for small grow's? also would their LED 120x120cm coverage be wasted in a tent size 100x100cm or will the extra light reflected off the mylar be magically absorbed by the plants :clap:? just wondering lol
 

DANKSWAG

Well-Known Member
The XML2 can be run up to 3A, although for grow lights 2A is probably the maximum advised. In a diy setup you can control how much current they get by choosing a constant current driver that puts out the range you are looking for. The drivers are so cheap that you can swap them in and out as needed in different current ranges. Or you can get drivers that have adjustable current output, but they are not quite as cheap.

DS you seem like a very intelligent fellow and based on that I think you could build an awesome DIY setup. 1000W of Onyx bloom (840W dissipation) would cost $1800. To match that you would need about 500W DIY LED dissipation which would cost would cost $800 in parts. But make it 800W dissipation to fill a pair of 4X4's righteously and the cost would be $1300 in parts. If you decide to go that route the DIY crowd will help you get it done.

As far as using 4 Onyx Blooms, I think that would work great in a pair of 4X4s because it has a rectangular shape. Maybe you could do half Onyx Bloom and half DIY?
Supra,

Things have been moving a great speed for me and I am about to actually build my flower - veg - clone room now. Flower room will be sealed and veg - clone in same space.

I am in the process of putting it together, for flower room I plan on using a 10x5 space in which I will place the 4 onyx bloom lights (looking for recommendation on re-seller) which will leave me 10x5.5 for veg and cloning with an additional 2x4 space attached to veg/clone area where cloning will take place.

Nonetheless I plan on growing 12 plants 6 plants in a four foot square area each under 2 Onyx bloom lights. I've been reading up on your DIY and if I had time I'd get busy building and I will I just have obligations to another couple patients in my collective and I need to produce medicine pronto so no time to build but I will and hope I can lean on you and other LED heads. This has been a great learning experience and I am hoping that I have stepped up to provide a better quality of light in both the output and availability for plant photosynthesis and is energy efficient.

DankSwag
 
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