All Natural Organics. The Dons' Summaries + FAQ Thread. <2017-'18>

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
i will just topdress then. i typically topdress a "bloom" and compost blend about 1-2 weeks into flower. maybe i could do that, and then a couple weeks later topdress the frass to finish them out. what do you think?
I think that the more you use frass, the more often that is, the more it can speed things up for you, for each week you use it you can almost shave a half day or full day off of the flowering regime it seems..

as well as the more protection it can serve, against pathogens that kill seedlings, or botrytis / even PM that effects older plants etc.. I've used it in all 20 of my last rounds and haven't had any issues with these problems!!
 

firstnamelast

Well-Known Member
you're missing oyster shell flower for your liming agent :) . necessary for a peat based mix! DT, are you not using OSF?
Yea you're right, I didn't see it in any of Don's recipes so I didn't add it, but I may have missed it. I had it in my other one wasn't sure if it was necessary tho
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
I think with my biochar having a higher ph, and with the water having a neutral ph, and with the humus also buffering ph, we have wiggled away from it..

we also noticed that some of our most acidic plants (when testing runoff ph) were the biggest beasts by far, that we just stopped worrying about liming so much... and more so have been working on a more soluble calcium regime.. for my strains that seems to be more important than anything, especially as lower NPK eaters.. the carbonates as a whole group are excluded from organic chemistry too so I have never been huge on them tbh.

even in our trials where we are doing 5 to 10 little test plants in each recipe, amended the exact same but in different bases, 6 different bases we are testing, that the double peat blend is doing really well.. very green and almost 2x as big as our DugCoir babies..

So yeah, not only warming up to peat, which I should, being Canadian, but also challenging the whole you need to lime thing.. but I'm a contrarian thinker, perhaps, and like to see things for myself to believe it. Respectfully!

Of course, no till apps will be the true test, over several rounds, as the ph should dive more over time, but I'm going to gauge that as we go.. with lots of observations and testing along the way

@firstnamelast
@ShLUbY
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
I think with my biochar having a higher ph, and with the water having a neutral ph, and with the humus also buffering ph, we have wiggled away from it..

we also noticed that some of our most acidic plants (when testing runoff ph) were the biggest beasts by far, that we just stopped worrying about liming so much... and more so have been working on a more soluble calcium regime.. for my strains that seems to be more important than anything, especially as lower NPK eaters.. the carbonates as a whole group are excluded from organic chemistry too so I have never been huge on them tbh.

even in our trials where we are doing 5 to 10 little test plants in each recipe, amended the exact same but in different bases, 6 different bases we are testing, that the double peat blend is doing really well.. very green and almost 2x as big as our DugCoir babies..

So yeah, not only warming up to peat, which I should, being Canadian, but also challenging the whole you need to lime thing.. but I'm a contrarian thinker, perhaps, and like to see things for myself to believe it. Respectfully!

Of course, no till apps will be the true test, over several rounds, as the ph should dive more over time, but I'm going to gauge that as we go.. with lots of observations and testing along the way

@firstnamelast
@ShLUbY

what kind of values were you getting in the run off?
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
I believe in the 4 range on the lowest one, which was also non organic btw.. which was not my plant but was reported to be an absolute beast and arguably the biggest of the round at that spot.
For the organic ones, I've never had to worry about run off. I normally use coco in the mix. lots of humus too. and 1 C per cf of crushed egg shell. I used to use crab shell meal too but I'm replacing it now. I actually want to play with ph a bit now.
So as the side by side recipes all get going I'll be sure to note the differences between all 6.
Im hoping to photograph different shades and colours of anthocyanin.

Check this out tho

The organic carbon and porous cavities in the biochar will attract beneficial microbes such as nitrogen fixing bacteria and nutrient transporting fungi such as arbuscular or endo-mycorrhizal fungi. Biochar’s surface area has both negative and positive charges that attract positive and negative charged nutrient ions like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and other micronutrients. During the compost making process, these nutrients have the potential to leach through the compost pile and be lost. Microbes that are attracted to and protected by the biochar also have the opportunity to incorporate these nutrients into their body mass and wastes and upon their expiration, these nutrients are retained in the compost and will be more available to plants as food.

The negatively charged biochar surface area can also increase the amount of hydrogen ions in the soil causing the pH to increase, which may be beneficial for some plants. This “liming” effect may beneficially treat acidic soils.


So with this said, I would say at the same time, I haven't forgotten about liming altogether!
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
I believe in the 4 range on the lowest one, which was also non organic btw.. which was not my plant but was reported to be an absolute beast and arguably the biggest of the round at that spot.
For the organic ones, I've never had to worry about run off. I normally use coco in the mix. lots of humus too. and 1 C per cf of crushed egg shell. I used to use crab shell meal too but I'm replacing it now. I actually want to play with ph a bit now.
So as the side by side recipes all get going I'll be sure to note the differences between all 6.
Im hoping to photograph different shades and colours of anthocyanin.

Check this out tho

The organic carbon and porous cavities in the biochar will attract beneficial microbes such as nitrogen fixing bacteria and nutrient transporting fungi such as arbuscular or endo-mycorrhizal fungi. Biochar’s surface area has both negative and positive charges that attract positive and negative charged nutrient ions like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and other micronutrients. During the compost making process, these nutrients have the potential to leach through the compost pile and be lost. Microbes that are attracted to and protected by the biochar also have the opportunity to incorporate these nutrients into their body mass and wastes and upon their expiration, these nutrients are retained in the compost and will be more available to plants as food.

The negatively charged biochar surface area can also increase the amount of hydrogen ions in the soil causing the pH to increase, which may be beneficial for some plants. This “liming” effect may beneficially treat acidic soils.


So with this said, I would say at the same time, I haven't forgotten about liming altogether!
gotta run to class for a couple hours. i will have a detailed response to this when i get home later.
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
permanent BASE / quantity to fit

AERATION BLEND, 40-45%

  • pumice
  • biochar
  • diatomaceous earth ROCKS (do NOT sub FLOUR)
BASE BLEND, 35-40%
  • well rinsed, low salt coir (or sub peat)
  • fungal compost if avail
PREMIUM CASTINGS, 15% (or 20% Vermicompost)
  • fresh worm castings..... aerated to 25% (pumice, biochar etc)

continuous use / larger quantity ?

SUPER CLEAN MEAL BLEND
  • kelp meal
  • neem meal
PREMIUM MINERAL BLEND
  • basalt
  • gypsum
  • glacial rock dust
  • greensand
  • soft rock P
  • Lanbeinite

NATURAL BOOSTERS
  • coconut (young thai, or canned - one ingredient)
  • epsom salt (mg s4 i.e. vitamin & mineral enhancing foliar)
  • aloe vera plant / flakes
  • sugar blend or succanat
  • bsfly frass PERHAPS BUY 5 LB MAX TO START, No more than ONE YEAR SUPPLY
  • ENDO Myco Fungi
(LIMING AGENTS)
Biochar


*****************************************************************
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
*****************************************************************

COMPOST AIDS / POTENTIAL LONGTERM MEAL REPLACEMENTS
  • Nettles
  • Dandelions
  • Comfrey
  • Borage

DELETED NOTES
  • ? rice hulls / buckwheat hulls NOT NEEDED IF USING DE (which is also an Si input) Just work on leaf mould / compost.. I do like a decompacting agent but you can always add something premium for free in the summer.. as it does take time for a mix to compact.. (100 days of top watering etc)
  • peat Choose 1 or the other / both if you like balance, but if choosing just peat DON'T SKIP BIOCHAR
  • crab shell meal, as of 2018 Im personally phasing out of these last too, but if you feel its needed, can add 1/2 C per CF
  • Fish bone meal, and for this I used only 2 TBSP per CF last year, but sometimes skip.. as I am looking to eliminate it completely as well.
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
so heres my plan of attack pretty sure iv nailed down what seeds i wanna buy gunna grow a couple out while my soil mix is cooking then do an 100 percent soil grow i think these are the strains im looking at so far View attachment 4074373
Sick buddy, J will put those aside for you right a now.. any chance you can delete that post though, ahaha, the brass here kicked me off here for a month once, just for promoting lol, thanks brother, you a legend!
 

firstnamelast

Well-Known Member
permanent BASE / quantity to fit

AERATION BLEND, 40-45%

  • pumice
  • biochar
  • diatomaceous earth ROCKS (do NOT sub FLOUR)
BASE BLEND, 35-40%
  • well rinsed, low salt coir (or sub peat)
  • fungal compost if avail
PREMIUM CASTINGS, 15% (or 20% Vermicompost)
  • fresh worm castings..... aerated to 25% (pumice, biochar etc)

continuous use / larger quantity ?

SUPER CLEAN MEAL BLEND
  • kelp meal
  • neem meal
PREMIUM MINERAL BLEND
  • basalt
  • gypsum
  • glacial rock dust
  • greensand
  • soft rock P
  • Lanbeinite
NATURAL BOOSTERS
  • coconut (young thai, or canned - one ingredient)
  • epsom salt (mg s4 i.e. vitamin & mineral enhancing foliar)
  • aloe vera plant / flakes
  • sugar blend or succanat
  • bsfly frass PERHAPS BUY 5 LB MAX TO START, No more than ONE YEAR SUPPLY
  • ENDO Myco Fungi
(LIMING AGENTS)
Biochar


*****************************************************************
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
*****************************************************************

COMPOST AIDS / POTENTIAL LONGTERM MEAL REPLACEMENTS
  • Nettles
  • Dandelions
  • Comfrey
  • Borage

DELETED NOTES
  • ? rice hulls / buckwheat hulls NOT NEEDED IF USING DE (which is also an Si input) Just work on leaf mould / compost.. I do like a decompacting agent but you can always add something premium for free in the summer.. as it does take time for a mix to compact.. (100 days of top watering etc)
  • peat Choose 1 or the other / both if you like balance, but if choosing just peat DON'T SKIP BIOCHAR
  • crab shell meal, as of 2018 Im personally phasing out of these last too, but if you feel its needed, can add 1/2 C per CF
  • Fish bone meal, and for this I used only 2 TBSP per CF last year, but sometimes skip.. as I am looking to eliminate it completely as well.
This cleared a lot up for me thank you very much, some good stuff here. No oyster shell flour then? I pretty much tried to combine your method and my friend's lol didn't work, too conflicting
 
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DonTesla

Well-Known Member
This cleared a lot up for me thank you very much, some good stuff here. No oyster shell flour then? I pretty much tried to combine your method and my friend's lol didn't work, too conflicting
Glad to hear that.
OSF, yeah, no need imo. If you run with peat or double peat you may want it at some point, (maybe?) but not needed if you run the mix at 10% biochar, imo. as well as introduce fresh humus come summer.. which is around the corner, another great buffer.

The good thing about doing a different mix than your friends, is that you will get to compare the quality and performances. Especially the smell and flav. Maybe you can use the same seeds, and run clones for even better trials..
I've put like 5 days into this so please share any findings with me!! lol! just bugging ya buddy

This is basically a vegan recipe and should make for super pungent, super clean, super expressive, super smooth, super healthy herb.. hormone free.. antibiotic free... steroid free.. blood free... bone free.. stress free.. cortisol free .. adrenaline free.. meat free.. etc etc etc

I honestly believe our recipe gets leaner cleaner and meaner each and every year, so this is the best version yet, in theory.

I say in theory, cause the fish bone meal, and shell crab meal are recent pull outs, and the langbeinite is new.

But you wanted whats new, and so here it is!!
exciting times.. that gypsum and basalt should really amp things up in the smell and flav, as well as brix dept for you. Looking forward big time!!

Have you decided on your strain yet by chance! Can also do all 3 of our top cuts, in an elite mixed (seed) pack, and toss in 5 to 10 heirloom veggies on the house, eh.. if you want to sub your mj freebie in for veggies, that is, nothing wrong with that at all ! :)
 

firstnamelast

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that.
OSF, yeah, no need imo. If you run with peat or double peat you may want it at some point, (maybe?) but not needed if you run the mix at 10% biochar, imo. as well as introduce fresh humus come summer.. which is around the corner, another great buffer.

The good thing about doing a different mix than your friends, is that you will get to compare the quality and performances. Especially the smell and flav. Maybe you can use the same seeds, and run clones for even better trials..
I've put like 5 days into this so please share any findings with me!! lol! just bugging ya buddy

This is basically a vegan recipe and should make for super pungent, super clean, super expressive, super smooth, super healthy herb.. hormone free.. antibiotic free... steroid free.. blood free... bone free.. stress free.. cortisol free .. adrenaline free.. meat free.. etc etc etc

I honestly believe our recipe gets leaner cleaner and meaner each and every year, so this is the best version yet, in theory.

I say in theory, cause the fish bone meal, and shell crab meal are recent pull outs, and the langbeinite is new.

But you wanted whats new, and so here it is!!
exciting times.. that gypsum and basalt should really amp things up in the smell and flav, as well as brix dept for you. Looking forward big time!!

Have you decided on your strain yet by chance! Can also do all 3 of our top cuts, in an elite mixed (seed) pack, and toss in 5 to 10 heirloom veggies on the house, eh.. if you want to sub your mj freebie in for veggies, that is, nothing wrong with that at all ! :)
Lol I know you have, I had a few different people giving me advice so I had to weed through the information. One person says "no don't ever do that" and another says "definitely do it always" so it can be overwhelming. My friend is way too pushy in this dept and difficult to talk to. He's worried about criticism from a rookie. Trust me you didn't waste your time! I get it finally lol.
 
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ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
I believe in the 4 range on the lowest one, which was also non organic btw.. which was not my plant but was reported to be an absolute beast and arguably the biggest of the round at that spot.
For the organic ones, I've never had to worry about run off. I normally use coco in the mix. lots of humus too. and 1 C per cf of crushed egg shell. I used to use crab shell meal too but I'm replacing it now. I actually want to play with ph a bit now.
So as the side by side recipes all get going I'll be sure to note the differences between all 6.
Im hoping to photograph different shades and colours of anthocyanin.
the one with the 4 pH of non organic run off, i've had the same experiences with when i used to grow with the organic bottles. medium pH would be in the 4s but the plants did fine (roots suffered at the end though). i think it was because it gradually fell towards the end of flower when the lime ran out because of frequent waterings of 6.0-6.5 ph. that's my hypothesis. when i started adding lime to those mixes, my pH was solid all the way through, and i was crushing yields. amazing how one thing makes that big of a difference

lower pH's will definitely get you some color changes as nutrient availability will be not as great (particularly with your staples, N, P, K, Ca, Mg, and S), but i know living things can adjust and make micro-pH-climates in the soil to increase availability. but as long as you're not above 7 things should be relatively fine to a certain extent. it'll be interesting to see what you learn though and ill be happy if you share the results! :) if i had to hypothesize, anything below 5.0 is likely going to have a hard time being "the best" if it's that low for the plant's whole life.

check this out tho

The organic carbon and porous cavities in the biochar will attract beneficial microbes such as nitrogen fixing bacteria and nutrient transporting fungi such as arbuscular or endo-mycorrhizal fungi. Biochar’s surface area has both negative and positive charges that attract positive and negative charged nutrient ions like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and other micronutrients. During the compost making process, these nutrients have the potential to leach through the compost pile and be lost. Microbes that are attracted to and protected by the biochar also have the opportunity to incorporate these nutrients into their body mass and wastes and upon their expiration, these nutrients are retained in the compost and will be more available to plants as food.

The negatively charged biochar surface area can also increase the amount of hydrogen ions in the soil causing the pH to increase, which may be beneficial for some plants. This “liming” effect may beneficially treat acidic soils.


So with this said, I would say at the same time, I haven't forgotten about liming altogether!
the part in bold is contradictory to the previous sentence as worded. It describes the opposite of a "liming effect". lime decreases pH and increases hydroxide ions in the soil, which buffer to make water with the hydrogen protons. so yes, negative charge bio char will indeed increase pH and hold on to cations, particularly hydrogen.

but in the paragraph they also state that there are + charge surfaces on the char as well, so maybe the char holds on to hydroxide ions effectively as well and releases them when they are needed. water is a great "leaving group" when it comes to that sort of reaction which would help neutralize peat based soils.

i see why would wouldn't need them with coir because of the lack of acidity... but did you say that your peat based mixes performed better than the coir ones? and we must remember, the plant pumps plenty of hydrogen into the rhizosphere! and a cup of ground egg shells per cf is definitely a good supply of liming agent... so maybe it was more balanced than you think??? i dunno...... so many variables! hard to test six different mediums and get undeniable results. be more effective as 6 different mineral and/or nutrient blends in the same medium to really understand what's going on and then move on to a different medium. the joys of being a scientist! just sucks that the life cycles are so long. not the best model organism for this kind of soil research but definitely worth it!

Cheers! :peace:
 
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