Short path distillation vs butane extraction or QWET?

MikeGanja

Well-Known Member
I have a question about short path distillation. Perhaps it´s a really stupid question, if so I apologize:

The equipment for short path distillation process is expensive and I understand that you need certain skills in order to produce a clean high quality extract. If you fail, the extract would be lost or turned into an unpleasant dark material.

I would love to buy some more lab gadgets and learn this process but I keep asking myself what the pros and cons are with short path distillation vs BHO closed loop extration or QWET?
 

gwpharms

Well-Known Member
Short path is very tricky. Those guys selling diy kits make it look like something anyone can do. Just remember these guys are salesmen. Their youtube videos are more infomercial more than instructional
Its the latest accessory to go along with the bho fad. Short path is a good way to clean up a wax derivative but theres still wax in there after you winterize so it makes your compound a little harder to distill. Polar/non polar extracts are like comparing apples and oranges....there both fruit but..........get away from the wax derivitives and the universe will open up for you. There is lots of ways to separate a cannabis oil compound into "fractions"
Water or etoh would extract oils terps and chlophyll. Chlorophyll is easy to remove on minutes with no solvents. I can distill the terps and cbc cbd oils out of my etoh extarct, leaving "the clear" behind in my boiling flask so i never have to get up to those high temps where things may get thst burnt rubber taste. Iso works well too. You would need a closed loop extractor for these in order to get a complete extraction. More than a quick wash will yield. You also need a really good vacuum pump in order to achieve that magic temperature 2 pressure ratio so as to avoid the burnt rubber oil. These kits are just lab gear these guys have marked up 300% or more. Unfortunately they have struck up deals with most of the glassmakers so they will not directly sell their short path Steelheads for less than what these guys are selling it for in their kits. In 1995 I bought my last short path for $40 and it has all the same features that the $700 ones have. Ridiculous.
Make sure you have a mantle that can heat that high whilst the vacuum is steeling your heat.
I'd say by the glassware and get into this slowly and experiment along the way. Try short path distilling some salicylic acid and making phenol. Technically this is not fractioning because phenol is made by the decarboxylation of salicylic acid at 220 degrees but it will give you a feel for hot vapor distillation and how this thing will go for you. and give you an idea of what other toys you will need.
Its a very skilled process, short path.
The pope aparatus is the turn key idiot proof thc machine thats really expensive but once you've burnt a few ounces of the clear it will start sounding like a sweet deal.
I did recently purchse another short path (like 2 years ago)
I found them all over priced because of this fad but i did find on layboy website
Short path vacuum jacketed with viragex indents and 25mm imersion thermometer for about $120 or $150. Way less than $500- $700
Layboy was the only glass manufacturer that did not strike up a non compete deal with these guys selling kits. Its good quality glass too
 

MikeGanja

Well-Known Member
Thanks Gwpharms and Fadedawg for explaining the basics. I agree with the infomercial problem. Can you recomend any litterature that covers the short path distillation? I found Wolfgang Jorisch "Vacuum technology in the chemical industry", it looks interesting. Perhaps doing some reading and then train with the salicylic acid distillation is the best way to get started. My new hobby makes me really regret that I didn't choose another career and studied organic chemistry. :)
 

gwpharms

Well-Known Member
Text books, shop around there's several . Nothing good for free on google.
Older text can be gotten cheap. Current ones are very expensive.

Your looking for molecular sortong/distillation or hot vapor distillation.


Read patents already existing. There are many

Your ultimately looking to fraction cannabis oil via short path hot vapor distillation

Get your Zubrick if you haven't already.
Read sasha shulgins work, if only for fun.
get off google. Go to a college text book store perhaps.

If you don't already, use TOR search engines at least if you have to do it all online. Dont waste your time with most of everything on google you tube or entite surface web
Study the 4 corner stones of chem
Extraction distillation filtration recrystallization
Start modeling molecules

Extract some essential oils from something non cannabis.
If you make coffe i guess you already are
A good chemist can make anything just by starting with h2o
Your kind of jumping into this right in the middle.you may have to go to the beginning. Its years of prerequisite study before one gets their hands on any of this stuff your talking about.
Mathematics molecular modeling biology and so on
Learn that periodic table
Learn those formulaic equations
Thats how the universe works and how you make it work for you
 

MikeGanja

Well-Known Member
Excellent! I start with Zubricks "The organic chem lab survival manual: a student's guide to techniqies". It's added to my shopping list.
 

gwpharms

Well-Known Member
Excellent! I start with Zubricks "The organic chem lab survival manual: a student's guide to techniqies". It's added to my shopping list.
Good fundamental stuff in zubrick. Get an older eddition and its about $2 used.
I think its up to 1 4th eddition? I dont know
Forgot to mention
Learn to keep a notebook. And do it.
Learn how to read and follow someone elses note book
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
Here is my set up for simple ultra short path distillation. This is set is basic however it works very well. Be cautious of any online retailer of short path kits. I recently sent one an example of this video - Imhad seen an online complaint about their systems not working and their reponse online to,their customer was to double check the themometer well vacuum grease! This is not ehat prevents a pull down under 100 microns lolz.

This major online retailer of "short path" distillaiton equipment has several major tech errors in their system and seems to have just thrown together a kit from a quick read of Wikipedia about short path distillation. This guy responded that I had simply installed my pirani sensor in the wrong place to achieve ¾ of a micro vacuum! Lolz, he asserted that the pressure sensor must be inside the boiling flask for the readings to be meaningful!!! He then went on to inform me from his business email account that, "... your readings are meaningless because you placed the vacuum sensor after the gas has condensed."

Well, I did not bother asking the guy to try to come up with any additional bullshit to try to explain how on Earth anyone can possibly position a vacuum sensor inside the boiling flask, but my point is that this guy posts all over the internet about distillation but ignores technical flaws in the sytems he sells, and clearly does not sell the correct vscuum system components (red rubber hose is in his kits which is contraindicated for molecular distillation and which is whynhis customers fight vacuum issues) favoring instead explanations that cannot possibly be correct. For my application the Pirani sensor is the best choice and the positioning is correct according to vacuubrand who manufactures the sensor - " ... we are unaware of inaccuracies in readings from our sensors when installed as depicted."

Be VERY cautious when any salesman selling a Welch pump with red rubber hose tells you about what is needed because he or she is locking you into a real nightmare with eternally chasing the temperatures all around and 20-50C higher than is possible with a tight vacuum. You may even be told the system works great, but it is your own placement of (fill in the blank) that makes a multi thousand dollar commitment not work.

Here is a post of how I do it. There are only a couple inches of polymer tubing to couple things then stainless steel bellows otherwise for hose. This rig proves that distillation at 140C is possible at a vacuum of ¾ of one micron.

My suggestion is to avoid the salesman selling packages and learn for yourself what is needed. I would not invest in a Welch 1400 and certainly if you see a kit with one offered alongside orange rubber vacuum hose then understand that you are being sold a real headache because it means the folks selling it to you do not understand something fundamental about the process and likely will portray their knowledge as "expert".

Both vids are the same rig but second vid had thermometer placed one inch over top of boiling puddle inside boiling flask. This temp of 140C agrees with previous measurements during other setups I have done including my traditional short path head rig (not shown).

THC boils at 140C at a vacuum of ¾ of one micron as shown in the second video.

 

Jozikins

Well-Known Member
Short path is very tricky. Those guys selling diy kits make it look like something anyone can do. Just remember these guys are salesmen. Their youtube videos are more infomercial more than instructional
Its the latest accessory to go along with the bho fad. Short path is a good way to clean up a wax derivative but theres still wax in there after you winterize so it makes your compound a little harder to distill. Polar/non polar extracts are like comparing apples and oranges....there both fruit but..........get away from the wax derivitives and the universe will open up for you. There is lots of ways to separate a cannabis oil compound into "fractions"
Water or etoh would extract oils terps and chlophyll. Chlorophyll is easy to remove on minutes with no solvents. I can distill the terps and cbc cbd oils out of my etoh extarct, leaving "the clear" behind in my boiling flask so i never have to get up to those high temps where things may get thst burnt rubber taste. Iso works well too. You would need a closed loop extractor for these in order to get a complete extraction. More than a quick wash will yield. You also need a really good vacuum pump in order to achieve that magic temperature 2 pressure ratio so as to avoid the burnt rubber oil. These kits are just lab gear these guys have marked up 300% or more. Unfortunately they have struck up deals with most of the glassmakers so they will not directly sell their short path Steelheads for less than what these guys are selling it for in their kits. In 1995 I bought my last short path for $40 and it has all the same features that the $700 ones have. Ridiculous.
Make sure you have a mantle that can heat that high whilst the vacuum is steeling your heat.
I'd say by the glassware and get into this slowly and experiment along the way. Try short path distilling some salicylic acid and making phenol. Technically this is not fractioning because phenol is made by the decarboxylation of salicylic acid at 220 degrees but it will give you a feel for hot vapor distillation and how this thing will go for you. and give you an idea of what other toys you will need.
Its a very skilled process, short path.
The pope aparatus is the turn key idiot proof thc machine thats really expensive but once you've burnt a few ounces of the clear it will start sounding like a sweet deal.
I did recently purchse another short path (like 2 years ago)
I found them all over priced because of this fad but i did find on layboy website
Short path vacuum jacketed with viragex indents and 25mm imersion thermometer for about $120 or $150. Way less than $500- $700
Layboy was the only glass manufacturer that did not strike up a non compete deal with these guys selling kits. Its good quality glass too
@thump easy read this and the whole thread
 

thump easy

Well-Known Member
This shit so easy...anyone and i mean anyone can do it... I learned on line just from the info and i showed jozzikins fucken easy....
 

thump easy

Well-Known Member
Im just kidding but really it aint hard at all even dewax turns to gold even diamonds the ugly est shit you ever seen turn to for reals it will become comen eddicat and its not that hard god bless your heart but yes take free MIT online youtube and your good to go also have comen sense also dont be a fucken dick once you learn and dont act like gods gift to erb like me. Jk but realy its easy and if you want MIT is were i learned about tissue culture its basic shit i think woodworking is harder.!!!!!
 

thump easy

Well-Known Member
Learn about glass ware first what you need as far as thickness so you can pull vacumm if you buy non explosive pump by the ones that dont corode buy plenty of hose that shit stinks after second round learn about evaporation dile your shit in as far as pump vac controler to evaporate solvents grease your monkey or youll seaze your head.. Youll understand me later in time... Qwote my words also have pump oil and use dry ice its your friend dewax the fuck out of it a few times it helps pull your fractions way faster or youll be their all day stairing in a glass ball woundering what the hell happend to that one guy in highschool and what ever happend to miss yarnell from 3rd grade or james auston and then you realize dam a gang of hours just flew out the window and you snap back to woundering when you main body is gona go off and then ther she blow maities rrrrrrr Just kidding but realy dial in your temps dont go to high check out boiling points on google and fraction off your life away... Make shure you fraction more than one time and practice makes perfect aslo do take and read organic chemestry all kinds not just the short path youtuve solvent boiling points and diffent techneaks. Im intrested in comatrography column right at this moment and all those bags of used coffee filters from back in the day imshure theres tons of oil in those i want to learn terp tech? But thats my take on it im no expert but dam its not that hard.im looking to play with a few more peases just to see what happeneds id like to take ethenol and dunk blasted material to see if i can extract the rest of the terps and this thingView attachment 4013937Screenshot_2017-09-21-00-24-57.png i know there terps left over i want to get them mabe keif the left over and use this apparatus or just go deeper thers gota be another way
 
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squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
Water or etoh would extract oils terps and chlophyll. Chlorophyll is easy to remove on minutes with no solvents.
this is interesting, I was surprised to hear this was possible.

Do you have any links or guides you can link me to where I could learn more about this?
 

thump easy

Well-Known Member
Lets exchange some info terps how r you guys grabin your turps is it threw terp trap from oven i been checking this out i wounder if after material is run if there is terps left i dont want to miss out on any terps.
except his folosafi... I wounder what hes smoken on lolz
 
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gwpharms

Well-Known Member
this is interesting, I was surprised to hear this was possible.

Do you have any links or guides you can link me to where I could learn more about this?
Filtration through avtivated carbon pad and celite 545 or hyflo super cel removes chlorophyll and contaminates. It'll also remove your terps so get them out before and re introduce them to pure extract.
If you want to learn how read a text book. Go to school.Get off internet forums
 

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gwpharms

Well-Known Member
Learn about glass ware first what you need as far as thickness so you can pull vacumm if you buy non explosive pump by the ones that dont corode buy plenty of hose that shit stinks after second round learn about evaporation dile your shit in as far as pump vac controler to evaporate solvents grease your monkey or youll seaze your head.. Youll understand me later in time... Qwote my words also have pump oil and use dry ice its your friend dewax the fuck out of it a few times it helps pull your fractions way faster or youll be their all day stairing in a glass ball woundering what the hell happend to that one guy in highschool and what ever happend to miss yarnell from 3rd grade or james auston and then you realize dam a gang of hours just flew out the window and you snap back to woundering when you main body is gona go off and then ther she blow maities rrrrrrr Just kidding but realy dial in your temps dont go to high check out boiling points on google and fraction off your life away... Make shure you fraction more than one time and practice makes perfect aslo do take and read organic chemestry all kinds not just the short path youtuve solvent boiling points and diffent techneaks. Im intrested in comatrography column right at this moment and all those bags of used coffee filters from back in the day imshure theres tons of oil in those i want to learn terp tech? But thats my take on it im no expert but dam its not that hard.im looking to play with a few more peases just to see what happeneds id like to take ethenol and dunk blasted material to see if i can extract the rest of the terps and this thingView attachment 4013937View attachment 4013938 i know there terps left over i want to get them mabe keif the left over and use this apparatus or just go deeper thers gota be another way
That is a soxhlet. Its what we use. Not sure what kind of volume you plan to process but we Need to run 10 of these inline to extract 5 pounds of material.
 

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thump easy

Well-Known Member
That is a soxhlet. Its what we use. Not sure what kind of volume you plan to process but we Need to run 10 of these inline to extract 5 pounds of material.
Ow shit finally a wounderfull mind .!!! Thank you.. Im trying to experment as to fraction terps i want to open a terp store with real terpine derived from mmj but dam thats a great set up.. I hope you dont mind but i will be asking you plenty of question :)!! I have access to alot of work.. :) thats asome you are collecting terps? Thats asome!!!! Im amazed i have a smile you wouldnt believe what are your return waits of crude outdoor indoor??? Verses bho??? Is it ethenol is it water? Fucken a excuse my vocabulary but at last i got someone to respond... Thank You!!
 
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gwpharms

Well-Known Member
Ow shit finally a wounderfull mind .!!! Thank you.. Im trying to experment as to fraction terps i want to open a terp store with real terpine derived from mmj but dam thats a great set up.. I hope you dont mind but i will be asking you plenty of question :)!! I have access to alot of work.. :) thats asome you are collecting terps? Thats asome!!!! Im amazed i have a smile you wouldnt believe what are your return waits of crude outdoor indoor??? Verses bho??? Is it ethenol is it water? Fucken a excuse my vocabulary but at last i got someone to respond... Thank You!!
Whats in that video are steam distillation apparatus. You would need aa chromotography resivour flask and a condensor. It would put those aromatics in hydrosol and can be concentrated from there.
My thc returns off my soxhlet extractions vary greatly . Depends on many tricombs are in there for me to disolve. Running kief is much more efficient.
Terpenes are becoming big. People prefer a pure distillate oil to wax or shatter but they want those terpenes. Very proprietary stuff your looking to learn. Lots of people working on it now.Good luck
 
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