About a pound? Uncharted HPA Territory?

And why would you see these issues in aero but not any other system? That's the part that doesn't make sense. FWIW though I grabbed my infrared heat gun and checked - root temps are 72-73, I thought they'd be higher. I switched to 3 on 6 off on the sprays and now my reservoir is 67-68.
I'm going to go ahead and assume that the plants are providing sugars to the bacteria and fungi I innoculated with and they're colonizing the roots. On a few plants I've got some serious brownage going on but it doesn't stink and it's not slimey and the plants look healthy.
Another possibility is that I foliar sprayed to drip down with a mixture of kelp, photosynthesis plus, and root and foliar spray (the last two from microbe life) and a few other ingredients but the mentioned are all brown - perhaps some of those had leaked down the net pots and their bacteria are colonizing the roots too.

Aero doesnt have any media or gallons of water in the rootzone acting as a thermal buffer. Even if the roots are constantly wet, the rootzone temperature will have an affect on the growth rates, it works the same for too cold as well as too hot. I think you`re making a rod for you own back with all that extra stuff in the res, a basic nute is much easier to troubleshoot.

I didn't journal it but I tried running just basic nutes last run and it went great for a bit then I ended up with some serious root rot. I treated with chlorine and then (too much) physan 20 and probably killed the plants before I got the hydroguard. If you're just running basic nutes you're going to get SOME kind of bacteria in there some way and you're just hoping it's the good kind.

The only way to run "sterile" as far as I'm concerned right now is with chlorine dioxide either on site generated or in tablet form - but I haven't tried either. The calcium hypochlorite (or sodium hypochlorite) when kept at sufficient levels to kill pathogens also kills the plants if you're using a doser due to combining with ammonium. Ozone, peroxide, UV, etc. all hurt your nutes.

I'm essentially just running heisenberg tea without the ancient forest and without brewing and adding in enzymes to eat any dead plant matter before any rot can set in. If some bacteria is going to get in there I'd like to be able to be in control of it in a way that I can ensure the dominant bacteria and fungi aren't harmful to the plant.

As far as a thermal buffer - I call horse shit. If you have a room full of hempy buckets and the room is 85 then the buckets at best might be 83 due to evaporative cooling of the nutrient solution from the bucket. They'll be hotter if it's a black bucket and they absorb the light. Root growth is fastest at 85 anyways - but so is bacterial growth.

If you want a hostile environment for hpa, try running it outdoors in full sun. I dont use any exotic potions to thwart the hordes of bacteria that must surely be lurking 24/7 yet the roots stay healthy and white. I try to keep the chamber temps as close as possible to 70F, which isnt easy on hot days. Running to waste helps a lot as it isolates the nutes from the chamber and makes it easier to keep the nutes cool/fresh until they`re needed. If i couldnt get my chambers below 85F i`d turn them off and switch to coco
HPA roots dont have any protection which makes them more sensitive to temperature than hydro or soil roots. If you expose white hpa roots to the air even for a short time you`ll see browning and/or general discolouration. It may not show up until hours later but when it does you`ll notice it continues to get worse before it gets better. If they are subjected to the same temp issue day after day, they wont recover.
Just handling hpa roots will give you a similar result, resist the urge to cop a feel of the roots

Have a look around for studies on rootzone temperature versus growth rate, there`s none specifically for MJ or HPA, but the majority of whats around do have similar trends in results, reduced growth rates with higher rootzone temps.

About a pound for sure.

It's my understanding that root zone temps and canopy temps both come into play. You can take one farther in one direction as long as it's compensated for by the other. I have done some research on rooting temps and of the plants I looked at 30 C (85F) or in some cases 27-28C was optimal for root growth - it's the same reason people use heating mats. I'm sure there are some exceptions. Nonetheless - 70-85F seemed to be the better ranges for roots.

What kind of water are you using? City or well? If you're using city then it likely doesn't have any bacteria in it and depending on how long your reservoir sits then it may continue to disinfect the roots (i.e. if you're using inline dosing from line pressure). Even more - if it has chloramine and you're only storing small amounts at a time that can last up to two weeks.

The only roots I copped a feel on are the mulatta ones LOL, just to make sure they weren't slimey so they didn't give my other sluts any STDS as I got a horde of frisky lesbians.

The bacteria I'm using have a large following and many testimonials from DWC users which seems to be the system most prone to infectious bacterium. I figured if it works for them then it should work in aero.

Looks like endomycorrhiza may be the reason for the brown. I did a root tip squash and put it under the scope (one of the browning roots.) It appears they're actually in the cells of the roots.





You can see they've branched around.


I even took a vid and you can see the little buggers swimming around. They weren't present when I first made the slide as it was a small piece of root that broke off when I was copping a feel earlier and dried out. When I put it under the scope and added RO water they weren't there..and then they were all over the fricken place but I can't upload wmv.


compare to:
http://www.mycorrhiza.be/pictures/ginco_index.jpg
http://www.bigblogofgardening.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mycorrhiza-fungi-image-1.jpg

@captainmorgan
@MegaBud
@NurseNancy420
@Hammerhead571


I've seen you all in other threads about the glue and you seem to be quite knowledgeable on this strain. This will be my first run flowering with them and I was wondering at 1 plant per sqft should I flip in 2 days time with just one week veg under 56 w/sqft of LED?






I was thinking another week veg, but they seem to grow a lot in flower and I don't want them to get too big. I can raise the lights probably another 14".

Also, what EC do you usually run at this age? They're at 0.8EC right now but they look hungry (In my experience they seem happiest with daaaaark green leaves - almost nitrogen toxicity) so I bumped to 1.0EC. The moms I had were initially in dirt and were given to me bigger. I had full sized moms up to ~2.5EC without burn.

Edit to Add: It's gorilla glue #4 ..probably should have mentioned that in the post I tagged you in.

1.0 ec
Less is more with her.
She will try to over run your lights so sooner to flip when in doubt.
Double scrog is best .
Add mag

Thanks Nancy!

I saw the double screen captainmorgan had set up on the ones he was flowering. I'm wondering what is the use of the second screen? I know that the glue is known to be weak and need support but I was trying to just fill out an even canopy at 12" for optimal light distribution. I have some trellising I was going to put up across the top frame I have there. Is the second screen necessary to support all the weight?

So you suggest flipping at a week? They're about 6-7 inches tall now and just really starting to grow and the only journal I saw was here: http://rollitup.org/t/hydroponic-gorilla-glue-4-grow-with-the-flow-ebb.865030/page-4#post-11526714 where he went in at 15" and got over run.

The stretch is the problem. Specifically lateral stretch.
Stretches beyond what the stems can support. The buds WILL flop and u will hav a sticky mass..

Well Lateral stretch is what I'd like, some are big enough they will be able to reach the nets location soon, but some I'm not sure if they're tall enough yet to reach even with the stretch unless they more than double in size. I'll post another picture tomorrow night, but maybe I should let them go just half a week more before flipping? I've just never really seen the stretch on this one but have heard a lot about it.

As promised, updated pictures. This is 7 days of veg. I think another half week to week of veg before flipping- and even then maybe I should use some hooks horizontally in the net support to hang a trellis wherever the tops are then and then put a trellis at the top too? Input?

With LEDs you only get ~12" of penetration on the lights at 3 watts - this way I wont need to worry about lower foliage dieing off.








Also, lucky I had an extra water heat on standby for CO2. I had snapped the gas line when I was tightening it down but saved it for parts. My water heater had the ignition module go bad on me and wouldn't spark but I was able to rip the other heaters module out and connect it for a temporary fix. I also do have an intake/exhaust system setup so that I can pull in outside air from 4" fan and exhaust into outside room but I don't know how much good that will do me for CO2.

edit: typos

Hi all,

Here's some recent pics. I'm thinking I'm going to wait until Saturday to flip. One net on the bottom of the top rail maybe an inch down and another on top of the rail. Thoughts?








I also may have to get a few clones to replace a couple stragglers with. I was getting some nute burn at 1.0EC. I had brought the RO water to .24 with calnit and epsom salts then I've been using dynagrow. After these pics were taken I added another 10 gallons of just water and brought total EC to 0.9.

I added some quick connect shutoff valves. These allow me to turn off the water to one arm (except for one end mister..design flaw - didn't want to repipe the whole thing for six misters) and disconnect each arm individually. I am then able to pull it out and clean the nozzles. Some goop was starting to clog some of them up - either a small bit of bioslime or more likely leftover glue from connecting the piping. I had disconnected the 5 micron filter and was just running the 90 micron - I may need to reconnect.

I cleaned the nozzles with a needle from the water inlet side then run a few minutes through an ultrasonic cleaner with vinegar and soap then needle anything remaining again. I'd like to design a rubber fitting I can put the nozzle in and just blow it out reverse style with compressed air after the ultrasonic cleaning.

Quick Connect fittings added:


Oh, here's a mist shot for you.

Been lurking and following your adventure. Have always been intrigued with HPA, and diy. I know I'll never try,,,,, life is too short and I've got other stuff to do. This round of clones look much better, and the roots are great, growth above the table top should start to kick in more soon.

As far as the scrog and actually achieving the lb goal under the low pen led's you'll need to grow horz and maximize it. If it were me this is what I'd do. I'd let them all grow till they are at, near, or slightly above your trellis framing. Then I'd top them 2 or 3 nodes down. Now install your trellis and continue veg until you can spread the mains a little under the trellis, and the lower branches are near the screen. Now flip and spend the next 3 wks keeping it horz.

From what I can see you've got about 1sf per plant, and the trellis frame is about a foot above the table top. With this height you need to veg longer, to get the height and then the spread for filling the screen to the max. If your screen could be at 6" you could flip at least a wk sooner, but I think you'll get a better yield giving the extra veg and leaving the screen at the frame height.

Best of luck with your grow, and I'll be watching and lurking.

Very observant @WattSaver and thank you for your input! Yes - I do have the plants at 12" on center but 6" from the edges and the top of the trellis is at 12" with the bottom of the trellis at about 10"

My instinct says you're right about the height, but I've been told gorilla glue #4 stretches 2-3 times it's height in flower and if I averaged all the heights I'd guess they're at about 7" average some 10" some 6". Due to the limited beam angle all of the plants around the edge will be trained to grow strictly "in".

What I'm worried about is the stretch. The closest comparable I've seen is the aeroflo which has plants 8" on center and a much smaller space for the roots. With those I've seen the grow by Heath Robinson and here's the height data he had, pulled off another site and put in quotes starting height on left finished on right:

Heath Robinson said:

Start of 12/12 and Now

3 1/2″ = 15 1/2″
2 2/4″ = 14″
2 1/2″ = 19″
3 1/2″ = 17″
2″ = 15″

Click to expand...

@Heath Robinson Perhaps you have some input on the expected stretch in this style of system? @StinkBud you run a similar setup.@NurseNancy420 with this strain? Should I veg another week? Here they are today at 10 days of veg (minus one net, need more hook screws.)







I was thinking the easiest way to do a double net to support the weight would be to have one net on top of the trellis and one on the bottom. To do this I have added some 1" screw hooks to the underside of the trellis to support the weight of everything at approximately 9" with a net.

A second net will be mounted on top of the support structure and the horizontal growth would be trained to stay under this second net with just the bud sites popping up. If I get 3x stretch I'd be at 21" average on the apical meristem plus whatever the side branches do - which nursenancy said there was a lot of horizontal growth on this strain after the flip. I only have 6" of space around each plant site if they all end up about even.

This second week has been under 24 hours of light and they'e getting super bushy. Some are already to the trellis and I wanted to slow their vertical stretch. I switched to 20/4 to get a little more stretch.

Edit to add: If I can average at least two zips dry from each plant I will pass 1gram/watt

I stepped in it. Forgive my typos, I'm drunk.

So I changed my water on Sunday and I left the valve open over night that goes to the drain and I think some may have flowed back into the reservoir from my dedicated grow drain field. Remind me to get a fucking check valve..dumbass. The next day I smelt the root chamber but I couldn't on earth for me tell what it was, noticed the open valve and closed it. I thought it might have been "mossy" or "shroomy". Today I definitely recognized it as a "musty wet root" smell. The roots are browning but not slimey and it doesn't smell like full on rot which I've had before..you'll know rot when you have it..even if you never smelled rot before you will know the smell of rot it is unmistakable and you will think "smells like rotting".

I had one clone that had never really taken off in height but was bushy that was drooping and I replaced it with a healthier one.

So I drained everything out and refilled with fresh water and reinoculated with a tea I make. The last time I made this tea the roots exploded with white growth.
-2 teaspoons ogbiowar foliar pack
-2 teaspoons ogbiowar root pack
-1/4 teaspoon zho
-30 mL aquashield
-1 teaspoon molasses
-2 gallons RO water

brewed for 2 hours - less than @Heisenberg recommends but OG biowar says a shorter brewed tea will be more diverse. Any input heisenberg?



I also put something along the lines of 22mL/gallon of aquashield into the reservoir directly and immediately started another brew that I can dump in tomorrow after my hangover clears and hopefully I wake up to some beautiful plants.

By the time I got everything drained out and the pump running again a few more plants were starting to wilt a bit, probably because I was drunk and had the chamber open the whole time thinking the oxygenation might kill off some of the bad bacteria. Hopefully they bounce back. I gave them a foliar with water and superthrive.

I do have three more plants that may be infected, but I'm not sure - their roots don't look any worse than anyone elses really but one is small and the leaves were a little light and the other was bigger and a bit droopy and it's leaves were light and it had a few bottom leaves looking particularly bad with lightening and what looked like calcium deficiency

Day 15 of veg
Temps: 80-84 degrees (optimal for CO2 according to gov studies)
res temp: 72 (when I checked - I have a 55 gallon holding tank that has recirculating UV filtration but it's in a warm room [71 degrees water] - and when I refilled the nute res I first turned the pump on and let it run for awhile so it had gotten up to 74 before turning back on the timer)
EC: .784 total
35-40 gallons RO water with:
12.25 g epsom
7 g calnit
100 mL dynagrow foliage pro
125 mL botanica silica blast
900 mL aquashield
1/2 scoop pondzyme and whatever zho powder per 40 gallons (all in a fish tank filter bag)
56 watts/sqft LED about 15" above the canopy
1 minute on 5 minutes of watering at 190 psi. This should be something like 3 and a half gallons of mist every cycle.

Particularly sick:




Plants:

Well it occured to me that you're not supposed to filter your compost tea past 400 microns. My filter on the HP setup is much smaller than that. Reason being is it can filter out the beneficial fungi.

I took the aforementioned sick plant, put it back in a LP cloner, and it fully recovered.

So today I put in three rows of 12 lp misters into the HP setup, but my pump isn't strong enough to run them the way they should be, I'm getting about a 6" throw. Hopefully the throw is enough to keep them "wet" enough until I can get a bigger pump on top of the NFT effect it has going across the bottom of the chamber for those whom roots are long enough. I lowered temps to 75, CO2 to 400ppm, and lights to 25 watts per square foot. Just trying to keep them alive until I can get the LP setup.

The only thing I haven't tried is running HP with chlorine dioxide. If that works, then HP may be viable, but outside of that I don't think it's worth a rats ass. Even more - I didn't see substantially higher growth rates as opposed to LP aero even when it was working right.

3+ gallons per misting is more or less lpa already. While you get sorted you could just double the misting duration to deliver 7+ gallons, soaking wet is soaking wet whether its acheived via high pressure, low pressure mist/spray or simply dunking the roots in a bucket of nutes

Well right now I have it misting 30 on and 30 off. I'm only operating 3 of the rails though as 3 rails are currently filled with the red misters. Still fills the chamber up with lots of steam. The smell is gone and the plants are starting to grow some new white roots. I'm still kicking myself for leaving the drain valve open. I've lost anywhere from 5-10 plants for sure and some are doing okay but this really is a ball buster.

I can't get the LPA to provide enough pressure to even operate 36 misters effectively and I'm running a 6600gph pump. The only thing I can think is that the pump can't handle it with the 1/2" lines and I'd need to increase the tubing size in order for it to be effective. Any input?