The LED "Arms race".....

Enigma

Well-Known Member
they are good guides. most are reasonably accurate for scaling purposes. i provided one example where one manufacturer's simulator was broken, to satisfy your request.


i can post some observatons of temperature effect with cobs. im not interested in current time at getting exact par/lumen output from any cob as for my purposes its not justified to have a calibrated chain of light sources from nist to me. maybe down the road when i get a bigger sphere to test fixtures

right now i am only interested in relative differences between cobs and can say with fair certainty in multiple tests that veroC isnt a magic bullet, it is essentially identical to a citi 1825 gen 5 at all currents from 0.1 to 3.6A. The test data literally falls right on top of each other.


theyve long since paid for themselves. youre in the gravy zone now

If the 1825 matches the Vero but costs more I'll have to wait until the price drops to consider them.

However, I do need to place seven COBs very close to cover one square meter, possibly 18-12 distance from the emitter. I'm not sure which will be best, I'm still leaning towards the Tasty light engine except I'll be using lower currents to drive them and I probably won't need the beefy heat sink Tasty offers. I might get away with an aluminum extrusion similar to the RapidLED Vero29D fixture, I'd get the RapidLED fixture if it could hold seven, even with two of those I could spread the light evenly.

This is where I will spend extra to have someone CNC holes in the aluminum and tap so I don't ruin it with hand tools.

I'm the end, I hope to increase possible yield by almost 300%, if my calculations are accurate.

I'm so excited, I waited a decade for LEDs to evolve!!!

:leaf:
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
If the 1825 matches the Vero but costs more I'll have to wait until the price drops to consider them.
thats the gen 5 and wont be dropping in price, i might blow mine out at some point to clear inventory. citi is weird they dont drop prices for old models. the gen6 citi1825 are above both the veros and gen5 citis in output
This is where I will spend extra to have someone CNC holes in the aluminum and tap so I don't ruin it with hand tools.
its not hard with a drill press and one of these. i wont tap without it

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-New-Type-Self-Aligning-Align-Tap-Reamer-Holder-4-Jaw-V-Guide-NEW-/351264122527?hash=item51c8f9269f
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
If the 1825 matches the Vero but costs more I'll have to wait until the price drops to consider them.
thats the gen 5 and wont be dropping in price, i might blow mine out at some point to clear inventory. citi is weird they dont drop prices for old models. the gen6 citi1825 are above both the veros and gen5 citis in output at a given wattage
This is where I will spend extra to have someone CNC holes in the aluminum and tap so I don't ruin it with hand tools.
its not hard with a drill press and one of these. i wont tap without it

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-New-Type-Self-Aligning-Align-Tap-Reamer-Holder-4-Jaw-V-Guide-NEW-/351264122527?hash=item51c8f9269f
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Current lights will be "far" behind in a couple of years too though. It's going to be cheaper to replace that old light by new lights because you will save that extra investment back through savings on your electricity bill. Just like the way it made sense to ditch that HPS and buy a led fixture.

Personally I doubt a current leds will be economically viable for more than 3 to 4 years. At the very least it's cheaper now to invest as little as possible and go a bit lower with the efficiency and in two years time replace the whole fixture or keep the old parts and double the COBs to increase there efficiency somewhat and replace the missing wattage with new COBs

In fact my two year old COBs are not even worth that anymore. Efficiency has risen by about 18% while the COBs prices have been cut in half. It's cheaper/easier to replace the COBs with new COBs than to muck about "tripling" them up to salvage the old parts trying to get near the efficiency of current COBs. I can keep the drivers and frame obviously, but going nuts on the led arms race for the leds just doesn't make much sense for DIY.

The bunch of COBs on my first COB fixture which cost me $400 two years ago, could now be replaced by $80 worth of COBs and in return I would save either $64 per year on electricity or keep the wattage the same and harvest more grams because I would have 15% extra light and thus yield.

So technically I could stubbornly keep using it for 10 years, but economically it would be more wise to upgrade/replace the thing. No different with that video card that lasts only a few years effectively.
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Current lights will be "far" behind in a couple of years too though.
hard to say.... i feel that they may be reaching the limits of the tech, as evidenced by how similar competing mfrs products are

i think the best use of old cobs is to drop the current and stack em up to match the efficiency of the newer ones
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
they are good guides. most are reasonably accurate for scaling purposes. i provided one example where one manufacturer's simulator was broken, to satisfy your request.


i can post some observatons of temperature effect with cobs. im not interested in current time at getting exact par/lumen output from any cob as for my purposes its not justified to have a calibrated chain of light sources from nist to me. maybe down the road when i get a bigger sphere to test fixtures

right now i am only interested in relative differences between cobs and can say with fair certainty in multiple tests that veroC isnt a magic bullet, it is essentially identical to a citi 1825 gen 5 at all currents from 0.1 to 3.6A. The test data literally falls right on top of each other.


theyve long since paid for themselves. youre in the gravy zone now
I'll be testing with them for a long time. Even if chips get to be 20% more efficient I'll still be getting good use from them.
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
In fact my two year old COBs are not even worth that anymore. Efficiency has risen by about 18% while the COBs prices have been cut in half. It's cheaper/easier to replace the COBs with new COBs than to muck about "tripling" them up to salvage the old parts trying to get near the efficiency of current COBs. I can keep the drivers and frame obviously, but going nuts on the led arms race for the leds just doesn't make much sense for DIY.
on the flip side of the argument above (sorry didnt read your post all the way thru) this is why i like the industry standard sized cobs. anybody who bought $8 citi 1212s are in line for an easy upgrade to the next gen of cobs coming in 2018 (cxm22 gen4/1818 gen 7/whatever b-lux and cree have coming out)
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
its not hard with a drill press and one of these. i wont tap without it

I'm very familiar with drilling and tapping from years of working in the automotive industry, I couldn't keep my hands clean it seems.

Now, I feel old. The time and money it would cost me to acquire new tools after liquidating my storage unit would be better spent with my pups.

I'll pay for this service, they can use a machine to drill and tap at a far higher accuracy than I ever could.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
@CobKits, Yes, I'd put more trust in replacing them than in doubling them up. I'd really have to "triple them up" already to compete with current COBs/led strips.

With pre drilled heat sinks you'd only have to replace the COB holder if the COB has a different size. Perhaps slightly less convenient than simply replacing the COB, but not that much of an issue either.

It might not move as fast again as the last 2 years, but I'm pretty sure from now to 3 to 4 years in the future the same step forward will have been made. These things will start hitting mainstream more and more and prices will tumble further. In a sense that's also the equivalent of increasing the efficiency.

Technology will shift too. Right now I guess I'd rather go for low to medium intensity led strips than COBs (or boards). Much easier to turn into a fixture with little cost in cooling and better light distribution. Strips also seem to be coming down in price even faster than COBs.

Not sure if that will ever become a viable option, but as much as people seem to detest purple lights here, a purple coating on a Citizen COB does offer some extra efficiency too. They are just way too expensive to make them worth it. That could change too.
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
It might not move as fast again as the last 2 years, but I'm pretty sure from now to 3 to 4 years in the future the same step forward will have been made. These things will start hitting mainstream more and more and prices will tumble further. In a sense that's also the equivalent of increasing the efficiency.
for sure

think of every mall, every stadium every streetlight every office. led market will be 10x what it is now
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
for sure

think of every mall, every stadium every streetlight every office. led market will be 10x what it is now
My city is already deep into a program of replacing all HPS streetlights with LED.

Every time I turn around I see more LED lighting, so this process is well underway.

My only concern is that due to the longevity of LED lighting, the manufacturers will have a hard time building long term demand lol
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
A lot depends on if you view this as a hobby or as a business.

Hobbyists get away with trying new things in the pursuit of whatever they deem as desirable. Fun.

Entrepreneurs can't get away with trying new things without taking a risk. Not so fun.

Every single entrepreneur in the history of man-kind took a risk going into business, men like Tesla were taken advantage of and lied about.

Talk about conspiracy.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
A lot depends on if you view this as a hobby or as a business.

Hobbyists get away with trying new things in the pursuit of whatever they deem as desirable. Fun.

Entrepreneurs can't get away with trying new things without taking a risk. Not so fun.
The whole point of entrepreneurialism is to take a risk on something new.

If it isn't fun, get a job. It isn't for everyone.
 

Chip Green

Well-Known Member
I'm just barely getting my feet wet in this whole realm. I simplified as much as I could with my starter builds. They work as well as they need to for my current skill level. As that grows, maybe in time my lighting could dial in tighter, but that's a ways down the path I do believe....
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
My city is already deep into a program of replacing all HPS streetlights with LED.

Every time I turn around I see more LED lighting, so this process is well underway.

My only concern is that due to the longevity of LED lighting, the manufacturers will have a hard time building long term demand lol
They noticed a big issue with the led traffic signals in the northern states right away........ they don't generate enough heat to melt ice/ snow off themselves; oops......kinda important: )
 
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Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Its everywhere....I mean do I really need 6 chainsaws and enough logging and soil testing gear to outfit a platoon...probably not, but the arms race is everywhere and literally everyone is involved in some way throughout this crazy.....name something that doesn't have a subset of crazy dedicated attached to it :)

good post, OP
@Chip Green
 
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