Could use some help to pin this problem down

Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Salts are acidic. too much salts drives pH down in medium. domino effect. lockout, deficiencies, nutes are there but cant be accessed due to low ph, and as you feed more, it builds, driving and keeping ph down. Epsom salt watering to roots just added more salts to rootzone.

The way I repair something like this may not be some people's cup of tea but here goes. Reading your posts I assume you dont have ppm/ec meter because what I would say is to mix up a EC 1.0 or around 600-800ppm nutrient solution ph'd at 6 for coco, and run water through the pots until the EC/ppm and ph of the water coming out is the same.

You see, if you flush with clean water what will be left is imbalanced nutrients in the root zone, and then you have other problem. Coco holds on to nutrients in its matrix, you must run balanced nutrient mix through the medium so balance is restored.

For this to not happen again. mix your nutrients lower, only up them if/when you notice overall shade of plant is getting lighter or bottom leaves show signs like yellowing leaves and even then only slightly, dont go doubling nutrient dose suddenly. and always allow for some runoff, not just a drip here n there trickling out. dont allow medium salts to build, and they wont if you dont overfeed and allow for some runoff each watering.

ph 4.5, trying to water with fresh water at 6.5-7.0 or something to bring ph up is useless. Fluish with proper ph and balanced EC 1.0 ppm 600-800 nutrient mix until runoff is a match.

Quickest way and the nutrient usage is not a waste in this situation.

My opinon of course, but I'm a newb whatdoiknow :)

Good luck
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
Salts are acidic. too much salts drives pH down in medium. domino effect. lockout, deficiencies, nutes are there but cant be accessed due to low ph, and as you feed more, it builds, driving and keeping ph down. Epsom salt watering to roots just added more salts to rootzone.

The way I repair something like this may not be some people's cup of tea but here goes. Reading your posts I assume you dont have ppm/ec meter because what I would say is to mix up a EC 1.0 or around 600-800ppm nutrient solution ph'd at 6 for coco, and run water through the pots until the EC/ppm and ph of the water coming out is the same.

You see, if you flush with clean water what will be left is imbalanced nutrients in the root zone, and then you have other problem. Coco holds on to nutrients in its matrix, you must run balanced nutrient mix through the medium so balance is restored.

For this to not happen again. mix your nutrients lower, only up them if/when you notice overall shade of plant is getting lighter or bottom leaves show signs like yellowing leaves and even then only slightly, dont go doubling nutrient dose suddenly. and always allow for some runoff, not just a drip here n there trickling out. dont allow medium salts to build, and they wont if you dont overfeed and allow for some runoff each watering.

ph 4.5, trying to water with fresh water at 6.5-7.0 or something to bring ph up is useless. Fluish with proper ph and balanced EC 1.0 ppm 600-800 nutrient mix until runoff is a match.

Quickest way and the nutrient usage is not a waste in this situation.

My opinon of course, but I'm a newb whatdoiknow :)

Good luck
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that's all good

im not sure I agree that flushing with plain water is useless

the idea is to reduce the salinity to reduce the stress on the plant

ferilizers that are water soluble can be leached to reduce salinity

as for the ph... as soon as his plants begin to feed again the ph will begin to rise
at the moment the waters too salty

having said that theres nothing wrong with your advise, its great advise
many people flush with a low EC solution
although I don't consider EC1.0 as that "low"

but heres the thing...if the salinity is already that high from 2tsp Epsom salt I would want to get all that soluble sulfur out and Epsom is very soluble

personally I wouldn't add nutes until the drain water EC has dropped to something reasonable.... then add the low EC nutes
but either way is sound advise
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Low cec mediums like rockwool, I would flush with low nutrients as to not shock or leave roots/plants bare and restore balance if need be in one go, boom.
High cec mediums like soil I would use fresh water no problem as no matter what you do you're not gonna flush it all out in one go and plant will not be left 'bare' and shocked.

If ya know what I mean.

Coco I consider a low CEC medium.

:)
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
interesting

i have not personally grown in coco so without personal experience i cant say much

and im not sure ive read enough on the matter of "coco specific" to have a solid opinion on the differences between mediums and leaching

so maybe theres something for me to learn here

got any literature you can share with us?
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
It flushes easy ppm dropping fast checking runoff. Therefore clean water flush I wouldn't do, some ppm will be left but what is in that ppm left, it wil be imbalanced with the nutrients that the coco holds onto in its matrix, only certain minerals, and not balanced. Flush with low nutrient proper ph solution and when all is done, balance is restored in the medium.

No I cannot point you to documentation all I have is my grow experience.

do side by side test, water flush vs low nutrient flush and see which responds gets out of its troubles quicker and continues to grow on, is all I can say. Now all you need is 2 coco plants that are all messed up with a 4.5 ph etc. lol :D
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
interesting

i have not personally grown in coco so without personal experience i cant say much

and im not sure ive read enough on the matter of "coco specific" to have a solid opinion on the differences between mediums and leaching

so maybe theres something for me to learn here

got any literature you can share with us?
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https://www.maximumyield.com/buffering-up-adjusting-the-cation-exchange-capacity-in-coco-growing-media/2/1318

http://www.canna-uk.com/how_use_coco_coir_as_concept

This is an interesting few highlights about how you can deal with a mag overload by using calcium but if its a calcium overload its a real shit storm to get rid of. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=142846 the whole page is worth reading but the highlighted areas is especially.
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
A thought popped in my head so I think I will share:

Imagine growing in a fat rockwool cube outside and it pours heavy rain for a while, very quickly plant will go pale and show all kinds of deficiencies.

Imagine growing in a soil pot outside and it rains heavily for a while, plant will not get deficiencies as the soil particles hold onto minerals in their matrix / humic matrix and will grow on just fine with no added input They don't get leached, some of the mobile nutrients may be depleted slightly, but it would need to rain like crazy for multiple days to cause any issue.

Now a coco pot growing outside, if it rains heavily for a while so much nuitrients will be leached out and plant will pale out and get deficiencies fast, yes the coco has a cation exchange capacity, but it mainly only holds onto certain minerals in it's matrix and will only let them go(exchange) in the presence of another mineral, for cations to exchange, so coco will leach out and leave only certain minerals, that need other minerals to actually release out for the roots which you just flushed out. imbalanced and slower recovery now adding nutrients after the flush for example. Ok I'm pretty much done with this. I've explained most of what's in my head about this.
 
jensenbeach1

jensenbeach1

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
A thought popped in my head so I think I will share:

Imagine growing in a fat rockwool cube outside and it pours heavy rain for a while, very quickly plant will go pale and show all kinds of deficiencies.

Imagine growing in a soil pot outside and it rains heavily for a while, plant will not get deficiencies as the soil particles hold onto minerals in their matrix / humic matrix and will grow on just fine with no added input They don't get leached, some of the mobile nutrients may be depleted slightly, but it would need to rain like crazy for multiple days to cause any issue.

Now a coco pot growing outside, if it rains heavily for a while so much nuitrients will be leached out and plant will pale out and get deficiencies fast, yes the coco has a cation exchange capacity, but it mainly only holds onto certain minerals in it's matric and will only let them go(exchange) in the presence of another mineral, for cations to exchange, so coco will leach out and leave only certain minerals, that need other minerals to actually release out for the roots which you just flushed out. imbalanced and slower recovery now adding nutrients after the flush for example. Ok I'm pretty much done with this. I've explained most of what's in my head about this.
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Thats a good way to put it, we were told at Oaksterdam that you cannot truly "flush" outdoors in soil it will leech some out but you will never end up giving it pure water. They say its actually good to stay around a low ppm towards the end at like 300 with very very little nitrogen if not it will cause the leaves to get deficiencies quicker and give it less bag appeal. The reason growers in hydro need to flush is because they usually over nutrient their product and end up with an imbalance or excess in the plant. I took the course last year and was medicated most the time so I hope I didnt misinform anyone by this statement but I believe this to be true.
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
A thought popped in my head so I think I will share:

Imagine growing in a fat rockwool cube outside and it pours heavy rain for a while, very quickly plant will go pale and show all kinds of deficiencies.

Imagine growing in a soil pot outside and it rains heavily for a while, plant will not get deficiencies as the soil particles hold onto minerals in their matrix / humic matrix and will grow on just fine with no added input They don't get leached, some of the mobile nutrients may be depleted slightly, but it would need to rain like crazy for multiple days to cause any issue.

Now a coco pot growing outside, if it rains heavily for a while so much nuitrients will be leached out and plant will pale out and get deficiencies fast, yes the coco has a cation exchange capacity, but it mainly only holds onto certain minerals in it's matrix and will only let them go(exchange) in the presence of another mineral, for cations to exchange, so coco will leach out and leave only certain minerals, that need other minerals to actually release out for the roots which you just flushed out. imbalanced and slower recovery now adding nutrients after the flush for example. Ok I'm pretty much done with this. I've explained most of what's in my head about this.
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that all makes good sense and is well said

if we where trying to balance his cation he would water/ flush with magnesium and maybe some calcium at a low EC

but since he just dumped 2 tsp Epsom salt equaling over 200ppm magnesium and 260+ppm sulfur (which can burn)

in this case aren't we trying to just get the excess water soluble magnesium sulfate out ?
 
jensenbeach1

jensenbeach1

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
that all makes good sense and is well said

if we where trying to balance his cation he would water with flush with magnesium and maybe some calcium at a low EC

but since he just dumped 2 tsp Epsom salt equaling over 200ppm magnesium and 260+ppm sulfur (which can burn)

in this case aren't we trying to just get the excess water soluble magnesium sulfate out ?
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You got it down to the number game, good stuff lol. Do you create your own hydroponic blend?
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Don't forget, his runoff ph is around 4.5. We ARE trying to restore balance.

If he were to just flush with clean water, what exactly is it doing? is it flushing the exact certain minerals out of the medium that he wants, or is it just bringing the entire medium to a lower ppm, and stilll leaving the medium in an imbalanced state which wont help. clean water doesn't bring nutrient profile into balance. drops ppm and leaves the nutrients that are there, there, in not proper ratios for healthy plant growth. The damage is done, the medium needs a reset, and with coco this is easy and fast following my low nutrient way of flushing. ;)
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
Don't forget, his runoff ph is around 4.5. We ARE trying to restore balance.

If he were to just flush with clean water, what exactly is it doing? is it flushing the exact certain minerals out of the medium that he wants, or is it just bringing the entire medium to a lower ppm, and stilll leaving the medium in an imbalanced state which wont help. clean water doesn't bring nutrient profile into balance. drops ppm and leaves the nutrients that are there, there, in not proper ratios for healthy plant growth. The damage is done, the medium needs a reset, and with coco this is easy and fast following my low nutrient way of flushing. ;)
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I have to disagree with this point of view

the point to flushing is in-deed "just bringing the entire medium to a lower PPM" that's the point...unless you lower the over all EC the ph will not correct itself

after you get the excess out of balance nutes lowered you can replace them with a balanced ratio

there is some good debate and you make a good point that in some cases using a low EC solution can help get the elements the create precipitates in the medium out and this is why they sell sugar waters at hydro stores to flush with
so I don't think either of us is completely wrong

in his case the coco holding potassium along with his extremely high potassium fertilizers mix and then adding 8x the strength of Epsom salt

I still would want to get the EC down quickly and then balance the ratio

but im betting either method would eventually fix his problem but it would be interesting to know which works faster I guess
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
but im betting either method would eventually fix his problem but it would be interesting to know which works faster I guess
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True. I don't disagree. I just think the nutrient flush is 2 birds with 1 stone kinda thing. flush and balance simultaneously, so in my head, faster response/recovery. No worries bro. I would like to see this side by side done as well as I've been having this same discussion/argument for a decade now on different forums with different peeps, some are with me, some are not. It's all good grow brotha.
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
I
Johnei said:
True. I don't disagree. I just think the nutrient flush is 2 birds with 1 stone kinda thing. flush and balance simultaneously, so in my head, faster response/recovery. No worries bro. I would like to see this side by side done as well as I've been having this same discussion/argument for a decade now on different forums with different peeps, some are with me, some are not. It's all good grow brotha.
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think if he had mildly over fed your way would certainly be faster

but hes gotta have some pretty hot coco going there

does coco as a medium support the technique of testing the EC of the run off or does the nutrient holding/buffering capacity of coco negate this as useful?

im honestly not sure, like I said ive not actually grown in coco
but the drop in PH suggests high salinity or tds
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
ph dropping into 4.5 range may be a sign of a hot salt buildup medium, as the salts drive ph down. this is a sign.

Coco should always be watered to allow for a good amount of runoff and tested. What you put in compared to what comes out the bottom will guide the nutrient requirements of the plant. Yes, runoff can be tested just like rockwool for example and tell you what's going on. Imagine growing in rockwool with no runoff, you know what will happen, it is same idea. coco can be treated like hydro and should always have good runoff.

edit- ...not enough runoff and the salts build and ph gets driven down
 
jensenbeach1

jensenbeach1

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
ya I mixed my own for years... rockwool dtw
but I just got bored after so many years in hydro and recently switched to organic soil to try and learn something new and make it interesting again
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Im trying to go organic but i fear it wont be strong enough. Going to try maxibloom when we get into flower, unless our soil test says its enough for the full crop "tomatoes" not sure if they will have the same guidelines/needs as the plant I hear it does. Plus I cant go in there saying im growing cannabis lol. Wonder what your thoughts are on using maxibloom in soil? Im afraid it will kill the microbes in there, I keep hearing mixed things about microbiology and synthetics. From my understanding it just never feeds the bacteria because its in a plant ready form already. I was going to try to hit it with my homemade fish fert every once in awhile to try to "feed" the soil. Have some tester plants I can start blasting the stuff with and see how it goes. Ultimately im doing a big crop and i'd like whatever is the simplest and easiest option with very minimal effect on my soil. I hear ammonium derived nutes make soil more acidic overtime. You seem to be more in depth with your studies so maybe you can elaborate on any of my presumptions?
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
ph dropping into 4.5 range may be a sign of a hot salt buildup medium, as the salts drive ph down. this is a sign.

Coco should always be watered to allow for a good amount of runoff and tested. What you put in compared to what comes out the bottom will guide the nutrient requirements of the plant. Yes, runoff can be tested just like rockwool for example and tell you what's going on. Imagine growing in rockwool with no runoff, you know what will happen, it is same idea. coco can be treated like hydro and should always have good runoff.

edit- ...not enough runoff and the salts build and ph gets driven down
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in the case of rockwool I can set my mix so the EC coming out will be slightly lower or the same going in and itll never require a flush

but in the case of coco im not sure its going to be as specific

meaning you might use it as a relative gauge as to when to flush but can you rely on the waste EC to the specific degree that rockwool would provide .. accounting for the coco having some elemental retention similar to but less than that of soil?

this is a question not a point of argument ..lol

again ive not personally gorwn in coco
 
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