Cap and Trade
- Thread starter beardo
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Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
For your information most of the states you listed were forms of violent communism, more leaning toward leninism and capitalist hybrid systems. Marx divorced himself from the doctrine described as Marxism, instead actually reading his writings may lead you toward an informed opinion.
All those systems embraced a head of state, where as pure communism, just as the name suggest, is a universal community where by all parties are seen equally, if not then all is seen as a part of you. It kind of parallels solipsism and borders the information incepted by quantum theory advocates.
Peace
All those systems embraced a head of state, where as pure communism, just as the name suggest, is a universal community where by all parties are seen equally, if not then all is seen as a part of you. It kind of parallels solipsism and borders the information incepted by quantum theory advocates.
Peace
Countryfarmer
Active Member
Lol Doc. Yep, no more derailing for me. It is obvious ol' Kush is a lost cause and can not even be honest enough to admit that every single attempt at communistic rule has ended in misery for the populace upon which it was imposed. I'd be wasting the calories spent in typing to even try to reason with him.
Sorry for participating in the derail. I'll stick to any comments on cap and trade.
Sorry for participating in the derail. I'll stick to any comments on cap and trade.
Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
Hey I am not forcing anything into you.... but by all means, keep on spinning that hamster wheel.
Peace
Peace
doc111
Well-Known Member
No worries. Kush is obviously extremely intelligent. I disagree with him on communism as well and I tend to agree with you. No system of govt. is perfect but minimal govt. should be the goal IMO. Communism sounds great on paper but is anything but in practice. I long for a day where govt. won't be needed at all (that is a LONG way off though).
Countryfarmer
Active Member
Yes, minimal government should be the goal. Unfortunately with the advent of the modern presidency, as well as our massive government entitlement programs, the US has long since moved away from minimal government to statism/authoritianism and a tremendous centralization of power in DC.
abe23
Active Member
I agree that the overall goal needs to be to have the leanest, most efficient government possible and that keeps it's hands away from whatever can be done by the private sector. The question is always what those things are. You guys may be very suspicious of government and rightly so, but I'm just as suspicious (if not more) of big private business, like BP for example.
So basically, I agree with the limited government mantra, but only to a certain point. That whole idea has become so loaded ideologically. It's not about the practical anymore. "the government can't do anything right" maxim is just as ideologically based as the communist manifesto, mein kampf and the little red book....
So basically, I agree with the limited government mantra, but only to a certain point. That whole idea has become so loaded ideologically. It's not about the practical anymore. "the government can't do anything right" maxim is just as ideologically based as the communist manifesto, mein kampf and the little red book....
doc111
Well-Known Member
I hope this is hyperbole. I wouldn't say the govt. can't do anything right but they can't do much right. We need govt. but IMHO the govt. shouldn't be as intrusive as the U.S. govt. has become. Personal responsibility seems to be as endangered as the California Condor. By all means, let's help those who need it, not those who just want an easy life. I fail to see how you can compare communism to libertarianism.
Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
I believe the problem is currency. It traps people in the rat race, as well as government. All of the ideologies are flawed, because you can class corporatism, neo con, neo lib, fascism, ect. all in one group. Ultimately there is only people and the false belief of control it what keeps us at bay. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Governments job should be "...to facilitate the search for truth." Through means of science, pursuit of happiness, and philosophy. On top of that, the fact that the senses you know and love can only be proven by you to be nothing but a mind trick. Even scientific evidence is ultimately flawed because it doesn't exist as experiential/mental data.
I would not call myself a communist, although I do subscribe to the theory of proletariat rise. I would prefer to think of myself as an cynical-utopianist. Because all governments are controlled by money, and can't create money without driving the economy into the ground so they borrow at interest from private corporation that get "Too big too fail", and when they are on the verge of collapse, the people borrow more money from the private corps. at interest and give it back to them for free, to keep them doing what they are doing.
The theory that was propounded that turned into the fiat currency system was mathematically proven to come to an end every time. Because the earth is finite and we grow like a mold that eventually has to eat itself in order to survive. It ends up working, but there are limiting factors. I believe instead we should see ourselves as part of the same inseparable system, I have used this analogy before, but it is just so perfect, like a watch. Gears and dials are all run from the same source of power and knowledge, the very complex set of actions keep the clock ticking, and the gears spinning.
As technology increases in power, more people will be laid off as the incentive to pay people becomes less and less advantageous. Eventually people will stop having money to spend, and will revert to botched anarchy. More stores will close, leaving more people hungry and dependent. Which will lead to a fascist or authoritarian government implementing itself in power. Unless we use many, many self sustaining small rural or communal governments. Regulate their own law, and each being given access to the wealth of the land and the people.
Education, housing, water, power, food, space(both inner and outer). Its all available, and all growing in both understand and supply, although money is the lead and ultimately will lead to its own demise.
Peace
I would not call myself a communist, although I do subscribe to the theory of proletariat rise. I would prefer to think of myself as an cynical-utopianist. Because all governments are controlled by money, and can't create money without driving the economy into the ground so they borrow at interest from private corporation that get "Too big too fail", and when they are on the verge of collapse, the people borrow more money from the private corps. at interest and give it back to them for free, to keep them doing what they are doing.
The theory that was propounded that turned into the fiat currency system was mathematically proven to come to an end every time. Because the earth is finite and we grow like a mold that eventually has to eat itself in order to survive. It ends up working, but there are limiting factors. I believe instead we should see ourselves as part of the same inseparable system, I have used this analogy before, but it is just so perfect, like a watch. Gears and dials are all run from the same source of power and knowledge, the very complex set of actions keep the clock ticking, and the gears spinning.
As technology increases in power, more people will be laid off as the incentive to pay people becomes less and less advantageous. Eventually people will stop having money to spend, and will revert to botched anarchy. More stores will close, leaving more people hungry and dependent. Which will lead to a fascist or authoritarian government implementing itself in power. Unless we use many, many self sustaining small rural or communal governments. Regulate their own law, and each being given access to the wealth of the land and the people.
Education, housing, water, power, food, space(both inner and outer). Its all available, and all growing in both understand and supply, although money is the lead and ultimately will lead to its own demise.
Peace
abe23
Active Member
They're both ideologies that assume some sort of understanding of intrinsic human behavior and base they're ideas for a form of government on those. I prefer a more pragmatic approach, where we look at what works and try to replicate it. Letting private markets and polluting industries regulate themselves doesn't seem to work very well.I hope this is hyperbole. I wouldn't say the govt. can't do anything right but they can't do much right. We need govt. but IMHO the govt. shouldn't be as intrusive as the U.S. govt. has become. Personal responsibility seems to be as endangered as the California Condor. By all means, let's help those who need it, not those who just want an easy life. I fail to see how you can compare communism to libertarianism.
But yeah. Cap and trade...
Honestly, a huge part of our problem is that our energy is so cheap thanks to hidden subsidies and costs that we keep kicking down the road. I would be all for raising the cost of energy across the bord in order to encourage efficiency. If taxes is the best way to do that, I'm all for it. Because the reality is that even if you don't buy into the greenhouse effect, our approach to energy is unsustainable and is also destroying the environment. Let's tax the shit out of coal and gasoline and use the money to build nuclear plants, wind, solar, natural gas or whatever is best....