im4satori
Well-Known Member
some strains are more sensitive to N than others... kush strain for example may not do well with high N or high temps
and type of medium im sure plays a big roll in mitigating excess
best nutrients to use in hydro
- Thread starter Bernie420
- Start date
and type of medium im sure plays a big roll in mitigating excess
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
But, like with Hydro Research V + B (another high N one part formula) it should be fine for vegging, no?
Johnny Lawrence
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but I still get unusual and more frequent ph swings than with my standard nute mix.
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
Are you using the 500 or 700 scale. Is everything you post using that scale?
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
I have a few questions if you dont mind.
Do you know what the ppm;s for the MPK is?
You have time to make me a formula using the megacrop for bloom to address the high N? Or something do you recommend I do something different than below?
I started my megacrop flower run the other day. I started with 55 gallons and went by the notion of going by ppm's to get where I wanted to be and that was about 700 ppm;s to start my flower run. So it ended to be about 350 grams of megacrop to do that. So I did that, foliar fed them a kelp and fulvic spray, flooded my pots and then I dip out a few gallons out of my res. added 5ml of the Raw bloom microbes to the 3 gallons and topped off all my pots with that mix. Ok. Then I thought I was done then came online and seen your post above. Ok so I got freaked out and topped of my rez with 5 more gallons of water to bring the ppm's down since I was scared about over doing it. Then I added 25 grams of epsom salt that same night before the next feeding. I only added the 25 grams so I didnt add too much. I enede up being back at 700ppm's. I dont really have a talent for math/clue with figuring the ratio's out I have always just gone by the H&G feed chart added some things that I thought would help and went for it. I have always understood they like some nitrogen less phosphorous and more potassium. Ok good enough, but it can be better. Im trying to have a better balanced nutrient ratio mix. Adding stuff and getting my nutrients out of balance is my main problem I do believe. So you posted this talking about your mixers 2:1:3 RATIO NPK +/- depending on my mood and stage. 2/1/3/ ok sound reasonable to me.
So I went to the mega website https://greenleafnutrients.com/feeding-chart/?v=7516fd43adaa and using the normal feeding chart section there I added 55 gallons and if you do this it says that in late flower I should be only adding 330 grams. Uhhhhh ok? Idk? Seems strange to me.
Then if you go to the ppm calculator I get this. 55 gallons 350 grams.
Element PPM calculation
Total Nitrogen (N)
168.1103
Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
161.3779
Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
6.7246
Phosphorous (P)
40.3488
Potassium (K)
202.3413
Magnesium (Mg)
31.9404
Calcium (Ca)
109.2696
Sulfur (S)
18.4920
Iron (Fe)
1.3451
Zinc (Zn)
1.8489
Boron (B)
1.3451
Manganese (Mn)
1.3451
Copper (Cu)
0.8405
Molybdenum (Mo)
0.1680
Silicon (Si)
1.6810
Total PPM 579.0903
I ended up about 700 ppm;s with what I did, like I said I wanted to be at 700 to start (500 scale) I had about 50 ppm's in my water to start. So add the two together and its 629 my nutrient monitor says 710 ok close enough, were good. (Im ok with the difference in ppm's as my ppm probe may need to have an adjustment. Not worrying about that right now.)
So am I out of balance, where did I screw up?
So if you use the mega feeding calculator why does one say Im maxed out for late bloom at 330 grams, I added 350, and I only had 700 ppm's. Come week five I want to be about 1300 ppm's and that looks like this. And that is 800 grams of megacrop. My gut tells me I want / need less nitrogen for this flowering stage.
55 gallons 800 grams.
Element PPM calculation
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522
Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638
Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704
Phosphorous (P)
92.2258
Potassium (K)
462.4945
Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066
Calcium (Ca)
249.7590
Sulfur (S)
42.2674
Iron (Fe)
3.0744
Zinc (Zn)
4.2261
Boron (B)
3.0744
Manganese (Mn)
3.0744
Copper (Cu)
1.9211
Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839
Silicon (Si)
3.8422
Total PPM 1323.6349
I have always fed by ppm's as an indicator of where I needed to be for the plant size and stage of plant growth. Not to be confused with the ratio, I understand the plant wants a certain proper balanced nutrition. I just haven't been exact with that, with my adding this adding that laziness. Thats what I want to dial in. With these nutes it sounds like I dont need to add anything but then again I want to be sure I'm doing it right as I never used dry nutes on this level before.
You know where I'm screwing up??
TIA
im4satori
Well-Known Member
ok so heres whats confusing you
theres "active elemental ppm" which would be what youd see if you got a lab test of your source water
it would show you the exact amount of each element in the water
that's a true ppm reading
then theres your ppm meter... it doesn't read true active elemental ppm.... its meant to be used as a bench mark so you can see the changes that are happening in salinity over a given period of time... the meter doesn't actuall read real PPM as in elements
a ppm meter reads EC which is electrical conductivity and coverts the EC to ppm by math conversion using a factor of either 0.7 or 0.5 conversion rate depending on your meter brand
what that means is you cant compare your ppm meter to someone elses unless you know there meter has the same conversion
if I have a ppm meter at 0.5 conversion and yours is 0.7 then they'll read two different things in the same sdolution
so when your ppm meter breaks as they always eventually do... don't buy a ppm meter! buy and EC meter
EC is universal and should be the same no matter the brand, for that reason I don't speak of ppm in reference to your meter...if im referring to the meter I only use EC and only speak in terms of EC otherwise who knows
if I refer to ppm its in reference to elemental ppm and not the results on your meter
so when you lay out the math results for your fertilizer based on the nute calculator... that's not going to jive with your ppm meter
im4satori
Well-Known Member
ok having said all that
now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp
without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement
in order to get the N down you could use less mega and add in mkp and that would fix your ratio but youll end up with to little iron if its reduced (according to the numbers you posted)
iron would need to be at least 1.3ppm or your bound to see def
ideally it would be more like 2.0ppm but you can squeak by with less
if you happen to have iron water as a source water then you might be ok
or
you could get a cheap iron supplement from ebay but it might be more trouble than its worth vs just using something else for bloom or whatever
if you want to get an iron supplement and proceed let me know and I will help you figure out the mix
there is plenty of all the other micro elements to make it work but for whatever reason the iron is low to begin with
now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp
without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement
in order to get the N down you could use less mega and add in mkp and that would fix your ratio but youll end up with to little iron if its reduced (according to the numbers you posted)
iron would need to be at least 1.3ppm or your bound to see def
ideally it would be more like 2.0ppm but you can squeak by with less
if you happen to have iron water as a source water then you might be ok
or
you could get a cheap iron supplement from ebay but it might be more trouble than its worth vs just using something else for bloom or whatever
if you want to get an iron supplement and proceed let me know and I will help you figure out the mix
there is plenty of all the other micro elements to make it work but for whatever reason the iron is low to begin with
im4satori
Well-Known Member
here is what I shoot for
but keep in mind theres more than one ratio that can work
this is just what I prefer over the other options (bloom)
NPK 2:1:3
K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1
example
N 100 (can be slightly higher + /-20ppm or lowered in late bloom to 80ppm stage dependent)
P 50 (+/-) (wide range of ppm permitted)
K 150 (lower if using coco)
Ca 100 (depending on whats in source water)
Mg 50 (not under 40)
usually anything close to that plus or minus 10ppm to 20ppm (depending) of any element still keeps you in the ball aprk
but keep in mind theres more than one ratio that can work
this is just what I prefer over the other options (bloom)
NPK 2:1:3
K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1
example
N 100 (can be slightly higher + /-20ppm or lowered in late bloom to 80ppm stage dependent)
P 50 (+/-) (wide range of ppm permitted)
K 150 (lower if using coco)
Ca 100 (depending on whats in source water)
Mg 50 (not under 40)
usually anything close to that plus or minus 10ppm to 20ppm (depending) of any element still keeps you in the ball aprk
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
mega crop is a 10/6/14 is that the same as your 2/1/3? Am I always stuck at 5 grams a gallon max if I give it more will I be out of ratio to achieve a higher ppm? Do I not want a higher ppm? I guess I dont understand about how much to give it. With H&G I just poured out more and went by ppm. Small plants 450-500ppm late veg about 650 then flower and I was thinking I was going to be able to push them to 1300-1400
You posted this
mega crop 5 grams per gallon
N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm
so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it
But I went by ppm but i still only added 5 grams a gallon and it came out to 700 ppm's here using the 5oo scale. I guess I don't know how to use these nutrients.
So I bought a bag of megacrop and I want to flower in a hydro system using 45-50 gallons of ro water in and ebb and flow with hydroton, now what do I do again? That's what I don't know.
You posted this
mega crop 5 grams per gallon
N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm
so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it
But I went by ppm but i still only added 5 grams a gallon and it came out to 700 ppm's here using the 5oo scale. I guess I don't know how to use these nutrients.
So I bought a bag of megacrop and I want to flower in a hydro system using 45-50 gallons of ro water in and ebb and flow with hydroton, now what do I do again? That's what I don't know.
im4satori
Well-Known Member
ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good!
full strength veg mix would be
5 grams mega
1 grams Epsom (1/4 tsp)
that's how youd mix it for veg
id find something else to use for bloom that has less N
as for the 2/1/3
that's ratios describiing the npk amounts
100 N
50 P
150 K
that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150
these numbers are a conversion of the % amounts listed on the bag
read my previous posts again becuae I feel like you may not have retained it all
the way the industry has these things set up is confusing and really makes little sense except to keep people confused
ppm meters shouldn't be called ppm meters or should be eliminated from the market all together because it confuses the conversation
im4satori
Well-Known Member
imho
there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max
in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0
seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6
so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm
keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me
just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding...
there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max
in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0
seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6
so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm
keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me
just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding...
Last edited:
bird mcbride
Well-Known Member
In my Flood and Drain Hydro tables I use 1/6 of what is recommended per gallon of water for outdoor grows.
The fertilizer preferred by Kush growers in the nineties was Eco Bloom A&B. Someone said they've changed the A since, but I don't know for sure.
I scale the fertilizer with weigh scales because it can get heavier per volume over time if it gets a bit warm but it can still be used.
The fertilizer preferred by Kush growers in the nineties was Eco Bloom A&B. Someone said they've changed the A since, but I don't know for sure.
I scale the fertilizer with weigh scales because it can get heavier per volume over time if it gets a bit warm but it can still be used.
southernguy99
Well-Known Member
imho
there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max
in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0
seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6
so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm
keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me
just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding...
I agree fully with this . less is more with all this new hybrid stuff etc. I have some old genetic from like 20 years ago that will eat EC2.0 for the fun of it, other then that I haven't really seen anything that takes of 1.4 -1.5 . in fact I have a one here now from a notable breeder its max is 1.2 EC
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
None of what you posted above I was confused about. I already understand what my ppm meter reads and how it works. You have posted actual individual ppm amounts for each elements in the past. So I assumed you have knowledge of these products or work in a lab and have run these products at work to break down each individual element, something like that idk. Or are you using the megacrop website when you talk about the 5 grams per gallon and whats in it using their product?
Ok I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to help I understand how frustrating it is trying to help people that dont know or understand what they need to know. And I do appreciate the time your putting in. I do know that if I cant understand this with how your trying to teach me you will bail and that's cool.
I suppose im trying to do this without learning any math. What he goal is to feed my plants a proper balanced nutrient diet or or something close to it, or at least better than what i have been doing. Im like the guy in the taken movie I have developed a certain set of skills of getting deficiencies and correcting them or not correcting them. Im not to worried about an iron deficiency, hell I would be happy if thats all I got.
Like I said I have only used H&G nutrients. (im just going to throw random numbers out there to make my point>) 300ml to 50 gallons of water gets me 800 ppm then if I add more nutes I get more ppm's. Its what their feed chart says to do. And when I do that I know Im still good. Is that the case with the megacrop/dry nutes can I add more grams to the same amount of water and the ppms will go up and will I still be good-- as far as the ratio or the amounts of each element in the res. but dont focus on me saying elements Im will be just going by ppm's with my meter to judge what / how much im feeding it. I read you dont like to feed hot but I have fed hot, this hot with H&G and didnt burn my plants (strain specific some strains you might) Down below in this post. Thats the wrong thing to do to much nitrogen. but Dont focus on me saying nitrogen I am going by ppm's all the other numbers come up to. I cant do it like that?
so yeah this post is getting out of hand even for myself its taking too long and I have more posting to do with what you said earlier to post about. I think I have a solution but I will post that later on how I think we can agree that this needs to be done but I wanted to just use the megacrop and the megacrop alone from start to finish or megacrop and some other stuff to tweek it, tweek it in the right direction for what I want to acheive.
55 gallons 800 grams.
Element PPM calculation
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522
Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638
Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704
Phosphorous (P)
92.2258
Potassium (K)
462.4945
Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066
Calcium (Ca)
249.7590
Sulfur (S)
42.2674
Iron (Fe)
3.0744
Zinc (Zn)
4.2261
Boron (B)
3.0744
Manganese (Mn)
3.0744
Copper (Cu)
1.9211
Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839
Silicon (Si)
3.8422
Total PPM 1323.6349
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good! OK cool I havent fugged it up yet but I'm at week one of flower and according to the megacrop website and your thoughts about feeding i'm at week 5-6 of flower as far as the strength of my nutient solution.
as for the 2/1/3
that's ratios describiing the npk amounts
100 N
50 P
150 K
that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150
This and how you posting this is whats confusing me I think isnt the npk ratio described as being 2% nitrogen by weight will be in that nutrient mix same for the others so if I had a ten pound bag of 2/1/3 then 2 pounds of it will be nitrogen same for the other elements. or do I have that wrong?
megacrop is a 10/6/14 so in that lingo that looks 500/300/700 so is that a 5/3/7.
chem-grow is a 4/20/39 is that the same as a 1/4/9.75
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
imho
there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max
in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0
seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6
so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm
keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me
just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding...
there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max
If I go that low I will get deficiencies in flower or do I have deficiencies in flower because my plant haven't stored enough of the elements to make it through flower because I have my nutrient ratio's wrong in veg all the time then it goes to flower and it doesnt have enough of the right stuff stored to be able to perform in flower?: or something like that.
small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0
seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6
so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
Ok cool you converted it to the 500 scale for me thanks. What you said here is what I do but that ec of 1.4 is late veg for me then I want to do this
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
Probably not that hot but lets say I want to go up to 1500 ppm's (500 scale again)
Im either not feeding it right in veg with the proper nutrient ratio God know that the H&G doesnt have shit for nitrogen in it and I haven't been supplementing a lot of extra nitrogen (trying to correct that problem) but I dont see a lot of nitrogen deficiencies but I do get mag and potassium deficiencies a lot. But we dont need to focus on the past we need to focus on the future and do it right.
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp
what you said here is what I wanted to do.
without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement
I hear you but I thought I would be able to do something wit hit I want a cheaper nutrient to use and just one nutrient line maybe with just a couple of extra things to tweek it. So basically the megacrop has to much nitrogen in it for a flower nute so I add mpk but Ill get an iron deficeincy. I dont think I want an iron deficiency id rather have something easy like a mag deficiency. I do have shitty rusty looking water sometimes. idk
Bernie420
Well-Known Member
Ok that was brutal wasnt it.
So I have the megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and the chem-gro 4/20/39 and all of the extras for the chem-gro ca,mpk epsom salt.
so how do I make all that work. I cant flower with the megacrop? I use megacrop through week two of flower then switch to the chem-gro and cut the calcium nitrate in half or something like that from what they posted as a feed schedule. Still need to get some calcium in there.
I understand more nitrogen in veg less in flower etc etc etc. i get all that I just dont understand how the dry nutes scale up to be at 12-1500 ppm's in late flower or its just staring me in the face and I dont realize something. I was thinking run the megacrop hit it with some mpk in mid flower and im in the zone. I guess I cant do that or it isnt as easy as that. Im trying to keep things in balance with a proper nutrient ratio but I dont know what the actual pp'ms are for each element and can only go by total ppm.s for the entire reservoir. Basically im back to guessing again with these dry nutes, winging it in a different way like I was winging it before. But dont read into that too much not exactly guessing or winging it I want to be more exact and on point and not get by with close enough. And not spend so much money at a hydro store.
I think mega in veg then chem-gro in flower and just keep it simple like that.
So I have the megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and the chem-gro 4/20/39 and all of the extras for the chem-gro ca,mpk epsom salt.
so how do I make all that work. I cant flower with the megacrop? I use megacrop through week two of flower then switch to the chem-gro and cut the calcium nitrate in half or something like that from what they posted as a feed schedule. Still need to get some calcium in there.
I understand more nitrogen in veg less in flower etc etc etc. i get all that I just dont understand how the dry nutes scale up to be at 12-1500 ppm's in late flower or its just staring me in the face and I dont realize something. I was thinking run the megacrop hit it with some mpk in mid flower and im in the zone. I guess I cant do that or it isnt as easy as that. Im trying to keep things in balance with a proper nutrient ratio but I dont know what the actual pp'ms are for each element and can only go by total ppm.s for the entire reservoir. Basically im back to guessing again with these dry nutes, winging it in a different way like I was winging it before. But dont read into that too much not exactly guessing or winging it I want to be more exact and on point and not get by with close enough. And not spend so much money at a hydro store.
I think mega in veg then chem-gro in flower and just keep it simple like that.