Could use some help to pin this problem down

helis · Jun 14, 2017

Run down...

2 plants under 250w HPS in coco.
I'm feeding Flairform Bloom(4ml/L) and Flairform CMX (0.5mls/L) and every second watering is just plain pH'd water.

So based on my feeding I don't see how it could be nute burn as I'm on the lower end of both additives and then i'm only feeding them every second watering.

Photos show there are parts which appear nice and healthy and others which are looking bad. I had an aphid problem 2 weeks ago but I manually removed them over 5 days. I have not seen anything on them for a week now. Infestation wasn't too bad when i stopped it.

I was thinking light burn possibly but the worst affected colas which are in the direct light are still 25cm's from the light bulb at a minimum.

Also this plant is exactly 4 weeks into flower.

Any help would be great

helis · Jun 15, 2017

Bump just in case someone knows whats happening to my little buddies.

Bugeye · Jun 15, 2017

Looks like broad mite damage. Not sure I know a good broad mite treatment for flowering. Maybe Hotshot pest strip (slow release dichlorvos) but not sure if it treats broad mites?

helis · Jun 15, 2017

Bugeye said:
Looks like broad mite damage. Not sure I know a good broad mite treatment for flowering. Maybe Hotshot pest strip (slow release dichlorvos) but not sure if it treats broad mites?

Would they be visible on the plant? Besides the aphids I killed off a couple of weeks ago i've not seen anything moving or out of place.

OldMedUser · Jun 15, 2017

I highly doubt it's broad mites but that seems to be the flavour of the month and will be until a new flavour shows up.

Pretty sure what you have there is low S. Nothing a good dose of Epsom salts can't fix. Dirt cheap at your local drug store too. Sulfur is easily available to the plants at a wide pH range from 5.5 and all the way up past 8 so unless your pH is 5 or so the plant can get it if it's there. A couple of tsps per gallon with your next watering should turn them around in a few days. You could foliar spray some but best not to in flower and it'll only speed it up by maybe a day so why bother.

I'll post this decent deficiency chart for you and check out the symptoms for S deficiency. I've had it myself and the Epsom salts did the trick.

Good luck!

Bugeye · Jun 15, 2017

helis said:
Would they be visible on the plant? Besides the aphids I killed off a couple of weeks ago i've not seen anything moving or out of place.

They are not visible to the naked eye, very tiny. Only their damage is visible. The leaf fingers that pull hard to one side are a sign of their work. If your plant has been putting out that particular mutation since the beginning then it is not such a strong sign.

helis · Jun 15, 2017

Bugeye said:
They are not visible to the naked eye, very tiny. Only their damage is visible. The leaf fingers that pull hard to one side are a sign of their work. If your plant has been putting out that particular mutation since the beginning then it is not such a strong sign.

sorry yeah should have mentioned. The mutation is because both of these clones got into a 12/12 rotation for a week and than ended up back in beg for a month. They have been producing weird leafs since. All new growth is back to normal now since its been in flowering for 4 weeks.

I just got some epsom salts. if that doesn't work these babies may end up getting the chop but i'm not giving up just yet

helis · Jun 15, 2017

OldMedUser said:
I highly doubt it's broad mites but that seems to be the flavour of the month and will be until a new flavour shows up.

Pretty sure what you have there is low S. Nothing a good dose of Epsom salts can't fix. Dirt cheap at your local drug store too. Sulfur is easily available to the plants at a wide pH range from 5.5 and all the way up past 8 so unless your pH is 5 or so the plant can get it if it's there. A couple of tsps per gallon with your next watering should turn them around in a few days. You could foliar spray some but best not to in flower and it'll only speed it up by maybe a day so why bother.

I'll post this decent deficiency chart for you and check out the symptoms for S deficiency. I've had it myself and the Epsom salts did the trick.

View attachment 3961771

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply and image. You have given me hope! I shot down to the supermarket now and got some epsom salts. fingers crossed!

OldMedUser · Jun 16, 2017

helis said:
sorry yeah should have mentioned. The mutation is because both of these clones got into a 12/12 rotation for a week and than ended up back in beg for a month. They have been producing weird leafs since. All new growth is back to normal now since its been in flowering for 4 weeks.

I just got some epsom salts. if that doesn't work these babies may end up getting the chop but i'm not giving up just yet

Never give up, never surrender! (Winston Churchill)

You will hopefully see some greening up but maybe not. At least it shouldn't get worse and your bud growth should improve and end up as good as it ever could have been.

I've been helping a member thru PMs and he just used the Epsom salts to fix an Mg problem and now has weird white spots showing up on his leaves. Too big to ne mite bites and not the right shape and pattern for thrips so I'm thinking it might be Powdery Mildew or some other mildew problem but it doesn't look like PM either. He didn't foliar spray the salts either so it's got me stumped. I told him to post pics in his grow thread and see if someone else might have seen it before. I've been adding epsom for 15 years and never had that happen.

Don't forget to let us know how it goes eh.

Cheers.

jensenbeach1 · Jun 16, 2017

I think you have a lockout it looks like you have a few issues going on micro and macro. Check your runoff if its high try to run light nutes through at good ph maybe less than 1/4 strength, if that.

jensenbeach1 · Jun 16, 2017

You may have a nutrient lockout, check your runoff for ph and ppm. Even though youve been using good ph'd water you could have let excess salts build up by letting the coco dry too much, or adding too much.

im4satori · Jun 16, 2017

I suspect you have been over fertilizing and you have magnesium def or lockout or both

what are the npk % amounts on the two bottles of fertilizer

and tell me the calcium and magnesium % amount for each bottle also

I would water with plain water and 1/2 tsp Epsom salt per gallon1x
until we sort out your fertilizer and only plain water for a bit

give me the % numbers so we can see if your over fertilizing and if you are we can find out what an appropriate amount would be

and we can figure out how much Epsom salt is right for you moving foward

helis · Jun 16, 2017

im4satori said:
I suspect you have been over fertilizing and you have magnesium def or lockout or both

what are the npk % amounts on the two bottles of fertilizer

and tell me the calcium and magnesium % amount for each bottle also

I would water with plain water and 1/2 tsp Epsom salt per gallon1x
until we sort out your fertilizer and only plain water for a bit

give me the % numbers so we can see if your over fertilizing and if you are we can find out what an appropriate amount would be

and we can figure out how much Epsom salt is right for you moving foward

After reading over OldMedUser's chart I picked up on another issue that may be causing all of this and judging from your comment I may have made a big noob mistake.

I've been feeding to the point of slight run off and stopping. So in the last 8-12 weeks of life that these two plants have had almost no run offs at feeding. This is only my second grow but I think not running off excess water each feeding had left a nasty build up of waste in the coco. leading to lock out of a few things and I think I've just been extremely lucky to make it this far with out more going wrong.

Below are the stats for the two products i am using.

Feed 1 is the below two additives. Feed 2 is plain pH'd water. Repeat.

CMX (4-0-0)
They recommend 0.5-1ml/L
I use 0.5ml/L

Green Dream 1 Bloom (2-2-6)
They recommend 4-6ml/L
I use 4ml/L

On top of any advice you have I'm going to be over watering by at least 20% at each feeding now. If this isn't enough let me know.

As of last night I have also given the plants one flush of pH'd water with 2tps/gal of epsom salts. It was a good flush with lots of run off.

jensenbeach1 · Jun 16, 2017

helis said:
After reading over OldMedUser's chart I picked up on another issue that may be causing all of this and judging from your comment I may have made a big noob mistake.

I've been feeding to the point of slight run off and stopping. So in the last 8-12 weeks of life that these two plants have had almost no run offs at feeding. This is only my second grow but I think not running off excess water each feeding had left a nasty build up of waste in the coco. leading to lock out of a few things and I think I've just been extremely lucky to make it this far with out more going wrong.

Below are the stats for the two products i am using.

Feed 1 is the below two additives. Feed 2 is plain pH'd water. Repeat.

CMX (4-0-0)
They recommend 0.5-1ml/L
I use 0.5ml/L
View attachment 3962283

Green Dream 1 Bloom (2-2-6)
They recommend 4-6ml/L
I use 4ml/L
View attachment 3962282

On top of any advice you have I'm going to be over watering by at least 20% at each feeding now. If this isn't enough let me know.

As of last night I have also given the plants one flush of pH'd water with 2tps/gal of epsom salts. It was a good flush with lots of run off.

I was having similar issues, until i switched to Jacks hydroponics super cheap recipe you need extra calcium but a small bucket will last you several grows. Look up lucas formula. Less is more you wont have any of these issues if the nutrient was balanced and the plant is eating it up

OldMedUser · Jun 16, 2017

That's hella strong N there helis.

I'd drop the grow stuff and use some CalMag with the 2nd one as it is low on Mg and Ca compared to the 1st one. I'd find some micro nutrient additive for hydro that isn't 4% N like most Micro bottles in 3 - part nutes to supplement lightly too.

@im4satori has a better grasp of the best %ages to use than I do so I bet he'll nail it down for you.

Almost all nutes need a little tweaking to get them just right and you got room to play a bit.

L8r

im4satori · Jun 16, 2017

first of all

2tsp Epsom salt is way too much

you should have used 1/2 tsp... why did you use soo much????? don't add any more!

just water

next
your experiencing magnesium lock out because your K is super high and a good bit of calcium
and your over fertilizing....
only water with plain phd water until the lower fan leaves show yellowing from N def and then begin feeding again

change the way you mix your nutes

full strength bloom nutes
per gallon.....PER GALLON
3mls cmx
10mls bloom
0.5 grams (1/8 tsp)

full strength veg
4mls cmx
10mls bloom
0.5 grams

its got plenty of calcium in it already so you wont need calmag

always add you measurements like this...NO MORE NO LESS!

if you want a slightly stronger EC/ppm use slightly less water
if you want a slightly weaker EC/ppm use slightly more water

for small sprouts or clones that show hunger use half strength bloom nutes

your fertilizer is very low on P so hopefully your having to ph adjust with phosphoric acid to help add some P

OldMedUser · Jun 16, 2017

That was my bad about the Mg. Must have been having a brain fart.

I never have to worry about most of these percentage things. Just toss my pH Perfect nutes in a jug and dump it in the pots.

im4satori · Jun 16, 2017

OldMedUser said:
That was my bad about the Mg. Must have been having a brain fart. View attachment 3962342

I never have to worry about most of these percentage things. Just toss my pH Perfect nutes in a jug and dump it in the pots.

View attachment 3962343

it happens
ive done it :bigjoint:

I think he should water in again with plain phd water

I took a look at the numbers... 2 tsp epsom is like 8 grams
200ppm magnesium and 264 ppm sulfur and an EC1.4

that's a shit ton

itll be over water maybe but if you don't get some of that Epsom salt rinsed im afraid it might burn you up

flush it again asap

OldMedUser · Jun 16, 2017

Epsom doesn't really burn but adds to the salts overload and can definitely push a plant over if it's already headed towards toxic salts buildup. Crispy leaves starting about week 5 or so.

A one volume flush should get rid of the excess. I hate flushing so sorry about the extra work @helis.

helis · Jun 16, 2017

Wow great info from both of you. first off, thank you for your time so far. This has been a bloody good learning experience and no doubt if my buddies make it through the next 6 weeks it will be very much because of your time and help.

I just purchased some new items to help with feeding and controlling overflow so OldMedUser do not worry I now have a reason to give it all a run through

I'll keep this thread updated on how this all goes. But for now it'll be plain old water for the next week.

Just finished flushing both and thought i'd pH test the run off. 1 gallon of run off from the two pots gave a ph reading of 4.5-5. I flushed with water that had a ph of 6. I'm going to let these girls dry out now and will water/test the run off in 2-3 days.

Thanks again and now I think it might be time to pack my solo and remove a little bit of this stress

Could use some help to pin this problem down

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