A new GOP bill would make it virtually impossible to sue the police

DiogenesTheWiser

DiogenesTheWiser

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
What would you consider the 'race' divisions in America? I think classism is a big dividing line, just as much as ethnicity. Has religion faded as a dividing line?
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In America, because of colonization from the 1500s through the 1700s, the whole concept of racial differences was formulated, albeit gradually over decades. The first differences that motivated the colonizers were religious differences. Spanish and Portuguese colonizers needed laborers, and they first tried to enslave Indians, who died quickly thanks to an inability to ward off European diseases (or they were worked to death in silver mines). Right away, Spanish and Portuguese documented these deaths, and claimed two things. First, they stated that Indians died because they did not know Jesus and weren't Catholic. Second, they believed their deaths were caused by their "red" skin. In other words, racial phenotype difference contributed to their untimely deaths. The same thing played out when both of these nations took over the Madeiras and Canary islands.

Both European nations began exporting Africans to the New World to toil in encomiendas and mines. Africans possessed immunities to smallpox and other European diseases and that's why they were preferred. Again, religious differences at first motivated the Spanish and Portuguese. Even Bartolome de las Casas argued that there was no Catholic prohibition against enslaving Muslims. Most West Africans that were initially enslaved were either Muslim or maintained a traditional African folk religion. Either way, it was a "heathen" faith and justified Catholic nations' enslavement policies.

After scores of Africans were forcibly taken to the Caribbean and central and South America, more and more intermarried with Iberian-born Spaniards or Portuguese. The Spaniards created a name for their offspring -- Hispanic -- as a way to legitimize the births of children to parents who were 1.) European Catholic, and 2) Muslim African.

So yes, religion has faded in America as a huge and signficant marker of difference.

Class is very important to American society and culture, and is a huge dividing line as is race. Like race, class is socially and historically constructed. The best example of race and class as ideologies that mixed during the colonial period is Bacon's Rebellion in Virginia. It involved slaves, Indians, and poor white English indentured servants against the landholders called Planters. Planters were supposed to free their indentures after 5 or 7 years of faithful service and grant them a plot of land. When indentures became land holders (few did, most were worked to death), that put them on par with their former masters. And so the upper classes, or Planter class, gradually began reneging on this agreement with indentures. So the indentures, slaves, and Indians got together, took over Virginia colony, and then Parliament had to send over a big bruiser to get control of the situation. At that point the upper classes decided to use racial similarities to divide poor indentures from slaves or Indians, claiming that the poor might not have much, but they were not "subhuman" like Africans or Indians.

See Nancy Isenberg's book, White Trash: A 400-year History of Class in America and Ramon Guitierrez's When Jesus Came, the Corn Mothers Went Away.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
DiogenesTheWiser said:
In America, because of colonization from the 1500s through the 1700s, the whole concept of racial differences was formulated, albeit gradually over decades. The first differences that motivated the colonizers were religious differences. Spanish and Portuguese colonizers needed laborers, and they first tried to enslave Indians, who died quickly thanks to an inability to ward off European diseases (or they were worked to death in silver mines). Right away, Spanish and Portuguese documented these deaths, and claimed two things. First, they stated that Indians died because they did not know Jesus and weren't Catholic. Second, they believed their deaths were caused by their "red" skin. In other words, racial phenotype difference contributed to their untimely deaths. The same thing played out when both of these nations took over the Madeiras and Canary islands.

Both European nations began exporting Africans to the New World to toil in encomiendas and mines. Africans possessed immunities to smallpox and other European diseases and that's why they were preferred. Again, religious differences at first motivated the Spanish and Portuguese. Even Bartolome de las Casas argued that there was no Catholic prohibition against enslaving Muslims. Most West Africans that were initially enslaved were either Muslim or maintained a traditional African folk religion. Either way, it was a "heathen" faith and justified Catholic nations' enslavement policies.

After scores of Africans were forcibly taken to the Caribbean and central and South America, more and more intermarried with Iberian-born Spaniards or Portuguese. The Spaniards created a name for their offspring -- Hispanic -- as a way to legitimize the births of children to parents who were 1.) European Catholic, and 2) Muslim African.

So yes, religion has faded in America as a huge and signficant marker of difference.

Class is very important to American society and culture, and is a huge dividing line as is race. Like race, class is socially and historically constructed. The best example of race and class as ideologies that mixed during the colonial period is Bacon's Rebellion in Virginia. It involved slaves, Indians, and poor white English indentured servants against the landholders called Planters. Planters were supposed to free their indentures after 5 or 7 years of faithful service and grant them a plot of land. When indentures became land holders (few did, most were worked to death), that put them on par with their former masters. And so the upper classes, or Planter class, gradually began reneging on this agreement with indentures. So the indentures, slaves, and Indians got together, took over Virginia colony, and then Parliament had to send over a big bruiser to get control of the situation. At that point the upper classes decided to use racial similarities to divide poor indentures from slaves or Indians, claiming that the poor might not have much, but they were not "subhuman" like Africans or Indians.

See Nancy Isenberg's book, White Trash: A 400-year History of Class in America and Ramon Guitierrez's When Jesus Came, the Corn Mothers Went Away.
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And now class is being used as a dividing line; I'm white and educated but I was always seen as second class among the rich kids.

Trustafarians are the New Planters.

Paris Hilton is nothing more than just rich. Not talented. Not intelligent. Not generous. Yet she's still upper crust in the status race.
 
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DiogenesTheWiser

DiogenesTheWiser

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
And now class is being used as a dividing line; I'm white and educated but I was always seem as second class among the rich kids.

Trustafarians are the New Planters.
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Yeah, my parents were school teachers at private schools, so my brother and I attended for free. Around all those rich kids, we were never really accepted. Then I went to Georgetown for undergrad on a scholarship and it was the same deal. All the trust fund kids and their BMWs, while I took the metro everyday and worked on campus in food service. Then I kicked their asses during class discussions because the rich kids refused to study but they got the 100k/year jobs right out of college thanks to sorority and fraternity connections.

I follow some of these assholes on FB and their lives are a shambles. Multiple divorces, bankruptcies and their kids have problems.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
DiogenesTheWiser said:
Yeah, my parents were school teachers at private schools, so my brother and I attended for free. Around all those rich kids, we were never really accepted. Then I went to Georgetown for undergrad on a scholarship and it was the same deal. All the trust fund kids and their BMWs, while I took the metro everyday and worked on campus in food service. Then I kicked their asses during class discussions because the rich kids refused to study but they got the 100k/year jobs right out of college thanks to sorority and fraternity connections.

I follow some of these assholes on FB and their lives are a shambles. Multiple divorces, bankruptcies and their kids have problems.
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I'd call it justice except for all the other lives that get ruined along the way.
 
tampee

tampee

Well-Known Member
DiogenesTheWiser said:
Europeans hated the Jews, and considered their religious difference to be a racial difference. Anti-semitism wasn't just a German thing. For example, as the Nazis took over eastern Europe and France, anti-semitic fascists in those nations came out of the woodwork to round up Jews, Gypsies, handicapped people, homosexuals, and a few Catholics. It was all about making greater Europe, under Nazi control, racially homogenous.

Race is socially constructed. There's only "races" because societies invent them. This is what the Europeans did vis-a-vis the Jews.
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Ethnic Jews are not European they are Palestinians the European ones just worship the same God. It's no different than Catholics vs Protestant and Catholics vs Jews and Muslims vs Catholics and Jews.

It had nothing to do with heritage and all to do with religion and Catholics were fine with Hitler's treatment of the Jews I can find you a picture of Hitler and the Pope shaking hands. The Vatican is in Italy can you guess where Mussolini was from??

Of course Hitler had his Aryan bullshit but they did not kill brown hair brown eyed white people. But Hitler was high on methamphetamine all the time. His speech about England was actually pretty accurate though they fucked the Germans they gave them no choice but war why you think they all followed Hitler?
 
tangerinegreen555

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
tampee said:
Ethnic Jews are not European they are Palestinians the European ones just worship the same God. It's no different than Catholics vs Protestant and Catholics vs Jews and Muslims vs Catholics and Jews.

It had nothing to do with heritage and all to do with religion and Catholics were fine with Hitler's treatment of the Jews I can find you a picture of Hitler and the Pope shaking hands. The Vatican is in Italy can you guess where Mussolini was from??

Of course Hitler had his Aryan bullshit but they did not kill brown hair brown eyed white people. But Hitler was high on methamphetamine all the time. His speech about England was actually pretty accurate though they fucked the Germans they gave them no choice but war why you think they all followed Hitler?
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Address your kiddie porn problem instead of revising history.
 
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