High Pressure Aeroponics

ZxcStaz

Active Member
The prototype system has been constructed. A Rubbermaid tote was fitted with six spray nozzles. Four are positioned on the sides, high in the tote. These are 1GPH nozzles. Two nozzles are on the lid, they are 3GPH. The installation of the nozzles was easy, and the housing body was positioned on the exterior of the tote. (See attached pics below)

The system was powered by a Aquatech 5800. A check valve, stop valve, and strainer were installed inline. The reservoir is an old True-brew pail that was laying around. You know what, I hate bulkheads!?! Those bloody things are so difficult to keep from leaking. Putting that connection together took the majority of the construction time. This system would have gone together in half an hour, if not for that miscreant bulkhead. Initial testing revealed minor connection leaks. These were easily remedied by re-seating the tubing. The tote doesn’t leak, those totes are awesome. Actuation of the misters showed fine aeration and a uniform distribution. The positioning should cover the entire root mass. A fine cloud remained suspended in the air for a few seconds. The t op misters release a few drips upon pressure termination. Disassembly and transportation only require the disconnection of one push fitting, and then the unit is mobile.

I may integrate a few more stop valves to aid in the disconnection and transportation. Additionally, I will install a drain valve on the bottom of the tote to remove the excess nutrient solution. This, of course, involves another damn bulkhead fitting and most notably an increase in my blood pressure. I’ll move the system to the sunroom during the day, but at night when it is back in the tent, I‘ll use a different method to power the system.

Enter the accumulator tank. This beast is nice. The initial testing is very promising. The first step was to reduce the 1” National Pipe Thread (NPT) connection to a 3/8” push connect fitting. I used a NPT 1” male to 3/8” NPT female reducer, and coupled that with a 3/8” NPT male to 3/8” push fitting. Now I remember why one should always wrap the threading with Teflon tape before pressurizing the tank. I used the Aquatech to charge the tank with water. It took about 10 gallons to bring the tank up to 100 psi, about 2 gallons from 80psi to 100psi. These volumes may be manipulated if I change the factory 38 psi bladder pressure. Without going into too much detail, the pressure should be about 2 psi lower than target pump-on pressure, e.g., pressure switch set 60 o/ 100 o – make the bladder pressure 58 psi. Considering the system test data, I probably will not change the pressure.

Filling the tank took about a half hour. The pressure and volume were closely monitored from 80 – 100 psi. Obviously, the tank held because I’m not writing this from a hospital bed, but when I was filling it, those thoughts did cross my mind. Once pressurized, a solenoid valve, 24V power source, and timer were placed inline. The pump was disconnected and removed. Testing was performed to ascertain the dispensation duration, volume reduction, and pressure reduction of the stand-alone tank. These data and calculations follow, and at the time of writing this 80-60 psi data are still being collected.

The timer was set to open the solenoid for 2 seconds (s) on and 8s off. The pressure was monitored to count the total intervals actuated between those pressure readings. The system ran for 35 minutes before the pressure dropped to 80 psi. 210 actuations occurred. If the timer is set for 2s/5min, the system will work for 17.5 hours. The total volume dispensed was two gallons. Data is still pouring in, and it looks like 80-60 psi powers the nozzles well, and has more actuations for that range. So far, in this pressure range, the system has been running for 75 min. That’s an additional 37.5 hours of running time at the 2s/5m interval, and it’s still going! I think this tank will work well.

More to follow...now I have to clean up my mess…

- ZXC

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ZxcStaz

Active Member
Results after crunching data:

- Accumulator Tank Data analysis:

100-80 psi @ 2s intervals = 17.5 hrs. 2 gal. fluid consumed
80-60 psi @ 2s = 75 hrs. 4 gal. consumed

Max Total = 4 days/6.5 gal without re-pressurizing.

Extrapolation for system total volume @ 40 psi final pressure and 14.5 gal total pressurized volume equals approximately 8-9 days without refill.

- Conclusions:

In accordance to Tefen nozzle specification data sheets, and empirically, pressure reduction equivocates to a flow reduction, as shown by these time-pressure-volume data. Practical considerations include impacts to saturation rates, droplet size, and frequency of effluent removal. Visual comparison of droplet size and mist density did not reveal notable discrepancies. Qualitative hand saturation comparisons support the idea that the root zone will uniformly and adequately covered. Timing of an effluent removal pump can be estimated, once a specific pump is chosen. Flow rates and timing intervals will be calculated and tested for said device.
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
I am reflecting upon my knowledge base, and all of the postings that I have perused. trying to make sense of why it is beneficial to develop micro-hair roots. Considering natural conditions, that being periods of flood and periods of drought, I think that plants have evolved to accommodate these variables. Now, placing a plant into HPA is putting it into an unnatural environment, but one created to exploit a plants natural physiology, is a brilliant idea. Providing a stable, optimal condition, will accelerate growth, and with accommodations, see a plant through its life cycle to the maximum potential. This is using science and technology to elicit a maximal physiologic response. Alas, we have yet to perfect the technology capable of adjusting to every environmental variable, and it will be a while before we do. I fall back to the belief that evolution has influenced the genetic code to utilize times of prosper and adapt to times of despair. This is why I am questioning the adherence to one growing technique.

With the intrinsic fall-backs of a HPA system, and considering the difficulties maintaining a stable environment, a mixture of feast and famine might be beneficial. Blogs and postings regarding DWC have touted the increased growth when roots are exposed to air during rez changes. Ebb and flow utilize wet/dry cycles, and soil uses adjuncts to increase aeration, so is it a stretch to extrapolate these ideas to an Aeroponics system? What if we could increase absorption, oxygen availability, and maintain a stable environment throughout the life cycle without extravagant measures? If a plant is exposed to periods of excessive water, then reduced amounts without desiccation, will it develop cellular structures for the assimilation of water and nutrients that result in the net gain of biomass and a systemic reduction of pathogenic conditions?
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
With HPA think microbiology

The smaller the receptacle (root hairs) combined with ~ 50-80 micron mist, the more/most efficient the nutrient uptake. when that environment is within reasonable range (RH, nutrient and root chamber temps) creates the ideal environment for root hairs, which develop like cotton candy

I learned that I could get close with my modified F & D, while avoiding all thee complexity

Search internet for my blog: Hail Hydro 2.0 New Beginnings
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Nice PetFlora!
I love how you think! I'm just starting your blog and I find so many similarities to what I have done. You used coco to support seedlings, I use bent pipe cleaners. You incorporated LPA to forego air stones, I added timed sprayer units to each rez, sweet! I have just started reading and I'm going to be up all night getting great ideas from you! Thank you, it's made me smile, agree, and chuckle all the while. Oh, I found that an incubator increases germination % rate greatly.
In regards to the root hairs, yes. I was thinking of the cellular response to a semi-moist environment; increased surface area by means of micro-villi development. If I can attain even microscopic cellular protrusions the total surface area of the root cells will be increased and net absorption will increase.
Very cool, thanks PF,
- ZXC
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
here's a root pic from my starter tote, a small dwc with 4 large air stones to blast the air space with moist air carrying nutes
 

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ZxcStaz

Active Member
Nice prolific growth, It's has a lot of lateral root development, and it looks like some fish boning on the interior roots. I'll bet that the increased O2 has a lot to do with it. I tend to use 6" pots, and cut the lattice to accommodate for larger root growth, without losing the stones. Minimally I slice the plastic so that it wont strangulate the roots, but that is just me. I'll post today's pics of the seedlings in the next post, but my roots have yet to emerge from their pots.
In an aside, did you get your nutrient profile dialed in? I read that there were some variations that you worked to stabilize. I have found that if the EC/PPM, whichever you adhere to, are stable as the rez volume decreases, the profile is totally correct (with the exception of specific nutrients, etc, etc.). If PPM decreases, more nutes, vice versa - more H2O. More specifically about the nutes, if the pH is up you need more N or P, pH down more K.
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
The seedlings are larger now and I’m tired of hand watering. I needed to automate, so I constructed a drip system. It took a few prototypes, but I have achieved simplicity and mobility from spare parts. I used a timer, GPH pump, flex tubing, 5/8” PVC tubing, clothespins, and duct tape to make the system. A few buckets, drill bits, and an old refrigerator shelf, I am in business. I really didn’t want to spend money or time buying a retail system. I have attached a pic of the insanity to delight and puzzle readers, but all in all it works pretty good. Oh, in my first prototype I used a bulkhead…Mot*3r-F - I hate F … Did I previously mention my abhorrence to bulkheads???
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PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Nice prolific growth, It's has a lot of lateral root development, and it looks like some fish boning on the interior roots. I'll bet that the increased O2 has a lot to do with it. I tend to use 6" pots, and cut the lattice to accommodate for larger root growth, without losing the stones. Minimally I slice the plastic so that it wont strangulate the roots, but that is just me. I'll post today's pics of the seedlings in the next post, but my roots have yet to emerge from their pots.
In an aside, did you get your nutrient profile dialed in? I read that there were some variations that you worked to stabilize. I have found that if the EC/PPM, whichever you adhere to, are stable as the rez volume decreases, the profile is totally correct (with the exception of specific nutrients, etc, etc.). If PPM decreases, more nutes, vice versa - more H2O. More specifically about the nutes, if the pH is up you need more N or P, pH down more K.
Well, manufacturers feeding charts are hot. I now use 30-50% LESS. I had a bad EC meter which threw me for a loop, my own fault for not calibrating regularly. Also from mid-bloom on the plants dump a lot of crap through the main stem into the roots and rez. Yesterday I brought both rezes to ~ 700 (~ 1.2 EC) this morning both were over 800. You might think that's just from water use, but no. Levels the same

pH has been stable between 5.8- 6.0
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
I used GH nutes for a few months and quickly switched to my own because they would start out good for a few days, but then the plants would start to show deficiencies. If I didn't change them out weekly, or if I tried additional dosing to reconstitute, the plants became stressed. The pH swings were drastic too. I think that manufactures engineer them in a manner that promotes sales.
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Last year I took cuttings from my last harvest, 10 weeks into flower, with the thought that I might keep a few mothers around. This was back in July. I put them into a LPA cloner that I previously constructed and I let them go over the summer with a 300W full spec LED. The interval timer sprayed 2min/15min, fish tank air pump and an air stone. The six cuttings that rooted were trivial and expendable; I only added water to the res intermittently throughout the summer. No pH or TDS monitoring --in retrospect, I was a bad parent. Autumn arrives and I’m distracted with life, etc. Sadistically, I would intermittently peek into the tent and watch as the clones slowly succumb to neglect, all the while I swore that, I’d “give them some love”. November rolls around and I abandon them completely. I turn off the lights and deliver the coup de gras; no light, air bubbles, or water as I seal up the tent and remove them from my thoughts, then the cold sets in.

After Christmas, I’m bored and the paint isn’t peeling off of the walls fast enough. Playing around on the net, I bump into RIU again. A few threads in, and I get the gardening bug. Sweet! I will start some seeds, grow 144 lbs., get rich, and famous, - get paid to sell men’s fashions…but where to start the seeds? Oh, yeah I have a small tent too.

Fully expecting to wade through an Auschwitz horror, I opened the tent.

The carnage was great. All are dead, definitely. “Where is the humanity!”…wait? As I sift through the brown crunchy husks there is one that still has pliable leaves, and… there is some green left. No!, no way any of the cells have survived…but, Hey! It can’t be, I even yelled “Hadouken” before I turned off the lights…

There is one…

Ok, ok, “Bucker up little camper, I’ll save you” (as if that endears me to the subject of massive torture). I take the floppy, brown-rooted semi-corpse out of the grave. With little hope for survival, I figured I’d try to resuscitate her anyway. At the expense of some watts and nutes, I implore Demeter.

About two weeks ago, I cleaned out the tent, res, pumps, and stones. Using fresh city water, I sprayed the remaining root ball for 24 hours. After that, I did another res cleaning and water change, this time with 400 ppm balanced nutes. I let it run for a week without defoliating it at all. The dead and semi-dead leaves blocked a lot of the 24h light, but I figured this poor gal had enough trauma.

Today I checked the roots. They are growing splendidly. There is a ton of new growth throughout the plant. I decided to remove as many of the dead/mostly-dead leaves that I could without taking the ones that might contribute some energy or nutrients to this new immortal.

I’m not sure what the future holds for this lady. Maybe make her a “male” breeder, or keep her as a Mother, or both. I do not know what fate (or this sick and twisted little monkey of an author) will decide, but she sure has tenacity for life. There is a picture of the victim below.

(No animals were harmed in the making of this post, unless you count the calories consumed during it’s creation) - It was a damn good steak though…

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ZxcStaz

Active Member
Those look pretty neat. I'm not sure about some of the green light claims though. The carotenoids might be able to capture some of the energy and use it through ETS, but It's not as efficient as the chlorophylls. Besides, I have over 6K actual watts in full spectrum LEDs, if I get anymore lights I'm going to have to add another 220V circuit.
Have you used them, and if so, how do they compare to your previous lighting methods?
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
The no need for 'green' spectrum was a lie perpetrated because when leds first hit the scene, whit diodes were not well developed, and very expensive. So a pseudo-science was concocted by carpetbaggers

Back then I warned of serious eye damage, but of course, no one listened. Instead the carpetbaggers came out with special eye wear

Most of the blurple lights in commercial ops have been replaced with actual full spectrum white lights, just like mother nature
 

Anothermeduser

Well-Known Member
I used GH nutes for a few months and quickly switched to my own because they would start out good for a few days, but then the plants would start to show deficiencies. If I didn't change them out weekly, or if I tried additional dosing to reconstitute, the plants became stressed. The pH swings were drastic too. I think that manufactures engineer them in a manner that promotes sales.
Definetly not GH...I have ran gh for over 15yrs in aero systems, works excellent, my stuff has been that of legends so quality is sufficent. Once you learn to use gh its the shit, took a few yrs to figure it out though. Good luck, learning aero is a lot of fun.
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Hi guys, excellent points you both make, PetFlora and Anothermeduser. You both present persuasive and considerable observations based on experiential knowledge. As I digested these statements, I weighed them against the following points, and I have been inclined to present these additional factors.

Although the trend for well-funded commercial agricultural growers is to incorporate the latest white light emitting LED diodes, the cost of full spectrum LED units has plummeted, and a budget grower can acquire magnitudes greater watts per unit at the same expense compared to the high-end LEDs. This translates to a situation where a grower can provide more moles of photons, even though they are asymmetrical, which tips the balance in favor of the less biologically efficient lights.

In regards to utilization of GH fertilizers, the cost of running a year’s worth of nutrients to ascertain the optimal schedule is the same as fifty years of mixing reagents.

I do not begrudge the utilization of commercially produced nutrients. There is the fact that simply replicating a nutrient profile will cost about 1/100 that of the purchased price. If the grower relishes one particular brand, then creation of such just comes down to reverse engineering it and mixing the salts. This is often an esoteric process, but the profiles are available. Convenience might also be a deciding factor, but I enjoy the flexibility afforded, in order to accommodate specific deficits.

I look forward to your thoughts and counter points, and I’ll conclude with an update on the seedlings posted below.

- ZXC
 

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ZxcStaz

Active Member
I would say definetly if one has the knowledge to mix your own, im just a simple farmer.
Anothermeduser,
I hold farmers in the highest regard; we have elevated our species from simple carnivores to the sentient beings we are now. All of your experience will help push us forward, and I'm grateful that you are willing to share, so that we might pass our knowledge along to the future :) !
I am humbled by your statement, and thankful for your contribution. (No B.S.)
...also, I hope your 4:20 is 1000%! Kick arse!
Thanks again,
- ZXC
 

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Crazy week. I mixed up some more Jacks. I went with a N-P-K-Ca-Mg ratio of 2.5-1-2.8-1.3-.6 , which I think is pretty rounded. The K-Ca-Mg ratio is 4.4 – 2 – 1, not too shabby either. I diluted the mix to 700 ppm, or EC 1 and checked it with the Blue Labs. Here is the profile:

JacksVegNutes.jpg

I had to make another tub, the plants got pretty crowded. I diluted the nutes and divided them between the two totes, but I added a bit more MPK and MgSO4. The plants look very green and I don’t want to lock out the Mg. This OG Kush strain usually needs a lot of Mg. To be safe, I foliar fed them some micros/P/Ca/Mg. I think they are moving right along. I’ll keep a close eye on the pH and ppm’s throughout the week to see how they respond to the new conditions.
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PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Consider how uber efficient HPA is.

I would cut the EC to ~ 0.5 EC for mature plants, and ~ 0,25 for young clones

Using yucca, enzymes, and aminos will further improve nutrient efficiency. I now add NPK Raw dry; ~ 1//4tsp/gallon

Are you planning on D2W?
 
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