ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
nice going! And great pix and focus for a first try! I'm really wowed! :D

the 1st 3 pix seem to be at 400x total mag - in that case, in the first pic you're seeing a bacterial aggregate and them working on some OM.

in the second, in the bottom right quadrant there's a longish rod, that's a proper Bacillus (=genus, not just the shape), the dots are distinctive and can appear in different places and numbers, but I don't identify beyond that, as it's just the kind of player that will give me the indication of yes, good one, want to have.
(and actually, the brown 2-part sticklike thing all covered in fulvic goo in the upper left quadrant could be a bit of hypha, one would have to focus up and down a bit to see if one can see the contours, septae, and the breakline on the ends - if it were one, it would be classed as a very beneficial one!)

Paired with the bacilli-chains on the 3rd pic, and the general appearance of the aggregates at lower magnification in the nematode pic (fuzzy wuzzy looking), we get a very rod-shape dominant picture, which I have found to correlate with the appearance of clearly anaerobic players, though there are still other bacterial morphologies around too. So in this combination you're looking at an ACT going anaerobic - you mentioned the protozoans "zipping", which is typical of ciliates (the oblong thing at the bottom of the nematode picture could actually be one too), and voilá your low-oxygen indicators when you see more than 1-2 per slide. ;)
So it always also depends on the context, the numbers.

If the compost you used did have fungal populations and you see none at all in the tea (even with molasses, there's the occasional strand), another indication of low oxygen having happened: anaerobic bacteria can chew up fungal hyphae within 20 mins - they just seem to dissolve - and the confirmed pictures I've seen of this happening always had rod-shaped bacteria dominating too. So that's possibly part of why you're not seeing any fungi too.
Welcome to the world of disenchantment? :bigjoint:
Now, getting the oxygen back in there (diluting with fresh water for example and bubbling that more) can turn the situation back around, putting the ciliates to sleep, awakening the flagellates and other species of bacteria that may originally have been around. It's a bit tricky, because you may need to add food again too. But by just replenishing dissolved oxygen, you can at least get it back into a state where you don't have to feel bad watering it in somewhere ;)

Yes! Definitely go for the fungal foods, my try with kelp and humic alone was eye opening and I look forward to doing more brews like that soon!
never again molasses and such!
I started with 1 cup VC + 1 tsp kelp (bubbled a while with the humic before adding the VC, though I may presoak a few hrs beforehand next time too) in 5L water, but added another tsp kelp later because not much was going on yet. So I ended up brewing 48 hrs but then had a tea with low counts of individuals but a fungal to bacterial mass ratio of 6.2 lol never seen that before (the VC was somehere at 0.7 iirc) Oh and that ACT really had an effect on the balance of one of my pot soils, raising fungal presence significantly.
The reason I'm telling you this is because we can be using way smaller amounts of food than are generally spoken of with regards to ACT. That 1 tsp is the actual recommendation we get in the course as our starting point for experimentation - finding juuust the right amount of our particular food (e.g. not "kelp", "THIS kelp"!) to get the kind of growth we want to see :) Too much food causes too quick of a growth spurt, using up oxygen faster and thus making dips into anaerobic phases more likely.

Haha, fun stuff!
Cheers! :blsmoke:
ok this is all interesting stuff and it's gonna take me a couple days to take it all in. seriously, thank you so very much for your input. Highly valued, and never disappointing :) I'm just really excited that I get to do this shit at school and not only learn myself, but also learn with my educators that like what I'm doing. I have a few very supportive people that help me out all the time. It's nice to have free reign in the labs haha.

for what its worth, the first few images are all at 1000x under oil immersion. it was difficult to get stuff in the FOV without the lens bumping the slide and creating pressure waves in the solution. The last pic with the nematode is the 400x view, which was much easier on the eyes lol.

my initial "ahah!" moment of what I took away from your post is maybe I brewed too long for the temperature of the room. it was def 70+ degrees so I'm curious if the water was too warm and lost its ability to hold oxygen at a high enough level once the party really got going. I mean I have two cylinder stones in there pumping a lot of air into the water... but maybe it's just not enough? The other reflection was, is it better to start with a small amount of food and when you see the organisms that you want, then add more food to give them "unlimited resources"?

This is fun :D
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
ok this is all interesting stuff and it's gonna take me a couple days to take it all in. seriously, thank you so very much for your input. Highly valued, and never disappointing :) I'm just really excited that I get to do this shit at school and not only learn myself, but also learn with my educators that like what I'm doing. I have a few very supportive people that help me out all the time. It's nice to have free reign in the labs haha.

for what its worth, the first few images are all at 1000x under oil immersion. it was difficult to get stuff in the FOV without the lens bumping the slide and creating pressure waves in the solution. The last pic with the nematode is the 400x view, which was much easier on the eyes lol.

my initial "ahah!" moment of what I took away from your post is maybe I brewed too long for the temperature of the room. it was def 70+ degrees so I'm curious if the water was too warm and lost its ability to hold oxygen at a high enough level once the party really got going. I mean I have two cylinder stones in there pumping a lot of air into the water... but maybe it's just not enough? The other reflection was, is it better to start with a small amount of food and when you see the organisms that you want, then add more food to give them "unlimited resources"?

This is fun :D
Yeah there is a distinct advantage being able to learn under real guidance!
The sheer amounts of literature! And the many directions! I totally look forward to getting into the certification process, then at least I'll have a 1 on 1 mentor via skype :rolleyes: Never the same as standing right next tho, which is the reason I'd really really love to work on Elaine's farm for a beat!

Ah 1000x, OK - well it doesn't change any of what I said about them, in this case ;)

Yeah the direction your thoughts are taking are coherent in themselves, but may not be the issue too.
When I read cylinder stones I think biofilm. I've come to realize that's the one thing that's going to break even the most lovely compost, recipe and combination of factors, and the reason why I'm about to build myself a new brewer with NO nicks and crannies, or hosing and stuff in the brew - or at least as little as possible. 8)
So it could be that, and everything else is great haha


is it better to start with a small amount of food and when you see the organisms that you want, then add more food to give them "unlimited resources"?
Sorry I don't follow.
Why would you add more food and ruin the balance if you're already seeing the organisms you want in there? Feeding them more would provoke a growth spurt leading to higher oxygen demands at any time during the brew?

It kind of sounds like you're falling into more-on think there (i.e. that more/bigger/faster is better) - whereas working with nature is a Goldilocks story (not too much, not too little, but juuust right) :bigjoint:
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Yeah there is a distinct advantage being able to learn under real guidance!
The sheer amounts of literature! And the many directions! I totally look forward to getting into the certification process, then at least I'll have a 1 on 1 mentor via skype :rolleyes: Never the same as standing right next tho, which is the reason I'd really really love to work on Elaine's farm for a beat!

Ah 1000x, OK - well it doesn't change any of what I said about them, in this case ;)

Yeah the direction your thoughts are taking are coherent in themselves, but may not be the issue too.
When I read cylinder stones I think biofilm. I've come to realize that's the one thing that's going to break even the most lovely compost, recipe and combination of factors, and the reason why I'm about to build myself a new brewer with NO nicks and crannies, or hosing and stuff in the brew - or at least as little as possible. 8)
So it could be that, and everything else is great haha



Sorry I don't follow.
Why would you add more food and ruin the balance if you're already seeing the organisms you want in there? Feeding them more would provoke a growth spurt leading to higher oxygen demands at any time during the brew?

It kind of sounds like you're falling into more-on think there (i.e. that more/bigger/faster is better) - whereas working with nature is a Goldilocks story (not too much, not too little, but juuust right) :bigjoint:
gotcha. i kinda thought about that when i reread it. what you say makes sense! the more oxygen that gets used up... the worse. ok so i'm gonna dial back 1tbsp per gal of molasses to 1tsp and see what happens in that brew. and i'll definitely try and go for the fungal brew as well. i'll try one with kelp, and another with oats just to see if there is any difference.... being that i'm going to be growing mostly lettuces and other greens in this bed... probably want to stick to a mostly bacterial regiment rather than fungal regiment? though i will experiment with both :)

edit: i'm also gonna monitor the brew a little better the next time, check it after 24 hours, 36 hours and see what's going on in there, rather than waiting 48 hours and checking it then. I need to get a notebook so I can keep track of this shit!
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
gotcha. i kinda thought about that when i reread it. what you say makes sense! the more oxygen that gets used up... the worse.
Yeah, it's actually always the same principle as you find in the classic populational pond example ;) I remember it really clicking when I saw a graph with the dissolved oxygen curve superimposed onto the microbial population growth curve. I'm about to dive back into my compost/tea notes, when I find it again I'll make sure to share it with you too :)

ok so i'm gonna dial back 1tbsp per gal of molasses to 1tsp and see what happens in that brew. and i'll definitely try and go for the fungal brew as well. i'll try one with kelp, and another with oats just to see if there is any difference.... being that i'm going to be growing mostly lettuces and other greens in this bed... probably want to stick to a mostly bacterial regiment rather than fungal regiment?
Well it depends :mrgreen:
On what microbial balance, trophic groups, populational diversity the medium has that you're going to treat it with and upon the plants you're trying to grow.
The only thing one can safely assume here is that our soils are by and large lacking in fungi, that's pretty much a given, whilst bacteria are everywhere, and usually the only reason to want to add any of them would be to increase diversity ;)

I count lettuce and greens to the midsuccessional plants (as pretty much all veggie garden annuals), and they thrive best (with all the perks we hope for) in a pretty balanced F:B mass ratio of 0.75 to 1 (which is still rather low, considering the values for, say, a berry bush, are already at 2-5)
You can get a rough idea of whether you're near that from the general appearance without actually assessing for microbial mass: I'm finding that you have somewhere around that ratio when you start seeing lots of fungal hyphae bits per field of view at 100x, with longer strands amongst them, and fungal aggregates appearing every few fields of view too.
But case stories are showing we start reaping the benefits as soon as we get the substrate to shift even just a little bit in that direction. It's amazing, really.

though i will experiment with both :)
edit: i'm also gonna monitor the brew a little better the next time, check it after 24 hours, 36 hours and see what's going on in there, rather than waiting 48 hours and checking it then. I need to get a notebook so I can keep track of this shit!
By all means! experiment and observe! It's the best way to get a feel for it - and answer the questions arising in your mind :razz:
And actually, I do think we can retrain our intuition to understand what is needed to the extent that we no longer even have to check with the microscope all the time, it's just until we get the old-think thoroughly out of our system and develop sound new practices.
Still working on that myself, and will be doing so for another while too, I suspect :bigjoint:
cheers and have a great Easter!
 
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elkamino

Well-Known Member
Hey ShLUbY have you considered amending with cottonseed meal? I've not used it but reading about it its a 5 or 6 Nitrogen and then mild PK (source-dependent) with lots of trace minerals. However it also makes the soil SLIGHTLY ACIDIC... perhaps you'd find it useful?
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Hey ShLUbY have you considered amending with cottonseed meal? I've not used it but reading about it its a 5 or 6 Nitrogen and then mild PK (source-dependent) with lots of trace minerals. However it also makes the soil SLIGHTLY ACIDIC... perhaps you'd find it useful?
i haven't really looked into it. My first impression when i saw cottonseed meal a while ago, I was slightly turned off by it because most of those cotton fields are land that is contaminated with arsenic, and this is the main reason why i would stay away from it. I don't know how much it would carry over... but if you consider, when recycling soil over and over, amending after each run that it could accumulate in your mix over time... or worse yet, ending up in the medicine. I know we can't control every aspect, but it is one I don't want to take a chance with haha.
 

elkamino

Well-Known Member
i haven't really looked into it. My first impression when i saw cottonseed meal a while ago, I was slightly turned off by it because most of those cotton fields are land that is contaminated with arsenic, and this is the main reason why i would stay away from it. I don't know how much it would carry over... but if you consider, when recycling soil over and over, amending after each run that it could accumulate in your mix over time... or worse yet, ending up in the medicine. I know we can't control every aspect, but it is one I don't want to take a chance with haha.
D’oh! Always somethin... but yeah accumulating arsenic sounds terrible! :o Thanks for the beta.
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Pre-98 Bubba Kush 7 Days in, brand new soil mix... so we'll see how this run goes. Planning on topdressing next weekend with compost and 1/2 cup of amendments. This is in a 7gal pumice SIP.

P98BK.jpg

P98BK7Days.jpg

First run with this plant. Just one in flower, just to see how it grows. Have some cuttings in the fridge when the cloner space opens up.
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Confidential Cheese 35 days into flower, in 5 gal pumice SIP containers. Definitely root bound... but still chugging along and showing no signs of deficiency. pH last I checked was about 6.9/7.0, and I gave a 5.0 pH peat extract watering after that reading, so I'm hoping they're finally steady on the slightly acidic side. I plan to give another peat extract this coming weekend just to make sure they're staying in that acidic pH. They look great though IMO, and seem like they're going to have nicer bud development than the large ones I ran last time in the 10 gal fabrics. Really looking forward to seeing these last three weeks of growth on these girls!

ConfidentialCheeseSIP35days.jpg

Also, you can clearly see that my defoliation efforts at the start of week three have been completely regrown after stripping quite a bit away from them! I'll try and get some better shots this coming weekend of buds, it was a busy weekend for me and I didn't have much time for taking pics, but I wanted to at least get one on here!

Here are the Brainwreck in the no-till 20 gal containers. I've also been watering this container with the peat extracts from time to time, and these also got some soil sulfur prills when I topdressed nutrients and compost before flip, i'll be topdressing again this coming weekend, as these are longer running plants (typically 65-70 days... that's long for me anyway haha). I've run them 12 weeks before, but they get soooo couch locky... and it's just not preferred. Anyway these are at 21 days, and I gave them a nice defoliation over the weekend to open up the canopy and give some air flow.

Brainwreck21Days1.jpg

Brainwreck21Days.jpg

Bud development seems right on course... I hope that continues!

That's all for pic updates this week. Hope everyone has a good week! Until next time....

:leaf::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::leaf:
 
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CaptainSnap

Well-Known Member
Good Going Shluby! I really want to upgrade lights as well to some CMH. I have an old one that runs on a magnetic ballast that I use for veg. I had used it for flower before and the trichome production was out of this world! Happy Spring Man
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Good Going Shluby! I really want to upgrade lights as well to some CMH. I have an old one that runs on a magnetic ballast that I use for veg. I had used it for flower before and the trichome production was out of this world! Happy Spring Man
did you see that hortilux is releasing CHPS? like $500 for the ballast/bulb/hood fixture.... the CRI on them is ~82 or 85 or something... compared to ~25 from their normal SE bulbs... pretty friggin huge difference. I'll probably buy one of those and one HLG LED and do a side by side (at opposite ends of the room) to see which one I like better.
 
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CaptainSnap

Well-Known Member
Im not sure if I saw that or not. Recently I was at a local store and he showed me, what I thought was a sun system, hood/ballast/bulb fixture that had a weird vent for just over 500. I'll have to look into it! Also I love home made maple syrup. I was helping friends collect bags from the trees a couple weeks ago around here when it warmed up for a week! Great hobby and best tasting rewards!
 
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