Temp THC burns, decarbs, and bonds?

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
There is an old hash recipe that calles for heating compressed kief in cellophane to 140 f to get it to melt and stick together. Then recently i heard 180 f is the temp thc turns molten. So i figure 180 is a good temp to infuse oils.
 

HeatlessBBQ

Well-Known Member
There is an old hash recipe that calles for heating compressed kief in cellophane to 140 f to get it to melt and stick together. Then recently i heard 180 f is the temp thc turns molten. So i figure 180 is a good temp to infuse oils.
THANK YOU !!!!!!
You just answer this whole entire thread's question... Years later. hahahaha
much love ((( <3 )))
 
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YBAdick?

Member
don't heat your weed in an oven at 225F for any amount of time. at 215F thc will combust in the presence of oxygen. This is slow but, when warming up a vaporizer, it is not a bad place to start.

decarboxylation does not require any specific heat to occur. heat is only catalytic in the process. When thc decarboxylates, that means it is released from the carbon molecules(marijuana flower) and bonds, typically, to free-floating oxygen molecules. In other words, decarboxylating will reduce the potency of your weed.

When vaporizing start at 180F until then your finally get a fat cloud upon exhaling. This may take up to 15 minutes. raise up to 400F at regular intervals. Be sure to wait for the smoke to build back up in the chamber before going back at it.

when cooking, the range you are looking for is between 186F and 215F. When using most oils (I use olive oil and I know that this is the case) raising the temperature above 215F will have a toxic affect on your oil. Irreversible denaturation occurs and even more so thc will start to release into the atmosphere.
All accurate info. We’ll put.
 

Kritkat

New Member
I made two oils last batch and had them tested.

Batch one I baked the flower at 300F for 7 min or so. Threw it into a crock pot for 18 hours then strained it through a cheese cloth.
Here are the results.
View attachment 2692085

Second batch I threw in the crock pot for 18 hours. Strained it in a cheese cloth then put in double boiler for about 27 min while watching the bubbles until they completely stopped.
Here are the results.
View attachment 2692087

Both came out quite well, I believe that because I waited for all the bubbles to stop I ended up transforming CBD & CBN's at a faster rate and ended up with a little less THC.

I believe both methods produced similar effects.
Both were "similar" samples of flower. The exact mixture is not known, I keep the "fall off" of all buds in the dispensary and those went into the samples.

So they are of similar mix but not exact.

In recent trials, I have been able to raise the THC and CBD even more with the same type sample. (CBN went down)
View attachment 2736857
Many years ago I read something after much research and embarked upon trials and found my best method. The key being in what I read was the time to heat and infuse....22-24 hours... Never over 24 or you'd start to degrade the THC. (This info lodged in my brain and I've never forgotten). It's so long ago I have no idea the complete full research or where I read the info that finally seemed to make the most sense and now wish I could! Because it was tried and true, and strong all while utilizing way less material than other recipes I'd read and ALWAYS was a longer cook time. Anybody doing it faster was certainly wasting more material and needing to ingest more than with mine.

I'd like to see what I read previously and compare and interpolate in trying to adapt and utilize some of the newer information I keep up on reading regarding extraction. I've found myself feeling like lately every time is an experiment again, even though I'm trying to stick to my one method!
But I used to use water in my crockpot, now sometimes I try not to.... Only to then think it wasn't as good so then next time I'll return to with water again (repeat)...I've started clarifying my butter.... I've started adding lecithin...

I read the new ideas like badkat and as noted in this thread about decarbing first before extraction, the freezing method, etc etc all the different variables.... And then I think about how to incorporate and maybe improve my tried and true. Hence how I've ended up feeling like every time is still a new time because I haven't worked it out quite yet as some info confuses me! And of course I'm a terrible scientist changing too many variables at one time to really isolate

I say all that to postulate about your test results and get feedback on some things I've concluded, and then some questions I still have remaining... And hopefully informative discussion ensue!

I have never decarbed first in an oven.
I believe (and have read other support) decarb can happen during extraction. I know it to be true otherwise my butter would never work... And it always does.

Did you consider for the 2nd batch results that the THC was down and CBN increased because you surpassed the point of conversion of thca to THC that the THC then started to turn to CBN? I would believe you decarbed and extracted/bonded in the 18 hours already. Question would be.... Could it have gone longer and you get more conversion to THC ? That you weren't at 70% yet (the point where THC to CBN dramatically speeds up)?
Did the additional decarb step post 18 hours heating ensure you went beyond 70% and therefore more rapidly were converting THC to CBN than the remaining THCa was being converted to THC?

I look at the chart and it supports to me the 22-24 hour cook time because of the lower temperature associated with that amount of time. The gentle steady path of the curve at lower temperatures suggests an equally less drastic curve for when THC starts converting to CBN (as can be seen with those that do show the decline in THC conversion above).

My latest experiences:
Last time I returned to water in my crockpot. Decided fuck ghee the water will evaporate out eventually on it's own (yes I now know other reasons not to think that's the only concern!), Put in my material, put in my lecithin and set to go 22 or 23 hours.

Yes I freaked out when in continuing to read wanting to perfect I came across SEVERAL mentions of NOT putting lecithin in if using water method until AFTER straining out water (what?!?! I've done it before no issue...I think?)... That the lecithin would bond the water to the fat and thus all my goodies as well. I thought it was going to be a loss.
Much to my surprise, and no I'm not quite sure how or why, everything was as strong as expected. I salvaged it somehow. ‍♀
I did however notice the bubble action I had also read about being an indicator of decarb state, but mostly at first because I thought of... shit! this is because I put the lecithin in when I shouldn't have!
At about 21 hours I noticed significant change in the bubbling. I was hesitant though...I know I'm good with 23 hours... Is it too soon to pull it? Is this really the bubble production I'm supposed to be paying attention to in the first place? Or is this bubbling only because of the lecithin?
I think I let it go one more hour at which point I said ok this is really still/not bubbling looking as compared to before I'm going to pull it out now.

It was good...I was pleased. Considered it stressful success with maybe a little luck in the salvage.

Next time I'm convinced again no water. It's a bad evil. And I'll wash it AFTER extraction a couple times maybe even (been doing more reading!!)
*Note: LOTS of questions about this washing method!!! Save those for later!*
And I'm definitely going to the trouble of a ghee again.
So...crockpot, ghee, material, lecithin... GO! It will be a long 23 hours...
Except....I notice again the bubble action similar to before.... Ok guess it's just the lecithin increasing this activity and nothing to do with the water. DATA NOTED! lol
However...I notice this bubbling seem to significantly change, also like before, but maybe not quite as still, and oh shit... I'm only at... Wait....4 hours?!? Is that right?
What do I do? Am I supposed to pull it NOW??? Is decarb peaked? What if I haven't gone long enough and don't get all THC I can? But what if I'm now just turning to CBN????
I borrow a digital thermometer and decide to check the temp I'm my crockpot... Because does this ghee actually get hotter than when the water is there, too? Afterall in the old days the water was used to help with temperature control... My crockpot has low high warm.... But what temp is it getting to exactly? And does it cycle? How consistent is the temp and what is it making this ghee temp?
Worse... I got different reads at different spots in the pot. Even more worse, I was getting reads near 250 (f)! Oh shit... Looking at the chart, 4 hours in, if this has been the case, I'm well surpassed the time. The bubbles make sense /are corroborated by these temps!
But it's not uniform at this temp.... What effect is that having?
Essentially...I found myself in conundrum and having to determine what to do.
Too many questions! Too many unknowns! Not a very well defined experiment!!! Lol

Let's discuss all this about this bubble production...
Can I watch the bubbles in my ghee and material and that's the decarb action? And use it's activity to judge when it's complete or peaked? Everyone talks of a hot oil bath and then I get confused about WHERE and WHICH bubbles are they watching?
Am I correct in thinking I can watch the bubbles in my crockpot to visually see peak of decarb?

Back to the experiment...
Well I ended up going a few more hours... like maybe 7 or 8 because I went to bed. I may have decided to put it on warm so at least it may be lower temperature? Can't remember.

But having done a test comparison and I'm going to say this batch is not as "strong" which ultimately I think it's less "high" as in head high, but increased body effect /sedative.... Which would make sense if I've got more CBN and less THC if it's because I should have pulled at the bubbles changing.
But I don't know if that's actually all true.

I think I want to repeat this last time exactly and do just that... Pull at the bubble change and see how they compare. Same material same everything else.

I need to go ahead and get some testing really of my product!

I also noticed your test results didn't show THCa %... Which would help to provide more detailed picture in seeing what could be responsible for the change of results in your 2 batches.

Someone on here said they think 180 for bonding to fats. But I still haven't seen anything regarding how long does it actually take to bond???

The other informative person on here that believes also in the long slow cook, would say the amount of time bonding is best with long times.... But he loses me however when it comes to the temps AND having pre-decarbed for the exact reasons I questioned about your 2nd batch having higher CBN.
This all confuses me as well since he seemingly has had lots of success.
But 18 hours after decarb????

Maybe it's the kind (effect) of edible we're going for as the end result?

I saw you had a subsequent post with more results that were improved.... But you didn't mention what you did differently and changed for that batch! Would you please share the adjustments you made to your process and why you think your results were better?

Thanks!!!!
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Many years ago I read something after much research and embarked upon trials and found my best method. The key being in what I read was the time to heat and infuse....22-24 hours... Never over 24 or you'd start to degrade the THC. (This info lodged in my brain and I've never forgotten). It's so long ago I have no idea the complete full research or where I read the info that finally seemed to make the most sense and now wish I could! Because it was tried and true, and strong all while utilizing way less material than other recipes I'd read and ALWAYS was a longer cook time. Anybody doing it faster was certainly wasting more material and needing to ingest more than with mine.

I'd like to see what I read previously and compare and interpolate in trying to adapt and utilize some of the newer information I keep up on reading regarding extraction. I've found myself feeling like lately every time is an experiment again, even though I'm trying to stick to my one method!
But I used to use water in my crockpot, now sometimes I try not to.... Only to then think it wasn't as good so then next time I'll return to with water again (repeat)...I've started clarifying my butter.... I've started adding lecithin...

I read the new ideas like badkat and as noted in this thread about decarbing first before extraction, the freezing method, etc etc all the different variables.... And then I think about how to incorporate and maybe improve my tried and true. Hence how I've ended up feeling like every time is still a new time because I haven't worked it out quite yet as some info confuses me! And of course I'm a terrible scientist changing too many variables at one time to really isolate

I say all that to postulate about your test results and get feedback on some things I've concluded, and then some questions I still have remaining... And hopefully informative discussion ensue!

I have never decarbed first in an oven.
I believe (and have read other support) decarb can happen during extraction. I know it to be true otherwise my butter would never work... And it always does.

Did you consider for the 2nd batch results that the THC was down and CBN increased because you surpassed the point of conversion of thca to THC that the THC then started to turn to CBN? I would believe you decarbed and extracted/bonded in the 18 hours already. Question would be.... Could it have gone longer and you get more conversion to THC ? That you weren't at 70% yet (the point where THC to CBN dramatically speeds up)?
Did the additional decarb step post 18 hours heating ensure you went beyond 70% and therefore more rapidly were converting THC to CBN than the remaining THCa was being converted to THC?

I look at the chart and it supports to me the 22-24 hour cook time because of the lower temperature associated with that amount of time. The gentle steady path of the curve at lower temperatures suggests an equally less drastic curve for when THC starts converting to CBN (as can be seen with those that do show the decline in THC conversion above).

My latest experiences:
Last time I returned to water in my crockpot. Decided fuck ghee the water will evaporate out eventually on it's own (yes I now know other reasons not to think that's the only concern!), Put in my material, put in my lecithin and set to go 22 or 23 hours.

Yes I freaked out when in continuing to read wanting to perfect I came across SEVERAL mentions of NOT putting lecithin in if using water method until AFTER straining out water (what?!?! I've done it before no issue...I think?)... That the lecithin would bond the water to the fat and thus all my goodies as well. I thought it was going to be a loss.
Much to my surprise, and no I'm not quite sure how or why, everything was as strong as expected. I salvaged it somehow. ‍♀
I did however notice the bubble action I had also read about being an indicator of decarb state, but mostly at first because I thought of... shit! this is because I put the lecithin in when I shouldn't have!
At about 21 hours I noticed significant change in the bubbling. I was hesitant though...I know I'm good with 23 hours... Is it too soon to pull it? Is this really the bubble production I'm supposed to be paying attention to in the first place? Or is this bubbling only because of the lecithin?
I think I let it go one more hour at which point I said ok this is really still/not bubbling looking as compared to before I'm going to pull it out now.

It was good...I was pleased. Considered it stressful success with maybe a little luck in the salvage.

Next time I'm convinced again no water. It's a bad evil. And I'll wash it AFTER extraction a couple times maybe even (been doing more reading!!)
*Note: LOTS of questions about this washing method!!! Save those for later!*
And I'm definitely going to the trouble of a ghee again.
So...crockpot, ghee, material, lecithin... GO! It will be a long 23 hours...
Except....I notice again the bubble action similar to before.... Ok guess it's just the lecithin increasing this activity and nothing to do with the water. DATA NOTED! lol
However...I notice this bubbling seem to significantly change, also like before, but maybe not quite as still, and oh shit... I'm only at... Wait....4 hours?!? Is that right?
What do I do? Am I supposed to pull it NOW??? Is decarb peaked? What if I haven't gone long enough and don't get all THC I can? But what if I'm now just turning to CBN????
I borrow a digital thermometer and decide to check the temp I'm my crockpot... Because does this ghee actually get hotter than when the water is there, too? Afterall in the old days the water was used to help with temperature control... My crockpot has low high warm.... But what temp is it getting to exactly? And does it cycle? How consistent is the temp and what is it making this ghee temp?
Worse... I got different reads at different spots in the pot. Even more worse, I was getting reads near 250 (f)! Oh shit... Looking at the chart, 4 hours in, if this has been the case, I'm well surpassed the time. The bubbles make sense /are corroborated by these temps!
But it's not uniform at this temp.... What effect is that having?
Essentially...I found myself in conundrum and having to determine what to do.
Too many questions! Too many unknowns! Not a very well defined experiment!!! Lol

Let's discuss all this about this bubble production...
Can I watch the bubbles in my ghee and material and that's the decarb action? And use it's activity to judge when it's complete or peaked? Everyone talks of a hot oil bath and then I get confused about WHERE and WHICH bubbles are they watching?
Am I correct in thinking I can watch the bubbles in my crockpot to visually see peak of decarb?

Back to the experiment...
Well I ended up going a few more hours... like maybe 7 or 8 because I went to bed. I may have decided to put it on warm so at least it may be lower temperature? Can't remember.

But having done a test comparison and I'm going to say this batch is not as "strong" which ultimately I think it's less "high" as in head high, but increased body effect /sedative.... Which would make sense if I've got more CBN and less THC if it's because I should have pulled at the bubbles changing.
But I don't know if that's actually all true.

I think I want to repeat this last time exactly and do just that... Pull at the bubble change and see how they compare. Same material same everything else.

I need to go ahead and get some testing really of my product!

I also noticed your test results didn't show THCa %... Which would help to provide more detailed picture in seeing what could be responsible for the change of results in your 2 batches.

Someone on here said they think 180 for bonding to fats. But I still haven't seen anything regarding how long does it actually take to bond???

The other informative person on here that believes also in the long slow cook, would say the amount of time bonding is best with long times.... But he loses me however when it comes to the temps AND having pre-decarbed for the exact reasons I questioned about your 2nd batch having higher CBN.
This all confuses me as well since he seemingly has had lots of success.
But 18 hours after decarb????

Maybe it's the kind (effect) of edible we're going for as the end result?

I saw you had a subsequent post with more results that were improved.... But you didn't mention what you did differently and changed for that batch! Would you please share the adjustments you made to your process and why you think your results were better?

Thanks!!!!
“Bonding to fats” does not happen. IMO that is one of the excesses of “bro science” that infest this topic.
The three things that matter are:

1) dissolution (fats and alcohol are good solvents for THCA and THC).
2) decarboxylation (a function of time and temperature; read earlier posts treating of this)
3) decomposition (too hot for too long, only happens if you severely exceed the envelope in point 2).

At no point is the fat or oil used more than a solvent and edible vehicle.
 

Kritkat

New Member
“Bonding to fats” does not happen. IMO that is one of the excesses of “bro science” that infest this topic.
The three things that matter are:

1) dissolution (fats and alcohol are good solvents for THCA and THC).
2) decarboxylation (a function of time and temperature; read earlier posts treating of this)
3) decomposition (too hot for too long, only happens if you severely exceed the envelope in point 2).

At no point is the fat or oil used more than a solvent and edible vehicle.
If not "bonding" and rather is "dissolution"...which actually I can wrap my head around and think is potentially more sensible... Thank you! The question (one of my many) still remains the same... At what temp and how long does this dissolution take?

I'm aware about 2 and 3...
I'm just wanting to understand more of the science in all this even deeper than what is known and I've found available thus far. There's a whole lot of opinion, I've read lots of other's experience, I've got plenty of my own. But I want to hone in more specifically on some data which will give more info and help answer all those questions I also asked that have continued to perplex me.
 

Kritkat

New Member
That chart is for "glass surface, open air' so oxidation effects are pronounced. i obtained complete conversion at 110 Celsius (oil bath temp) after 10-15 minutes (as checked by tlc). I could monitor reaction progress by the foaming of the hot extract. cn

Let's discuss all this about this bubble production...
Can I watch the bubbles in my ghee and material and that's the decarb action? And use it's activity to judge when it's complete or peaked? Everyone talks of a hot oil bath and then I get confused about WHERE and WHICH bubbles are they watching?
Am I correct in thinking I can watch the bubbles in my crockpot to visually see peak of decarb?
I recognized your tag name because I remembered it b/c of interest in another of your responses... So I went back to check.

Seems you could be the perfect person to also weigh in on my other questions regarding the bubbling and decarb state and visually detecting.
I'd appreciate it!
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
If not "bonding" and rather is "dissolution"...which actually I can wrap my head around and think is potentially more sensible... Thank you! The question (one of my many) still remains the same... At what temp and how long does this dissolution take?

I'm aware about 2 and 3...
I'm just wanting to understand more of the science in all this even deeper than what is known and I've found available thus far. There's a whole lot of opinion, I've read lots of other's experience, I've got plenty of my own. But I want to hone in more specifically on some data which will give more info and help answer all those questions I also asked that have continued to perplex me.
At room temp the dissolution takes an hour or two in a mix of bud with oil or liquid fat. In alcohol, less than a minute, which is why qwiso (quick-wash isopropyl alcohol extraction, usually done at freezer temps) works well.
At 80 C and up, maybe a minute.

Fat and weed oil are miscible, which means soluble in each other at any ratio. If you’re working with a very viscous extract, a bit of heat and stirring quickly mix the two.
 

Kritkat

New Member
At room temp the dissolution takes an hour or two in a mix of bud with oil or liquid fat. In alcohol, less than a minute, which is why qwiso (quick-wash isopropyl alcohol extraction, usually done at freezer temps) works well.
At 80 C and up, maybe a minute.

Fat and weed oil are miscible, which means soluble in each other at any ratio. If you’re working with a very viscous extract, a bit of heat and stirring quickly mix the two.
Thank you!!!
I was thinking it could be fairly quick... Like- melting butter or chocolate on low heat and stir- kind of timeline.

Someone earlier posted about THC becoming molten at 180 (f). Would you agree and that this is the temp at which dissolution will happen?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I recognized your tag name because I remembered it b/c of interest in another of your responses... So I went back to check.

Seems you could be the perfect person to also weigh in on my other questions regarding the bubbling and decarb state and visually detecting.
I'd appreciate it!
I have only noted the bubbling when I decarbed pure (undissolved) extract in a flask immersed in an oil bath preheated to 110 degrees C. I don’t imagine it is visible in a diluted extract such as made with coconut oil. Only way to be sure then is time at temperature.

Back in the day, I used tlc (thin-layer chromatography, a quick and easy test) to track the decarb process. This allowed me to gain experience with time/temperature.
My efforts to do tlc at home didn’t pan out so well. So I’m reduced to saying “this method worked” without telling you how to test my veracity.

Thus I read accounts of decarb at lower temperatures with skepticism, but without certainty that it didn’t or won’t work.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Thank you!!!
I was thinking it could be fairly quick... Like- melting butter or chocolate on low heat and stir- kind of timeline.

Someone earlier posted about THC becoming molten at 180 (f). Would you agree and that this is the temp at which dissolution will happen?
THC and high-percentage extracts e.g. shatter are glassy at room temperature. At about 60 degrees, 140 F, they are pourable and fast-mixing.

Dissolution can and will occur at low temperatures in any suitable solvent, like 95% alcohol. In a viscous medium like olive oil, it’ll also happen, just more slowly. The preparation instructions for, say, infused coconut oil work best hot but will still go so long as the oil is above its freezing point. I live in the Mojave and am a cheap bastard when it comes to heating and cooling. My big jar of coconut oil is solid now but will be a clear liquid in summer when it can be ninety-plus in my house.

Now my house is around sixty degrees, but spring is coming. Last year, spring was a Tuesday. :joint::bigjoint:
 

Zinger59

Well-Known Member
Hahaha! Believe it or not, I've been told that, yes, decarboxylation does improve the high when smoked. The science behind that is shaky at best, but there is a large enough number of cooks who will make this claim that I don't feel comfortable to simply dismiss it with my offhand.
I've been eating pot for 30 years in brownies, muffins and cookies. I only discovered the decarb process in the last few years. I've read data showing conversion of THC after decarb is significant when cooking but when smoking it occurs when when it is ignited. I bake my keef at 240F for 35 mins. I got the temps. off several websites. To tell the truth, I've forgotten to decarb a batch from time to time and it still works fine.
 

Zinger59

Well-Known Member
THC and high-percentage extracts e.g. shatter are glassy at room temperature. At about 60 degrees, 140 F, they are pourable and fast-mixing.

Dissolution can and will occur at low temperatures in any suitable solvent, like 95% alcohol. In a viscous medium like olive oil, it’ll also happen, just more slowly. The preparation instructions for, say, infused coconut oil work best hot but will still go so long as the oil is above its freezing point. I live in the Mojave and am a cheap bastard when it comes to heating and cooling. My big jar of coconut oil is solid now but will be a clear liquid in summer when it can be ninety-plus in my house.

Now my house is around sixty degrees, but spring is coming. Last year, spring was a Tuesday. :joint::bigjoint:
I tried coconut oil, butter, canola oil and olive oil. Canola is best for the body with lowest saturated fats as opposed to coconut oil which is solid at room temp. Coconut oil has more sat. fat than lard and butter and since I have high cholesterol I have been using olive oil and getting good results in my muffin recipe. 24 muffins=48g keef
 

Kritkat

New Member
[]
I wish we could sit down, sip tea, and discuss at great length!

Now you've given me...more to ponder, more for me to look into, more to keep learning!

cannabineer... Thank you for all your responses!
 

Bush wolf

New Member
high everyone!
here are my questions ?
1) heat is heat so if the plant material is in the oven at 110 deg or in oil at 110 deg the decarboxylation
process of driving off the carbon dioxide should happen? In the oven you won’t see it but in the oil you will see a little bubble of
carbon dioxide float to the surface? And when that stops all the carbon dioxide is gone and the Thc-a is now thc ?
but only in just oil. Because if we add water then the bubbles are just boiling water bubbles?

2) if you decarb first in the oven then put in oil at temp of 110 are you now driving the conversion to cbn? As the decarb has already happened ?

3) the time it takes for the thc to dissolve into the oil /combine with the oil is it, 20 min, 2 hrs, 4 hrs 8 hrs 12 hours 24 hrs?

4) If we leave the plant material in the oil for too long at any temp are we again driving the conversion to cbn?

lets See if any scientist has the answers to these questions
 
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