help me sort out potassium options?

im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
the potash granules in the water are still not even close to fully dissolved after 24hors

itll be interesting to see how long it takes for the sample to dissolve
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
the green sand has a relatively high amount of K

maybe I just gotta keep on adding in the soluble K until the green sand starts to break down
Click to expand...
Green sand is truly a slow release nutrient source, Lasts around longer then year+. Doesn't even start to help for several long months. Thing about it is it's a limited resource as it's mined and is being used fast.
The guys at Build a soil.com don't suggest it's use, nor do they use it themselves. Now due to it's long life and slow release. We do use it on certain fields, every cpl of years or so.
'
im4satori said:
that's a lot of Mn

I would also consider how that much Mn might affect your zinc uptake, as I understand it theres a balancing between them

the 5ppm iron wouldn't scare me nor would high amounts of sulfur
that's all they get down in florida is sulfur water so strong it smells like rotten eggs or iron water that turns the side walks orange and the farmers don't have any issues

I have noticed that high amounts of iron can reduce P uptake so you may find a need for a mild increased P in your mix

but that all relates to my hydro experience, I cant speak directly to soil

thanks for the help with sorting out the K...
Click to expand...
The real key in soil is to test it. You want to end up around 100 ppm of Mn and Fe. That would be for building a soil and for the re-amended goal too.

It should be noted, that mix by Mel. Is the amounts put in a gallon of RO. You then use a tsp. of that liquid mix monthly. Your Mn is now delivered at a low ppm ratio over a period of time.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
id love to hear from

@Wetdog
@greasemonkeymann
@Dr. Who
@calliandra

to help me sort out my confusion over the potassium sulfate vs the sulfate of potash

are they basically the same exact thing only one is finer screened than the other
does the sulfate of potash break down slowly as to release over time and not create a hot EC environment that affects biology if cooked in

if I cook in 1/4 cup per cubic ft of potassium sulfate fine powder isn't it the same thing as using liquid soluble salt fertilizers that reduce biology at high EC?

http://rollitup.org/t/lets-get-dirty.937239/page-13#post-13805090

if you can take some time to look at my NPK slurry results in my journal and help me sort out how to adjust id really appreciate it

you don't have to read thru the journal as I know its time consuming, maybe just check out my last few posts

thank you
Click to expand...
ok, sorry I haven't had much extra time recently to be around much.
For potassium the general rule of thumb is this, you want plant based forms of it.
period.
I don't recommend using langbeinite unless the mix is being composted also.
I prefer the following as sources of potassium
alfalfa meal
comfrey

COMPOST (remember anything plant based is going to have an already useable form of potasium in it.
manures are good sources of it
last but not least?
use coco for part of your growing media, it degrades slowly and releases potassium over time, that's what you want.
you do NOT want a soluble form as it'll likely fuck up the cation ratio, and particularly lock out calcium, remember calcium is taken up the same way as potassium only at about a 5th of the rate, so too much K will mess up the calcium uptake, and that's crucial.

I do not recommend using langbeinite unless you are really familiar with it, it's great to use but being so soluble and waaay lopsided on the cation ratio it does have the ability to cause problems.
typically potassium defs can be easily fixed with a simple topdress of compost or alfalfa meal or what not.

one thing I keep telling people (somehow keeeeps going ignored)
soil tests for organics is reaaaaally something that you shouldn't bank too much on, the availability of the nutrients changes as it's being converted by the microbial interaction, whats soluble, whats not, things like bone meal, feather meal crab meal etc, those aren't going to show up on a test if it's not soluble..
so a test is inconclusive at best...

the very very simple rule to live for an inside grow in containers is that LESS is best, if you are new to the soil mixing, a good rule is this, whatever YOU think is a good amount of nutrients to have in the mix?
cut it in half.
try and limit the amounts of nutrients that are high in ANY one nutrient.
fish bone meals, bone meal, langbeinite, bat guanos, etc
you want LOW relatively even amounts of all macros.
it's why I recommend using composted manures for newer growers.
alfalfa meal, comfrey, etc, those are low in their nutrient content, BUT are available much much faster, and that amount is slowly released, that's what you want.

if your soil is in fact low on potassium, i'd simply add a good amount of coco as the growing media, and some alfalfa meal.
or steer manure
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
ok
so im going to change the feed mix to just kelp and alfalfa for a bit and I might add 3 oz (per cubic ft) sulfate of potash at least until I can get the K up when the other stuff becomes avialble

its not only the soil tests

actually it was the signs of K def that had prompted the soil tests to begin with

the soil tests just confirmed what I could already see
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
ok
so im going to change the feed mix to just kelp and alfalfa for a bit and I might add 3 oz (per cubic ft) sulfate of potash at least until I can get the K up when the other stuff becomes avialble

its not only the soil tests

actually it was the signs of K def that had prompted the soil tests to begin with

the soil tests just confirmed what I could already see
Click to expand...
As of the last thread I did on Fe/Mn and what they do to for increasing CBD/THC. I did some testing of soil to "see" what those levels were and how they increased by my amending. I can get where I want now by knowing what the changes were by those amendments. Did 2 confirmation tests and just amend by known data now. It was only for data on the Mn and Fe....

Point being that Grease is correct. Testing organic soil is like kissing your sister.o_O You shouldn't and the results can be bad. :spew:
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
I keep it kinda simple with the K.

Kelp meal that I buy in 50# bags. Thorvin organic.

Greensand (when I can afford it)), added either to the mix or, added to the worm bins. Not for the worms per se, but to get a start on the breakdown.

DynaGro Protekt, about 1/4 to 1/2 tsp/gallon of water for spot watering every few weeks, mainly when I think of it. Provides both silica and a bit of K. Actual amount is 1/2Tbl/5 gallon bucket.

But, the main, main go to is the kelp meal. Kelp meal is also added to the worm bins along with comfrey (a main food source), alfalfa pellets, neem meal and stuff, so the VC is pretty rich with broken down available stuff and gets used pretty liberally.

I just don't mess with high % K sources anymore, finding (like GMM mentioned), a light constant source(s), works best.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
my goal is to get the K built into the soil and not have as much need to water in fertilizers

im already using kelp at a rate of 2 parts in my amendment mix but still not getting enough K from that and im not sure to what point the kelp becomes too much

my last batch I made the soil amendment mix like this

2part kelp
1 part crab
1part neem
1 part alfalfa
1/2 part fish

and I used about 2 cups per cb ft

the more recent recycle I used
2part kelp
2part alfalfa
1part neem
1part crab
1/2 part fish

and I also added some feather meal and bone meal to stretch things out a bit longer
the bone meal I only intend on adding small amounts every other recycle
the feather meal will become a std part of my mix in the future and eventually I might drop the fish meal when ive used up what I have

I also added about 3/4 cup green sand per cb ft but that wont start to put out any K for a long while
Click to expand...
I JUST got the time to read over the thread man, with the ingredients you are describing I am almost positive you don't have a potassium def.
I don't care what the test says.
not unless you are in tiny, tiny containers.
OR if you didn't get the nutrients mixed well, but neem, kelp, and alfalfa all have a good amount of potassium in them, and in plant forms so it's readily available.

keep in mind nearly ALL cation issues will manifest themselves nearly identical to a k def.
just something you should consider, as I suspect that trying to correct the def is gonna give you hell.
are you using compost?
castings?
both of those also have a good amount of k in them.

Crucial to remember that something overlooked like insufficient aeration/drainage, and/or too big of containers can cause the sol to retain too much water, and too moist/anaerobic mixes will look identical to a cation issue.
in decades of growing and helping others dial in their mixes, this is the MOST commonly misdiagnosed problem.

By far.
And it's not even close, and for whatever reason growers dig their heels in stubbornly and ignore that, insisting that it's obviously a k def and continue trying to correct the problem, I've seen that a BUNCH.
In fact it really has been a long ass time since I've seen an actual K def, almost always it's something else causing it.

chicken before the egg.

Organic soils with a humus-heavy mix retain a LOT of water. If you haven't made a mix like that before and water "normally" it's likely that it's anaerobic.
so for what that's worth, I urge you to double check all that.

aeration and drainage in particular.

tell me more about the soil mix man.
whats in it?
peat or coco?
compost or castings?

Get me a picture of it.




Personally I do not like mixing the nutrients together like that, cuz then it's impossible to tell how much of what you have.
settling, density discrepancies, etc those will mess up your ratios.


also remember that feather meal has a lot of arsenic in it, they use some sort of de-feathering technique or whatnot that does that.
hers a link on it
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969711014306

sucks too cuz it's a great source of slow release nitrogen.
BUT, good news is that doghair, human hair, or hoof/horn meal is the same stuff, minus the arsenic
I use beard shavings and dog hair in my compost pile for slow release nitrogen
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
I JUST got the time to read over the thread man, with the ingredients you are describing I am almost positive you don't have a potassium def.
I don't care what the test says.
not unless you are in tiny, tiny containers.
OR if you didn't get the nutrients mixed well, but neem, kelp, and alfalfa all have a good amount of potassium in them, and in plant forms so it's readily available.

keep in mind nearly ALL cation issues will manifest themselves nearly identical to a k def.
just something you should consider, as I suspect that trying to correct the def is gonna give you hell.
are you using compost?
castings?
both of those also have a good amount of k in them.

Crucial to remember that something overlooked like insufficient aeration/drainage, and/or too big of containers can cause the sol to retain too much water, and too moist/anaerobic mixes will look identical to a cation issue.
in decades of growing and helping others dial in their mixes, this is the MOST commonly misdiagnosed problem.

By far.
And it's not even close, and for whatever reason growers dig their heels in stubbornly and ignore that, insisting that it's obviously a k def and continue trying to correct the problem, I've seen that a BUNCH.
In fact it really has been a long ass time since I've seen an actual K def, almost always it's something else causing it.

chicken before the egg.

Organic soils with a humus-heavy mix retain a LOT of water. If you haven't made a mix like that before and water "normally" it's likely that it's anaerobic.
so for what that's worth, I urge you to double check all that.

aeration and drainage in particular.

tell me more about the soil mix man.
whats in it?
peat or coco?
compost or castings?

Get me a picture of it.




Personally I do not like mixing the nutrients together like that, cuz then it's impossible to tell how much of what you have.
settling, density discrepancies, etc those will mess up your ratios.


also remember that feather meal has a lot of arsenic in it, they use some sort of de-feathering technique or whatnot that does that.
hers a link on it
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969711014306

sucks too cuz it's a great source of slow release nitrogen.
BUT, good news is that doghair, human hair, or hoof/horn meal is the same stuff, minus the arsenic
I use beard shavings and dog hair in my compost pile for slow release nitrogen
Click to expand...

I hear what your saying and appreciate it

I think my original mix was heavy on N and likely would have been better off without the fish meal (as you said to avoid the use of fertilizer that are excessively high in any one number, the fish meal is all N)
had I made the mix differently the proportions of K in the mix would have increased (as you said) using the kelp, alfalfa, neem alone (without the fish meal) those amendments containing K would have increased proportionately

another thing
when I recycled the soil I didn't add any additional compost because I felt like the soil was not well aerated and pooling so I recycled the soil to allow for more drainage and didn't add more compost
my original mix was coats 1/3 peat,compost,perlite
I added biochar to help with drainage but zero compost when I recycled it

ultimately I did add some potash and green sand to try and off set the original mix
either way its not much so I don't think I hurt anything

1/4 cup potash per cb ft
3/4 cup green sand per cubic ft
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
I also watered in good amounts of potassium sulfate (water soluble) and the younger plants (in week 3 of bloom) are not having showing any issues yet and are looking real healthy all the way to the bottom

it really wasn't a problem until mid bloom before I started noticing the K def (or at least what I felt was K def)

I had high temps during that time so that also might plat a roll in the potassium needs
 
S

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
"Mel Frank offers this micronutrient formula for high cannabinoid production: Fe-sulfate (5 mg/gal), Cu-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Mn-sulfate (2 mg/gal), Zn-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Boric acid (2 mg/gal), Molybdenic acid (0.1 mg/gal). Use 1 tspn/gal of nutrient solution, once monthly."
Click to expand...
Hey Guys some good info here for people , I don't want to butt in but I have a question for the values above. In soil do you guys try to run those value for the whole grow start to finish or do you adjust them depending on the stage of the plant. IE veg. pre-flower, flower and finishing. I can't speak for soil but for hydro depending on the stage those values change some increase or decrease, can that be done in soil and is it done in soil. just educating myself thats why i ask
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
southernguy99 said:
Hey Guys some good info here for people , I don't want to butt in but I have a question for the values above. In soil do you guys try to run those value for the whole grow start to finish or do you adjust them depending on the stage of the plant. IE veg. pre-flower, flower and finishing. I can't speak for soil but for hydro depending on the stage those values change some increase or decrease, can that be done in soil and is it done in soil. just educating myself thats why i ask
Click to expand...
im sorry, not sure what your question is

are you asking about the values for mixing soluble fertilizers? or are you asking about the values his soil test resulted when you sent it to the lab? or are you referring to the change in the plants needs thru growth

im just not finding the question
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
southernguy99 said:
Hey Guys some good info here for people , I don't want to butt in but I have a question for the values above. In soil do you guys try to run those value for the whole grow start to finish or do you adjust them depending on the stage of the plant. IE veg. pre-flower, flower and finishing. I can't speak for soil but for hydro depending on the stage those values change some increase or decrease, can that be done in soil and is it done in soil. just educating myself thats why i ask
Click to expand...
This is the mix ratio for a gallon of the supplement. This mix is for raising CBD. To raise THC, raise the MN level to equal to the Fe sulfate.
1 tsp per month. Change nothing else.. At least that's Mel's rate of use.
 
Buba Blend

Buba Blend

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
I JUST got the time to read over the thread man, with the ingredients you are describing I am almost positive you don't have a potassium def.
I don't care what the test says.
not unless you are in tiny, tiny containers.
OR if you didn't get the nutrients mixed well, but neem, kelp, and alfalfa all have a good amount of potassium in them, and in plant forms so it's readily available.

keep in mind nearly ALL cation issues will manifest themselves nearly identical to a k def.
just something you should consider, as I suspect that trying to correct the def is gonna give you hell.
are you using compost?
castings?
both of those also have a good amount of k in them.

Crucial to remember that something overlooked like insufficient aeration/drainage, and/or too big of containers can cause the sol to retain too much water, and too moist/anaerobic mixes will look identical to a cation issue.
in decades of growing and helping others dial in their mixes, this is the MOST commonly misdiagnosed problem.

By far.
And it's not even close, and for whatever reason growers dig their heels in stubbornly and ignore that, insisting that it's obviously a k def and continue trying to correct the problem, I've seen that a BUNCH.
In fact it really has been a long ass time since I've seen an actual K def, almost always it's something else causing it.

chicken before the egg.

Organic soils with a humus-heavy mix retain a LOT of water. If you haven't made a mix like that before and water "normally" it's likely that it's anaerobic.
so for what that's worth, I urge you to double check all that.

aeration and drainage in particular.

tell me more about the soil mix man.
whats in it?
peat or coco?
compost or castings?

Get me a picture of it.




Personally I do not like mixing the nutrients together like that, cuz then it's impossible to tell how much of what you have.
settling, density discrepancies, etc those will mess up your ratios.


also remember that feather meal has a lot of arsenic in it, they use some sort of de-feathering technique or whatnot that does that.
hers a link on it
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969711014306

sucks too cuz it's a great source of slow release nitrogen.
BUT, good news is that doghair, human hair, or hoof/horn meal is the same stuff, minus the arsenic
I use beard shavings and dog hair in my compost pile for slow release nitrogen
Click to expand...
Dog hair, I'm going to try it as I have a constant supply from a 120 lb shepard. Always saw him as my CO2 generator. I just read another benefit he offers regularly. In fact this could be the secret to taking MJ to the next level.
Google: what gas is in a fart?
A typical fart is composed of about 59 percent nitrogen, 21 percent hydrogen, 9 percent carbon dioxide, 7 percent methane and 4 percent oxygen. Only about one percent of a fart contains hydrogen sulfide gas and mercaptans, which contain sulfur, and the sulfur is what makes farts stink.
 
S

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
sorry trying not to be technical , but in a hydro system , mixing your own nutes , and through lab testing, one could suggest that the micronutrient formula should change a fair bit depending on the plants stage, in veg. the micronutrient formula will be different then the pre-flower and again different in the flower stage. this is easily done in hydro by draining a flushing and changing mixture for next stage. so my question is , in soil can this be done, or is it even as important to run a specific micronutrient formula in soil for each stage to achieve the Higher THC etc. where as in soil a happy medium micronutrient formula maybe all thats needed through the grow cycle​
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
southernguy99 said:
sorry trying not to be technical , but in a hydro system , mixing your own nutes , and through lab testing, one could suggest that the micronutrient formula should change a fair bit depending on the plants stage, in veg. the micronutrient formula will be different then the pre-flower and again different in the flower stage. this is easily done in hydro by draining a flushing and changing mixture for next stage. so my question is , in soil can this be done, or is it even as important to run a specific micronutrient formula in soil for each stage to achieve the Higher THC etc. where as in soil a happy medium micronutrient formula maybe all thats needed through the grow cycle​
Click to expand...
ive not read up on the info @Dr. Who is referring to
if theres a link id love to read it

but I can add my 2 cents based on my experience and memory of what ive read/learned in my hydro years and from mixing my own raw salts and concentrates

in soil I assume the buffering capacity would have a different effect than in hydro that has little to zero buffering capabilities in many cases

im curious about your suggestion that micro nutrient needs change by stage, do you have any literature or plant tissue samples to show these changes? that would be interesting

I might also point out there are cation (cat-ion) and anion (an-ion) relationships in micro nutrients just as there are in macro nutrients
so increasing a micro nutrient to an extreme level such as 5ppm Mn is likely to have an extreme effect on and possible reduce or completely lockout zinc and or iron in a hydro style grow

in soil having the buffering im not sure I could make the same statement having much less experience in soil than I do in hydro

most hydro fertilizers will provide something around 0.5 ppm +/- Mn in a solution with not more than 1.0ppm zinc and maybe 1.5 to 2.5 ppm iron

so 5.0 ppm Mn is a shit ton of Mn
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
I JUST got the time to read over the thread man, with the ingredients you are describing I am almost positive you don't have a potassium def.
I don't care what the test says.
not unless you are in tiny, tiny containers.
OR if you didn't get the nutrients mixed well, but neem, kelp, and alfalfa all have a good amount of potassium in them, and in plant forms so it's readily available.

keep in mind nearly ALL cation issues will manifest themselves nearly identical to a k def.
just something you should consider, as I suspect that trying to correct the def is gonna give you hell.
are you using compost?
castings?
both of those also have a good amount of k in them.

Crucial to remember that something overlooked like insufficient aeration/drainage, and/or too big of containers can cause the sol to retain too much water, and too moist/anaerobic mixes will look identical to a cation issue.
in decades of growing and helping others dial in their mixes, this is the MOST commonly misdiagnosed problem.

By far.
And it's not even close, and for whatever reason growers dig their heels in stubbornly and ignore that, insisting that it's obviously a k def and continue trying to correct the problem, I've seen that a BUNCH.
In fact it really has been a long ass time since I've seen an actual K def, almost always it's something else causing it.

chicken before the egg.

Organic soils with a humus-heavy mix retain a LOT of water. If you haven't made a mix like that before and water "normally" it's likely that it's anaerobic.
so for what that's worth, I urge you to double check all that.

aeration and drainage in particular.

tell me more about the soil mix man.
whats in it?
peat or coco?
compost or castings?

Get me a picture of it.




Personally I do not like mixing the nutrients together like that, cuz then it's impossible to tell how much of what you have.
settling, density discrepancies, etc those will mess up your ratios.


also remember that feather meal has a lot of arsenic in it, they use some sort of de-feathering technique or whatnot that does that.
hers a link on it
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969711014306

sucks too cuz it's a great source of slow release nitrogen.
BUT, good news is that doghair, human hair, or hoof/horn meal is the same stuff, minus the arsenic
I use beard shavings and dog hair in my compost pile for slow release nitrogen
Click to expand...
ya man
I re-reading your comments again lol

im not going to go crazy with the potash and will try omitting it in the future by adjusting the mix by eliminating the fish meal

I just felt the potash was the right answer to this particular deal cuz my soil test showed excessive N and low K
I wanted to recycle it but I don't want to add any more N than whats already in it so the potash fit the bill

but that doesn't mean I need to add potash again when recycle next time assuming I get the mix ratios in a better proportion (again be eliminating the fish meal I think I can do that)
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
They are the same thing actually. 0-0-50

Screen size is the factor in dissolving. I prefer lab grade or fine screened powdered product. I use it for my 10% and 6% liquid formula's.
I also use it in making a liquid mix of a variation on Mel Frank's old Potency increasing mix. It should be noted that Mel was doing 2x the Fe over the Mn sulfate. He was unknowingly (at the time) increasing CBD over THC production. It did increase both but, decrease his mix to 1:1 on those 2 parts or even maybe 10-20 % more Mn. I haven't done more then that due to the possible neg. reactions.

I clipped this from Rid's place as, it was easy to do and we've been debating the mix and concentrations there for a few weeks now.

"Mel Frank offers this micronutrient formula for high cannabinoid production: Fe-sulfate (5 mg/gal), Cu-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Mn-sulfate (2 mg/gal), Zn-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Boric acid (2 mg/gal), Molybdenic acid (0.1 mg/gal). Use 1 tspn/gal of nutrient solution, once monthly."

The Molybdenic is a limited purchase chemical. Restricted by US Gov.ATF/Homeland for it's use in making things that go boom. It's a bonding agent to K sulfate and other metal sulfates. I simply dropped it.
I have been doing a 1:1 Fe - Mn sulfate with it balanced. Same type of thing but with my 15 mg of Dark Brown Sugar as a bio stimulant for better uptake of the chem's.

Mixed this formula and reduced the Fe to 4 mg and increased the Mn to 4 mg, and am about to find out how that go's...


Notice that all these metals were in the sulfate form? S increases terp's ..... I have never hit the S tox wall either....Even with my use of Mg and K sulfate besides.





The problem is in the quality of the Lagbeinite. It varies greatly across the brands. It's also not exactly Potassium Sulfate. It is also higher in S then K2SO4.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention

you can use this as a source for your Mo

https://customhydronutrients.com/molybdenum-fertilizers-c-1_50_56.html?zenid=251c3c66b28fbbc6b7df4e3e2b6d6c76
 
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