aeroponics

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Aeroponics is the lost Russian method of growing plants in nuted, steam, at least the roots anyway
we call it the turkish bath, as thats what you are trying to imitate

its largely replaced by the DWC, deep water culture method,
the real issue with SAM(steam aeration method, thats a first on RIU ??)

is the misters get clogged up with nute salts, the same (used to) happens with DWC,
but they got larger nozzles and better salts than the SAM guys.
Once the misters get clogged the element overheats, and burns out,
no steam to carry nutes to the roots ...shit!

The last I saw this in operation was in Germany 09,
and then the guy was using a commercial feet bath as a test
it too failed, currently we are waiting data from the space station
on how plants are grown in zero 'G' ...for input!
That's ultrasonic aero. It doesn't work for a variety of reasons, biggest prob;em being the discs are not designed for > 300 ppm/tds. Other options are low pressure and high pressure aero. I have experience with them all. None beat simple flood and drain for ease and consistency
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
oic what his question was now, duh.

and yes you can even get the pump and sprayer heads at most big chain hardware stores. home depot sells the little submersible pumps for fountains and such and they have a huge assortment of sprayer heads. i got a few different kinds and the ones i like best i think i got off ebay real cheap. the small pumps are low pressure and fairly low volume. i don't think i have a pic of my trial run with four different heads on it and i was really surprised by the differences of each. well i dug and i can't find the pic of the unit with four different sprayers on it. i quickly learned which one i like best, bought lots of em and have built several of these things now. I am not sure that circular looking one is going to be any good at all. but it only takes 10-20 min to make one. three tees, four elbows, 10 1" sections and four caps. to connect to the first tee i can't remember what the part is called and it's sometimes different depending on which pump you buy and usually about a 1" section for it as well.

with these little red spray heads i haven't had any clog yet. Mine is an ongoing experiment every time. i am getting better but i have always grown in soil or soilless.

i love these little standalone aerobuckets. no piping, no plumbing, no leaks or floods. easily movable. easy to change out the nutes, just get an extra bucket and make it up in there and just transfer the lid containing the plants and the pump itself and done.

perhaps i'll try to find the sprayer i like so well on ebay and post a link later. gotta get outside and get busy.
Much smaller diameter tubing would increase spray pressure. Have you tried using a deep cycle timer for the plants? Most lp aero fails due to over watering the roots, which look like soggy spaghetti. Start with ~ 3 minutes on 10 minutes off 24/7, but you might drop to 1 minute on/3 minutes off
 

completenoobie

Well-Known Member
Much smaller diameter tubing would increase spray pressure. Have you tried using a deep cycle timer for the plants? Most lp aero fails due to over watering the roots, which look like soggy spaghetti. Start with ~ 3 minutes on 10 minutes off 24/7, but you might drop to 1 minute on/3 minutes off

that has been the exact opposite of every one of my experiences. I use cheap timers, 15 on and 45 up to an hour and 45 off. Hasn't failed me for years. I use 264 gph pumps with the little red 360 degree sprayers and they will spray a ten foot pattern with the lid off the bucket.

I recently contracted root rot one one plant. a single bucket. My first problem in years, my last problem was mites on an outdoor grow about 4 years ago. That one plant is the only one I have ever had an issue with roots and it is the only one I have ever had look like soggy spaghetti. I recently changed my routine but I have been assured by several people that it was not the routine change that was the problem.

I did recently buy one of those timers and can't figure out how to program it.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Much smaller diameter tubing would increase spray pressure. Have you tried using a deep cycle timer for the plants? Most lp aero fails due to over watering the roots, which look like soggy spaghetti. Start with ~ 3 minutes on 10 minutes off 24/7, but you might drop to 1 minute on/3 minutes off
Smaller diameter tubing will not increase nozzle pressure, it will actually restrict flow and pressure at nozzle.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Much smaller diameter tubing would increase spray pressure. Have you tried using a deep cycle timer for the plants? Most lp aero fails due to over watering the roots, which look like soggy spaghetti. Start with ~ 3 minutes on 10 minutes off 24/7, but you might drop to 1 minute on/3 minutes off
How do you over water roots? I've ran a cont. spray and they loved it, it was actually the only way to keep temps low in the root zone, the heat was the real killer.
 

completenoobie

Well-Known Member
technically a smaller diameter will increase pressure by resisting flow. the pump will still be trying to pump the same volume and with decreased capacity the pressure will increase as you place more stress on the pump causing premature failure if overloaded for too long. It will increase nozzle pressure, which is a bad thing, not a good thing.

I keep seeing high pressure aeroponics mentioned and have seen it called the one true aeroponics. I have studied aeroponics for years and it has been around for decades and until a couple days ago I had never seen the term "high pressure aeroponics". Think waterjet where one uses high pressure to cut through plate steel, not good for roots.

I agree completely with being unable to overwater roots in an aero system. when I first started I had no timers and simply plugged the pumps into the outlet and ran them for weeks and weeks and weeks and never had an issue. there comes a point of diminishing return on investment and a cheap timer set for 15 on and 45 or more off works absolutely perfect and saves a few pennies electricity and heat production. I still run a pump plugged in directly to an outlet for my cloner buckets sometimes.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
technically a smaller diameter will increase pressure by resisting flow. the pump will still be trying to pump the same volume and with decreased capacity the pressure will increase as you place more stress on the pump causing premature failure if overloaded for too long. It will increase nozzle pressure, which is a bad thing, not a good thing.

I keep seeing high pressure aeroponics mentioned and have seen it called the one true aeroponics. I have studied aeroponics for years and it has been around for decades and until a couple days ago I had never seen the term "high pressure aeroponics". Think waterjet where one uses high pressure to cut through plate steel, not good for roots.

I agree completely with being unable to overwater roots in an aero system. when I first started I had no timers and simply plugged the pumps into the outlet and ran them for weeks and weeks and weeks and never had an issue. there comes a point of diminishing return on investment and a cheap timer set for 15 on and 45 or more off works absolutely perfect and saves a few pennies electricity and heat production. I still run a pump plugged in directly to an outlet for my cloner buckets sometimes.
Your wrong about the tubing, keeping the tubing as big as possible up to the sprayer will create more pressure at the nozzle, the drop happens at the restriction not after it, all the smaller tubing will do is cause a pressure drop at the restriction and further drop it through the length but really it's a mute point. As for water timing I have found that it is possible to overwater in my trays but only before roots have establish themselves. I've seen it many times here where ops post a pick of a small seedling with the leaves blotching and turning white due to roots being over saturated before they are establish (this is typically in starter cubes). Once there is a established root structure then I can flood or spray as much as I want but yup it's not economical for lack of a better term. One hurdle I had was to get that initial timing down to a point where the roots thrived but did not dry out or got to wet and started to rot. I now flood three times every 24 hrs with my setup until I get roots growing out the cube well. I tried the LPS setup but went back to flood and drain with chiller :).
 

Father Ramirez

Well-Known Member
I guess I'm just ultra lucky, because while rooting cuttings in my new cloner, they looked so perfect and grew so quickly, I decided to let four plants live their lives out in the box. I don't test ppm, just follow nute instructions, pH the water, and monitor temp. They are huge and gorgeous from tip to tip.
Maybe they'll get too heavy to remain in the neoprene collar, but I think root weight will give a teeter totter effect and they'll be ok. Still in veg, but oh so many bud sites. I'm eager to watch them bud out. Most fun growing I've ever had! Yay aero/hydro combo!
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
that has been the exact opposite of every one of my experiences. I use cheap timers, 15 on and 45 up to an hour and 45 off. Hasn't failed me for years. I use 264 gph pumps with the little red 360 degree sprayers and they will spray a ten foot pattern with the lid off the bucket.

I recently contracted root rot one one plant. a single bucket. My first problem in years, my last problem was mites on an outdoor grow about 4 years ago. That one plant is the only one I have ever had an issue with roots and it is the only one I have ever had look like soggy spaghetti. I recently changed my routine but I have been assured by several people that it was not the routine change that was the problem.

I did recently buy one of those timers and can't figure out how to program it.
I assure you you will see an entirely different and better root structure with a lot more root hairs, which provide more surface are to feed your plants
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
technically a smaller diameter will increase pressure by resisting flow. the pump will still be trying to pump the same volume and with decreased capacity the pressure will increase as you place more stress on the pump causing premature failure if overloaded for too long. It will increase nozzle pressure, which is a bad thing, not a good thing.

I keep seeing high pressure aeroponics mentioned and have seen it called the one true aeroponics. I have studied aeroponics for years and it has been around for decades and until a couple days ago I had never seen the term "high pressure aeroponics". Think waterjet where one uses high pressure to cut through plate steel, not good for roots.

I agree completely with being unable to overwater roots in an aero system. when I first started I had no timers and simply plugged the pumps into the outlet and ran them for weeks and weeks and weeks and never had an issue. there comes a point of diminishing return on investment and a cheap timer set for 15 on and 45 or more off works absolutely perfect and saves a few pennies electricity and heat production. I still run a pump plugged in directly to an outlet for my cloner buckets sometimes.
well you start with incorrect analysis of high pressure aero, so... what else are you wrong about?

what high pressure does is turn the liquid flowing through into a ~ 60-80 micron mist. Of course this requires using high pressure tubing and mist heads that are designed to handle the pumps ~ 100 psi pressure. The roots develop ultra fine root hair system that I liken to looking like cotton candy. When these roots get misted the plants grow like crazy. My issue was temps inside the root chamber need t be lower than my environment allows, but the experience taught me a lot about how to manipulate a root system for max efficiency for the genre
 

completenoobie

Well-Known Member
the tubing restriction is exactly what I said. when you go from a large diameter supply to a smaller diameter you restrict the flow and the smaller tubing will have higher pressure and lower volume. the restriction causes an inversely proportional change. pressure and volume have an inverse proportional relationship with regards to pipe diameter

I will stay the fuck away from anything high pressure period, I don't care what y'all's opinions are about the matter.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
lol. high gph low pressure pumps will not blow up low pressure mist heads when using 1" pvc, but both will provide more bioavailable nutes for the roots to process. I know: I have used that method along the way to HPA, which can work great when root box temps do not exceed ~ 74*s. Since I could not, I switched back to simple flood and drain, with a few twists I learned from HPA. Plants/roots prefer a dry period o process each meal before getting another one. I flood every 1-2 hours. The nutes drain back to an outboard rez, which makes it easy to refresh, replace, and check pH and ppms

Roughly 3 weeks to go
 

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Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
the tubing restriction is exactly what I said. when you go from a large diameter supply to a smaller diameter you restrict the flow and the smaller tubing will have higher pressure and lower volume. the restriction causes an inversely proportional change. pressure and volume have an inverse proportional relationship with regards to pipe diameter

I will stay the fuck away from anything high pressure period, I don't care what y'all's opinions are about the matter.
Yup ok then ;). Is your small tubing like .5" long? The pressure increases at the point of restriction, which is the beginning of the tube, at the end of the tube you now have restricted flow and pressure drop from the tube ..... trust me, my career is built on pressure drop ..... and yes I would stay away from that 80 psig stuff, it's a killer lol.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I guess I'm just ultra lucky, because while rooting cuttings in my new cloner, they looked so perfect and grew so quickly, I decided to let four plants live their lives out in the box. I don't test ppm, just follow nute instructions, pH the water, and monitor temp. They are huge and gorgeous from tip to tip.
Maybe they'll get too heavy to remain in the neoprene collar, but I think root weight will give a teeter totter effect and they'll be ok. Still in veg, but oh so many bud sites. I'm eager to watch them bud out. Most fun growing I've ever had! Yay aero/hydro combo!
I haven't tried to clone using a spray setup yet as I've had great luck using the same method for decades although I do have one ready to go, built it a few years ago :). The issue I had was temps in the root zone and switched back with out really giving it a solid try. I'm going back to individual bucket recirc set up I think or DTW to have more flexibility in plant movement for perpetual. Tough choices lol.
 

completenoobie

Well-Known Member
I never said any pump will blow anything up. Certainly not a low pressure pump no matter what kind of manifold or jets you run.

I don't have any tubing in any of my setups. The pumps I use have threads that fit 1/2" pvc pipe threads and I use 1/2 pvc for the entire manifold and drill and tap holes anywhere I need for the micro sprayers, from 4 to maybe 12

I started cloning tomato plants in a plain water homemade aero cloner and was absolutely astonished at both the success rate and the time to root. Between 7 and 10 days for a mass of roots and I have never had any other method so I just ran with it.

if it ain't Baroque, don't Fax it.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I never said any pump will blow anything up. Certainly not a low pressure pump no matter what kind of manifold or jets you run.

I don't have any tubing in any of my setups. The pumps I use have threads that fit 1/2" pvc pipe threads and I use 1/2 pvc for the entire manifold and drill and tap holes anywhere I need for the micro sprayers, from 4 to maybe 12

I started cloning tomato plants in a plain water homemade aero cloner and was absolutely astonished at both the success rate and the time to root. Between 7 and 10 days for a mass of roots and I have never had any other method so I just ran with it.

if it ain't Baroque, don't Fax it.
So you don't use tubing then? Good choice lol. Yup best way is to tap into pvc, I use 3/4.
 

completenoobie

Well-Known Member
no tubing at all. the reason I use 1/2" pvc is because that is what fits directly onto the pump with no adapter no reducer no nothing. it screws directly into the pump and uses less parts and pieces and glue etc etc etc.

this is an older manifold I started with and has a few more sprinkler jets than I use now and has a different connector

the old pumps had a male 1/2" thread that fit that pvc female and I adapted it to fit a totally different oddball pump which was junk and I scrapped it. Now my pumps have a female thread that use that same basic adapter but with male threads instead of female. the manifold also helps prevent the roots from dangling directly into the nute solution which somebody accused me of having a combo aero/DWC which I actively try to make NOT happen on purpose.

My pumps are the creekstone 264 gph from harbor freight and I use a 25 off coupon and get them for about 14 bucks each and are much better quality than the active aqua 264 gph from grow shops. I spent twice the money one active aqua only to have them fail withing a couple of months and so far I have dozens of the harbor freight pumps that have been running for almost 2 years. The ONE I had fail was the one that got clogged with pythium roots.
manifold.jpg manifold2.jpg
 

completenoobie

Well-Known Member
not my original idea, I was building a totally different and far less efficient design and happened across this one on youtube and it uses two less tees than I was and is just better all the way around AND has more room for as many sprinkler heads as you wish

but glad to be of help and pass along something useful to someone
 
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