24 hour light vs. 18/6.
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SPLFreak808
Well-Known Member
24/0 cfl's if using 2700k
18/6 hid
24/0 with HID is kind of overkill! It doesnt look much different over 18/6 with hid's and its just way to much watering in veg imo. Everyone's got a working method i guess
18/6 hid
24/0 with HID is kind of overkill! It doesnt look much different over 18/6 with hid's and its just way to much watering in veg imo. Everyone's got a working method i guess
Bangaman
Active Member
Without facts about my grow, it is presumptuous to claim you have more crop per year than I do. I've Been growing long enough for a kid to be born and out of college,and 6 years of Biology studies (Masters), to know I don't need to do all that seeding, sexing and jumping through hoops, old school stuff when my need for speedy crops are met with feminized seeds and a great seed source for all my practical purposes. In fact, my harvest cycle is down packed to a timely crop, I can't handle any faster.
One thing I can guarantee you is that when it comes to plant biology, with no science in your closet, you are navigating an ocean without a compass and though you might "hit land" based on hearsay science and blind luck, your efforts will always be infantile, like a child in a "sandbox"
If fucking around, and puttering with the idea that you are a master Gardner / cannabis Geneticist based on lay science and without cracking a botany / genetics book or reading peer review research on Cannabis Botany and cellular Biology gets you excited, then that's your thing. But forget the notion of your expertise.
Plant science, is almost exhaustive in the 21st century, and BIG BRAINS doing heavy cannabis research as we speak. It would be self defeating to thump your chest without a clue of the science and claim you are good at it or that you even understand it.
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Bangaman
Active Member
Can you explain how " root colonization" by fungi affects phototropism or any other plant physiological triggers?well, consider root colonization landmark as a big igniter in the triggering-response scene bro. Nice input, well known in mycology as a igniter or secondary bloom trigger
anyways those four five weeks for sexing fits perfectly with 18/6
Will Thayer
Well-Known Member
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I thank all of you who have contributed to it. Right or wrong, it is good to hear people's opinions.
24 hour veg has always worked for my seeds and clones. Recent improvements to my garden has been the introduction of COB leds. I can now deliver more photons per watts used compared to my old veg light.
@Bangaman what is your opinon on the use of infrared "flower initiators" just after lights out? Can you explain the science please.
Cheers,
Will
24 hour veg has always worked for my seeds and clones. Recent improvements to my garden has been the introduction of COB leds. I can now deliver more photons per watts used compared to my old veg light.
@Bangaman what is your opinon on the use of infrared "flower initiators" just after lights out? Can you explain the science please.
Cheers,
Will
Bangaman
Active Member
Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment (enzyme) that plants use to detect light. They are part of the plant's environmental time cues, called zeitgebers (German for time givers). Some Phytochromes are sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use them to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night (photoperiodism) and to set circadian rhythms, grow toward light etc. They also regulates other responses including the germination of seeds etc. They are found in leaves of most plants.
When it comes to environmental time cues, quantity of stimuli does not always dictate the magnitude / size of response. Now, Phytochromes like other "time keepers" are "hard-wired" via DNA to the earth's 24 hour rotation and they have the ability to reset the 'clock' as a function of the time of day. Plants in a darken room will grow tward a single source of light no matter how small the light and adjust their rythm to this small light.
A single zeitgebers, say a Phytochrome does not act alone to cause flowering, you need a combination of zeitgebers to be triggered and although one of the most important environmental factors affecting flowering time is the daily duration of light, the photoperiod, there are a plethora of zeitgebers that play important roles leading to flowering such as light (intensity) perception, hormone metabolism, signal transduction, and floral meristem specification, all play roles in the regulation of flowering time and are sometimes also referred to as flowering-time zeitgebers.
so the answer to your question, odds are that if you are using the right lights for veg and flower you are covered (HPS bulbs emit light strong at the red/orange end of the spectrum, which promotes flowering. However, HPS lighting may also produce leggy growth unless used together with daylight or a source of metal halide system to inhibit the triggers for meristem elongation.
Can influencing a single timekeeper make or break your yield record? Can gismos emitting the right red light in the right part of the spectrum increase flowering significantly to warrant the cost and trouble? Try it. So far there the jury is out. There has been significant advances in this area Since Phytochromes were discovered in the 20s by by Garner and Allard, but we have yet to see any major Agricultural applications. The concept is marketable, but does it work? Keep us posted if you do it
When it comes to environmental time cues, quantity of stimuli does not always dictate the magnitude / size of response. Now, Phytochromes like other "time keepers" are "hard-wired" via DNA to the earth's 24 hour rotation and they have the ability to reset the 'clock' as a function of the time of day. Plants in a darken room will grow tward a single source of light no matter how small the light and adjust their rythm to this small light.
A single zeitgebers, say a Phytochrome does not act alone to cause flowering, you need a combination of zeitgebers to be triggered and although one of the most important environmental factors affecting flowering time is the daily duration of light, the photoperiod, there are a plethora of zeitgebers that play important roles leading to flowering such as light (intensity) perception, hormone metabolism, signal transduction, and floral meristem specification, all play roles in the regulation of flowering time and are sometimes also referred to as flowering-time zeitgebers.
so the answer to your question, odds are that if you are using the right lights for veg and flower you are covered (HPS bulbs emit light strong at the red/orange end of the spectrum, which promotes flowering. However, HPS lighting may also produce leggy growth unless used together with daylight or a source of metal halide system to inhibit the triggers for meristem elongation.
Can influencing a single timekeeper make or break your yield record? Can gismos emitting the right red light in the right part of the spectrum increase flowering significantly to warrant the cost and trouble? Try it. So far there the jury is out. There has been significant advances in this area Since Phytochromes were discovered in the 20s by by Garner and Allard, but we have yet to see any major Agricultural applications. The concept is marketable, but does it work? Keep us posted if you do it
Bangaman
Active Member
Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment (enzyme) that plants use to detect light. They are part of the plant's environmental time cues, called zeitgebers (German for time givers). Some Phytochromes are sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use them to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night (photoperiodism) and to set circadian rhythms, grow toward light etc. They also regulates other responses including the germination of seeds etc. They are found in leaves of most plants.
When it comes to environmental time cues, quantity of stimuli does not always dictate the magnitude / size of response. Now, Phytochromes like other "time keepers" are "hard-wired" via DNA to the earth's 24 hour rotation and they have the ability to reset the 'clock' as a function of the time of day. Plants in a darken room will grow tward a single source of light no matter how small the light and adjust their rythm to this small light.
A single zeitgebers, say a Phytochrome does not act alone to cause flowering, you need a combination of zeitgebers to be triggered and although one of the most important environmental factors affecting flowering time is the daily duration of light, the photoperiod, there are a plethora of zeitgebers that play important roles leading to flowering such as light (intensity) perception, hormone metabolism, signal transduction, and floral meristem specification, all play roles in the regulation of flowering time and are sometimes also referred to as flowering-time zeitgebers.
so the answer to your question, odds are that if you are using the right lights for veg and flower you are covered (HPS bulbs emit light strong at the red/orange end of the spectrum, which promotes flowering. However, HPS lighting may also produce leggy growth unless used together with daylight or a source of metal halide system to inhibit the triggers for meristem elongation.
Can influencing a single timekeeper make or break your yield record? Can gismos emitting the right red light in the right part of the spectrum increase flowering significantly to warrant the cost and trouble? Try it. So far there the jury is out. There has been significant advances in this area Since Phytochromes were discovered in the 20s by by Garner and Allard, but we have yet to see any major Agricultural applications. The concept is marketable, but does it work? Keep us posted if you do it
It doesnt affect plants phototropism. That bad analogy just takes in account the full colonization & consolidation of a substrate as the first requisite prior to start a bloom phase. Also if a part of this substrate is already colonized by another species (competition relationship) or being inhospitable per se the full colonization thing its sensed/signalled as accompliseed blabla zz zzzz this happens in lower & higher fungi btw and it could help you fightin molds
Can you explain this again pls? cos i'm about to draw that in a t-shirt^
Bangaman
Active Member
"
For science buffs, remember the two stages of photosynthesis in C3 plants and the three stages of photosynthesis in C4 plants. Apparently this is not common knowledge that Photosynthesis takes place in two or 3 stages: light-dependent reactions and the Calvin cycle (light-independent reactions). Light-dependent reactions, which take place in the thylakoid membrane, use light energy to make ATP and NADPH. The Calving cycle or light-independent reactions still take place 24/7 365 as long as light is present to replenish the Enzymes for the reactions in the light-independent reactions. The first phase needs light as will go on as long as there is light because. Like I said earlier, the enzymes of the Calvin Cycle need light and therefore by starving the plants by six hours, the plant has to rebuild this enzyme reservoir when the lights come back on. Whereas under uninterrupted light, the Enzyme reservoir for the Calvin Cycle is never depleted.
The difference in C4 plants like corn and why they can take unlimited amounts of light intensities (Watt per square foot) is that they have evolved a second light dependent process that protects the Calvin cycle from the effects of photorespiration which happens if you feed the plants too much light intensity it shuts the stomata and starts respiration instead of the Calvin Cycle. C4 plants do this and also continue to the Calvin Cycle so they cannot suffer photorespiration at high light intensities.
Remember light intensity refers to the Watt per square foot and not the length of exposure to wattage"
That rebuild of the enzyme reservoir vs never depleted doesn't has to be a scary thing m8. If you give plants a couple dark night cycles they will be adjusted from the root tip to the thylakoid. Just double the light intensity and you will get a better plant system/structure in dark cycled plants
Bangaman
Active Member
Any actual science behind this or is this more bro science? Because the actual science says no dark needed for a "a better plant system/structure."
Photosynthetically Active Radiation, often abbreviated PAR, designates the spectral range (wave band) of solar radiation from 400 to 700 nanometers that photosynthetic organisms are able to use in the process of photosynthesis.The photosynthetic efficiency is the fraction of light energy converted into chemical energy during photosynthesis in plants.
So to double your "light power it depends on the type of light you use. Optimal light intensity for C3 plants is about 50-60 watts per square foot depending on the lights used, for 1000 watt HPS lamps give off 110000 (in the 400–700 nm range) anything over will cause photorespiration.
In fact it has been proven that Photosynthesis increases linearly with light intensity but only at low intensities. At higher intensities things fall apart. Above about 10,000 lux or ~100 watts/square meter (10.76 sq feet) the rate no longer increases. Therefore, most plants can only utilize ~10% of full mid-day sunlight intensity. when you say "Just double the light intensity" are we still talking the same thing?
Remember that photosynthesis, 6H2O + 6CO2 + Light energy → C6H12O6 + 6O2. There is a plethora of catalysts (enzymes) that are not mentioned in the equation above but are manufactured by the use of sugar
Lets say you have pure or decent source of light radiation in the 400 to 700 nanometers range, in adding this light energy you must balance by adding more co2 otherwise it is bust. if you give too much of the right radiation photorespiration kills the plant and it is bust.
Now when you say "Just double the light intensity" what do you mean?
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I agree. Everyone knows photosynthesis net its always optimized at a given par(low or high)+environment. At this point no one is gonna earn a medal^. Plant obviously will try to generate new tissue [with proper new % stomata, cell guards,etc] or reallocate starches whenever you dim up the light.
What i truly don't know is why they adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles. My first thoughts point to the rootzone but it looks you are better prepared to answer this.
Will Thayer
Well-Known Member
@Bangaman, thank you for your answer.
Quite a few are experimenting with far red.
Have a read of this thread and tell me what you think.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-far-red-thread.867665/
Cheers,
Will
Quite a few are experimenting with far red.
Have a read of this thread and tell me what you think.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-far-red-thread.867665/
Cheers,
Will
since1991
Well-Known Member
Tulip and veggie growers in Holland are experimenting witj far red led lighing as a supplement to sunlight. The go to is double ended P.l. Hortiluz Schraeder fixtures but they are on the cutting edge over there....always have been really. And there is a big tomato greenhouee op in socal amd arizona i believe. Forget the name...but they are running at near 100% efficiency with virtually 0 waste. Solar and wind with all supplemet lamps. And some big machine that recycles waste gas from gennys and dehuey water. Its amazing. Almost net zero waste loss..Real.cutting edge. Its on youtube. Scientists and engineers told them it was impossible. Only one of its kind in America. Besides labor everything is almost all profit.
Bangaman
Active Member
The why in "why they adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles." is there is no experimental proof that plants do better with a dark cycle. The is however overwhelming evidence pointing to the contrary.
An educated guess of what leads to a perception of plants seeming to " adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles" would point to limiting factors of the photosynthetic chemical reaction.
In my post above I stated: "Remember that photosynthesis, 6H2O + 6CO2 + Light energy → C6H12O6 + 6O2. There is a plethora of catalysts (enzymes) that are not mentioned in the equation above but are manufactured by the use of sugar"
from the above we identify the following limiting factors
1) 6H2O Water:
2) CO2
3) Light energy
4) enzymes (manufactured from nutrients)
Increasing one component of the photosynthesis reaction (equation) will cause a depletion in the others, making them limiting factors. So experiment with nute doses watering and co2 levels to compensate for the longer light period.
Other limiting factors to take seriously are temperature, PH and humidity.
Anytime you supplement a part of the equation think of the limiting factors.
More light energy at 24/0 at 50-60 Watts/sq Meter will need more of everything than at !8/6. To be exact 25% more.
Supplementing is pointless if you don't think in terms of limiting factors of a chemical reaction.
According to an interesting peer review study published in the
Physiology Molecular Biology of Plants. 2008 Oct; 14(4): 299–306.
Published online 2009 Feb 26. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550641/
The study on the Effect of different light intensities, temperatures and CO2 concentrations on gas and water vapor exchange characteristics of Cannabis concluded that under controlled humidity (55 ± 5 %)
1 - The rate of photosynthesis and water use efficiency increased with light intensities at lower temperatures (20-25 °C). 68-77F
2- The maximum rate of photosynthesis (was observed at 30 °C or 86F and under 1500 μmol CO2 "and decreased at higher light levels."
I hope this answers the question.
Happy gardening
Bangaman
Active Member
@since1991
Starting with the solar spectrum falling on a leaf,
- 47% lost due to photons outside the 400–700 nm active range.
- 30% of the in-band photons are lost due to incomplete absorption or photons hitting components other than chloroplasts
- 24% of the absorbed photon energy is lost due to degrading short wavelength photons to the 700 nm energy level
- 68% of the utilized energy is lost in conversion into d-glucose
- 35–45% of the glucose is consumed by the leaf in the processes of dark and photo respiration
Typical plants (C3 plants) have a net efficiency between 0.1-2%. Sugar cane a c4 plant is as close perfect yielding peak storage efficiencies of ~8%.
if these people in Europe have found a way to bring C3 plant net efficiency from
0.1- 2% to 100% and beating sugar can a C4 plant and most efficient studied, I wonder why they have not won a Nobel Prize.
Reference:
David Oakley Hall; K. K. Rao; Institute of Biology (1999). Photosynthesis. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-64497-6. Retrieved 3 November 2011.
old shol4evr
Well-Known Member
wow this turned into a damn science class,thread started in 2010 and hear 6 yrs later,class is still in,i dont even remember were i started,someone asked if 24 hr of light was a benift for them i answered back i did,again from paper towel to half cup of ocean forset soil,when plant gets 3rd set of nodes,the solo cup goes from 24 hr of light to 12 hrs of light,when the solo cup and plant shows sex,it is then transplanted into 3 gallon pots when the plant gets 14 in tall they go back to flower room and finished out. benifit for me is building stem mass by roots hitting bottom quicker and start filling out,this alone reducing veg time simply because within 3 weeks from paper towel they are sexed and transplanted to final pot,no science no dna test no nothing but fucking with lights to fool them into thinking the season changing on them,thats all,funny you all mention all this book crap and not a single thing mentioned about moon stages,how do you explain that,but can explain a small light leak in your room giving you hermies and shit.cant remember who it was that was growing before i was born and cum on my mama and daddys sheets,but i tell you friend i was there,and if you remember right and as old a experenced as you claim to be ,in the late 60's and early 70's i knew about 4 folks that grew there bud under lights in there homes and it was done with hps street lights they aquired,when us and mexico started spraying paraqute and sent the whole community into lock down,you should remmeber that,down south here everyone turned to acid,so with that i will leave you all thread because a open mind of develoment isnt wanted or needed here,to many old folk stuck in there ways,but thanks for the science class been a while for me,YOU KNOW ME AND MY METHODS IS JUST SHOOTING FROM THE HIP anyway and my harvest and strains ive built and done the work on was just luck,hell think i need to play the lottery,TO ALL OF YOU BLAZE TILL YOUR DAZED AND TAKE ANOTHER HIT FOR ME
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Bangaman
Active Member
Moon phases, huh? And Doctors performed and justified Lobotomy and gave patients Arsenic for decades. Heck, we used Led in paint, Asbestos in in everything all these things for eons until science came along. Those doctors and engineers too swore they were correct. But I feel ya, staying in bliss with Joe Grow's advice and Bro Science is more fun for some peeps. Its all good
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
Whats bro science?