Cheap and Cheerful DIY using Citizen cobs

JorgeGonzales said:

Thanks Will, glad you liked it.

Do you know if Marl ships outside of England?

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The system Citizen has implemented harkens back to the good old days of regional DVDs. It is archaic to say the least. Companies must be a regional distributor for Citizen. This was a decision from high up the food chain at Citizen. You can direct your scorn to the global sales and marketing executive. Here is his picture.



Marl has a branch in the USA but looking at that site they may not have distributor rights there. http://www.marlusa.com/
Last time I spoke with the Rep in the UK. He had 79 x CLU048-1212C4- 303H5k2 in stock. I bet for a large order there will be price breaks.
If enough folks are interested and have a "safe" address to send them to I will be happy to purchase a job lot and forward them on.

Cheers,
Will

Growmau5 said:

@JorgeGonzales awesome thread, amazing clean simple light! its very cool to see you break the Vero / Cree mold. I was actually going to PM you last night and ask if you could find the time to do a little write up on Citizen's offerings. I know there is a lot of discussion about them in the "COBs other than cree thread" Since you are pretty well informed about them, do you think you could do a post with a little rundown on their offerings, what the product codes mean, binning etc.

cheers man.

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i think my cob du jour is the next size up, the 1825

$43

@5000K 70CRI:
>160 lm/W @140W
>170 lm/W @ 85W
>190 lm/W @ 50W
hard to beat those numbers. got the 3590DB by the balls at high power

BOBBY_G said:

i think my cob du jour is the next size up, the 1825

$43

@5000K 70CRI:
>160 lm/W @140W
>170 lm/W @ 85W
>190 lm/W @ 50W
hard to beat those numbers. got the 3590DB by the balls at high power

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CLU058 looks extremely promising. Beating CXB3590 from 50W up at any CCT or CRI.

just orderd 5000k 70 and 80 CRI, and 2700k 90CRI and will test it next to the 3590s. seems that the 1825 edges the 3618 in our range. the 1825 goes out to 300W and beyond at 130 lm/W. thats a lot of chip for $43!!!!!!!! if there ever was an hps killer.....

i wish CDI had more color choices. if its as good as the spec sheet looks maybe we can mob them and get them to stock more.

BOBBY_G said:

i think my cob du jour is the next size up, the 1825

$43

@5000K 70CRI:
>160 lm/W @140W
>170 lm/W @ 85W
>190 lm/W @ 50W
hard to beat those numbers. got the 3590DB by the balls at high power

Click to expand...

Yeah I mentioned that in the "other cobs" thread I think. Even at 3500k 80 CRI and Tj=65C the 1825 stays above 160lm/W at 100W.

On paper, the Crees are dust at high wattages, and the 1212 and 1825 are definitely the sweet spots for cost or high watt efficiency, respectively, I think the CXB3070 makes more sense under $30 vs the 1818 at low currents.

Cree bins, however, and that still kicks ass. Citizen, Nichia, Bridgelux, they just state typical flux, with a minimum and/or maximum range.

Here is an extreme example from Nichia, from digitized graphs:

NFDLJ130B 3500K CRI 80 Ta=25C
6210 - 7610 lumens @1150ma 39.2 Vf 45.08W 138-169 LPW
3273 - 4010 lumens @545ma 36.2Vf 21.27W 154-189 LPW

If Nichia binned you'd have a CXB3070 killer for $10. This degree of worrying about photons generated is limited to plants, rand crazy flashlight people as far as I can tell, and Cree definitely caters to the, ahem, enthusiasts.

Growmau5 said:

@JorgeGonzales awesome thread, amazing clean simple light! its very cool to see you break the Vero / Cree mold. I was actually going to PM you last night and ask if you could find the time to do a little write up on Citizen's offerings. I know there is a lot of discussion about them in the "COBs other than cree thread" Since you are pretty well informed about them, do you think you could do a post with a little rundown on their offerings, what the product codes mean, binning etc.

cheers man.

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Thank you my friend.

I can try to write something up, although now that you opened that can of worms with the "subforum changing the world" thread, it shined a glaring, duh moment light on how crippling it is not to be able to edit/curate top posts with the up-to-date information around here. There was no good explanation given, and "just ask a mod" to edit posts, update images, all that crap, is a poor excuse for a solution.

JorgeGonzales said:

Yeah I mentioned that in the "other cobs" thread I think. Even at 3500k 80 CRI and Tj=65C the 1825 stays above 160lm/W at 100W.

On paper, the Crees are dust at high wattages, and the 1212 and 1825 are definitely the sweet spots for cost or high watt efficiency, respectively, I think the CXB3070 makes more sense under $30 vs the 1818 at low currents.

Cree bins, however, and that still kicks ass. Citizen, Nichia, Bridgelux, they just state typical flux, with a minimum and/or maximum range.

Here is an extreme example from Nichia, from digitized graphs:

NFDLJ130B 3500K CRI 80 Ta=25C
6210 - 7610 lumens @1150ma 39.2 Vf 45.08W 138-169 LPW
3273 - 4010 lumens @545ma 36.2Vf 21.27W 154-189 LPW

If Nichia binned you'd have a CXB3070 killer for $10. This degree of worrying about photons generated is limited to plants, rand crazy flashlight people as far as I can tell, and Cree definitely caters to the, ahem, enthusiasts..

Click to expand...

Nichia does bin. Look at the "rank". But just like anything...there is a premium to getting top binned chips.


Nichia makes the best white leds. Once one has used them, it's hard to compete. They have just been pretty poor in efficiency/efficacy in cobs. Single die they have been holding strong, and I know they do focus on mid power applications, so if they wanted, they could do anything anyone else can. When I played with them, they were extremely fragile, literally like egg shells, that was my other issue.
Would love to see a nicha come back.


Nice build by the way.

Greengenes707 said:

Nichia does bin. Look at the "rank". But just like anything...there is a premium to getting top binned chips.
View attachment 3684888

Nichia makes the best white leds. Once one has used them, it's hard to compete. They have just been pretty poor in efficiency/efficacy in cobs. Single die they have been holding strong, and I know they do focus on mid power applications, so if they wanted, they could do anything anyone else can. When I played with them, they were extremely fragile, literally like egg shells, that was my other issue.
Would love to see a nicha come back.

Nice build by the way.

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Yeah, it seems like if they built bigger the numbers would get very good very fast.

I did look at the rank, but I might have misunderstood, isn't it determined by temperature and CRI for their white leds?

i just ordered the 3000k

OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:

i just ordered the 3000k

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You are crazy, in a good way.

at 14$ canadian a cob and 7.50 $ delivery i can handle it..
thanks for the progressive adventurous thread

JorgeGonzales said:

I did look at the rank, but I might have misunderstood, isn't it determined by temperature and CRI for their white leds?

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So is Cree. Certain CCT's are only capable of testing into certain bins...CD for 3500K and DD for 5000K with 3590's.

The second chart you posted is all the ranks/bins ranges. Meaning if an led test into that range...it is that bin. That doesn't mean it exist for everything. Just that if something were to test into that range, it would be that bin.

The first chart you posted is what rank each CCT can test into. Just like with cree or anyone, high cct(less phosphor) will allow more light through and then test into a higher rank/bin. And for whatever one you have there...seems to just show one rank(NFDLJ130B-v1).
If you look at the newer M3 for the same chip it has a little more detail on bins, like how when I used to get the 219's.
https://www.nichia.co.jp/specification/products/led/NFDLJ130B-M3-E.pdf


Nichia is great, but it is best to work with one of their guys in person to get the specs and info easier than online. Or spend hours upon hours going through and calculating all the options.

This is a great thread @JorgeGonzales
I have a general cob question and a lot of those in the know are in your thread so hopefully I can ask it here:
Where are all of these cobs being produced seeing usage besides grow lights? Are they starting to show up in large numbers in consumer / commercial products?

Greengenes707 said:

So is Cree. Certain CCT's are only capable of testing into certain bins...CD for 3500K and DD for 5000K with 3590's.

The second chart you posted is all the ranks/bins ranges. Meaning if an led test into that range...it is that bin. That doesn't mean it exist for everything. Just that if something were to test into that range, it would be that bin.

The first chart you posted is what rank each CCT can test into. Just like with cree or anyone, high cct(less phosphor) will allow more light through and then test into a higher rank/bin. And for whatever one you have there...seems to just show one rank(NFDLJ130B-v1).
If you look at the newer M3 for the same chip it has a little more detail on bins, like how when I used to get the 219's.
https://www.nichia.co.jp/specification/products/led/NFDLJ130B-M3-E.pdf
View attachment 3684947

Nichia is great, but it is best to work with one of their guys in person to get the specs and info easier than online. Or spend hours upon hours going through and calculating all the options.

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OK, so I did understand those charts, but there may be more bins potentially for sale than listed. Nichia lists the V1 as "new product", so maybe as manufacturing improves more bins become available? That would make sense.

I can only mirror your advice about talking to somebody. A proper sales rep/engineer prevented a couple of missteps on my end with this build. I like phones, email can be rough.

I don't think the M3 is a newer version of the same chip, btw. It's less lm/W and doesn't cross reference the CRI in it's rank charts...also what in the hell is the M3 version? I think it doesn't list CRI because it's not a traditional spectrum. I was wondering why it's so inefficient, then I looked at the SPD:


That is...unusual. Is this an RGB cob?

OneHitDone said:

This is a great thread @JorgeGonzales
I have a general cob question and a lot of those in the know are in your thread so hopefully I can ask it here:
Where are all of these cobs being produced seeing usage besides grow lights? Are they starting to show up in large numbers in consumer / commercial products?

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Street lamp, warehouse, factory, and retail lighting. Vero has a bread and bakery line!

Quick update on the real star of this build, my vintage 60s DYMO labeler I scored for $7 in the box on eBay.

Labeling the switch was my favorite part. Also, self-fusing tape, which I used to wrap the contacts, is really great stuff. Heat shrink looks neater, but can't seal garden hoses or water pipes...wait did I just invent heat shrink plumbing repair? One million dollars, here I come.

The M3 has a "N" for new product. The plain v1 doesn't. I call it how I see them. It's the same chips/size/platform. The point was that in most data sheets nichia does off and show more than one bin per cct.

All things have a CRI, regardless of spectrum makeup. Phillips has some spectrums like that, as well as double blue peaking white. It's just more yellow phosphors in the mix I'm pretty sure. Vision lighting for sure there...think ray ban G15 lens. But again interesting that certain sheets have certain info. I only dealt with nichia on my own for a short while, but I learned quickly to deal with them in person to get what you need.

Have fun, you got a nice light. I don't want to chatter up the thread. Turn the light into a grow light and I'll be watching.

NICE LIGHT!!! I like those holders, wish I would have known before I ordered the ideals.... I got the 1212's in 4000k, planning to run them at 1400mA on the same sinks, will be interesting to see how they handle it. Nice design, gave me some ideas how to proceed.

JorgeGonzales said:

That is...unusual. Is this an RGB cob?

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that SPD is generated by two different phosphors...High CRI, the NICHIA Way

and here we have deep red generated by Quantum Dots...

Greengenes707 said:

The M3 has a "N" for new product. The plain v1 doesn't. I call it how I see them. It's the same chips/size/platform. The point was that in most data sheets nichia does off and show more than one bin per cct.

All things have a CRI, regardless of spectrum makeup. Phillips has some spectrums like that, as well as double blue peaking white. It's just more yellow phosphors in the mix I'm pretty sure. Vision lighting for sure there...think ray ban G15 lens. But again interesting that certain sheets have certain info. I only dealt with nichia on my own for a short while, but I learned quickly to deal with them in person to get what you need.

Have fun, you got a nice light. I don't want to chatter up the thread. Turn the light into a grow light and I'll be watching.

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They probably didn't list the CRI because it was specialty lighting, was all i was saying. I trust you completely on the binning.

I don't mind the clutter one bit, I know you are just calling it how you see it, but I'm just trying to figure out what you are looking at. @OLD MOTHER SATIVA just ordered the V1, so it's certainly of interest. What I was looking at was this page:

http://www.nichia.co.jp/en/product/led_search.html?op=cond=application='General Lighting'




I doubt I'll start any kind of grow journal, out of pure laziness, but I'll certainly update if my plants die, or I run into the 4000k deadzone you saw during veg. Retired hortilux hps is my last benchmark. I switched my aquarium over half a decade ago.

I'm debating putting my money where my mouth is and supplementing with red monos to get a more solar-like mix, with maybe 15% blue, and equal RB for a final mix. I'm not into microtweaking or radish studies, but I really think the sunlike is where it's at. Without so much far red, lets not get carried away.

I've seem first hand problems with tomatoes without UV, for example, and weird herbs turn purple with too much blue light under very cool leds from screw bulbs. Weed under my now retired HPS is fine, but gut says cheap efficient broad spectrum from cobs with tweaks from extra color is the way.

Probably should have planned that way from the beginning, but I am only human.

Anyway.

thetr33man said:

NICE LIGHT!!! I like those holders, wish I would have known before I ordered the ideals.... I got the 1212's in 4000k, planning to run them at 1400mA on the same sinks, will be interesting to see how they handle it. Nice design, gave me some ideas how to proceed.

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Man, I don't know about all the people who are like oh my heatsink is cool to the touch and all that, but I measured a hair under 50C at my anode, however accurate that is for case temps, the light interfered with the thermocouple quite a bit.

And all warmed up these radial sinks are about 42C top to bottom checking with my infrared thermometer, and that's the more efficient 1818 at about 36W.

So. I think 50W may be pretty damned hot. Not even close to damage an LED hot, but spicy. Luckily for you heatsinks get better at their jobs the hotter cobs get, so it won't be as big a rise as you might expect.