Could use some help to pin this problem down

im4satori

Well-Known Member
hi helis

glad to hear things are going well for you and thanks for the PM

that budstorm should work real good with your mix and ive about got it worked out

just tell me

is there anything else in the budstorm other than P&K?
does it have magnesium or anything else in it?

whats it say its derived from?
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
so after some thought ive reconsidered your mix

heres the issue

they don't provide the % amounts for the micro nutes on the green/bloom bottle

we know the micro nutes are in that bottle but we because its listed on the derived from ingredient

the manufacturer suggests a bottom of 16mls per gallon and your currently at 10mls per gallon
my fear is without knowing the amounts of the micro nutes that lowering the green might cause your micros amounts to drop out

therefore it allows very little room for adjustment without the potential for an issue

for that reason and because your having good results with the way the mix is at the moment id suggest

bloom
per gallon

3mls CMX
10 mls green
1mls bud storm
0.5 grams Epsom salt (1/8 tsp)


I wouldn't use more than 1 ml of the bud storm or itll push your K up too high and cause magnesium/calcium lockout....

if we new what the % amounts where for the micro nutes we would know if we could lower the green to reduce K that we gain back when you add in the bud storm
but I don't feel safe lowering it without the % info

1ml per gallon is just enough to get your P in range and doesn't add so much K that it pushes the cation out of range

(cation refers to the balance between potassium, calcium and magnesium)

you might consider only using the bud storm after week 3 of 12/12 when the plants K and P requirement start to increase, this will make cation issues less likely as the ratio changes into later flower
 
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helis

Well-Known Member
so after some thought ive reconsidered your mix

heres the issue

they don't provide the % amounts for the micro nutes on the green/bloom bottle

we know the micro nutes are in that bottle but we because its listed on the derived from ingredient

the manufacturer suggests a bottom of 16mls per gallon and your currently at 10mls per gallon
my fear is without knowing the amounts of the micro nutes that lowering the green might cause your micros amounts to drop out

therefore it allows very little room for adjustment without the potential for an issue

for that reason and because your having good results with the way the mix is at the moment id suggest

bloom
per gallon

3mls CMX
10 mls green
1mls bud storm
0.5 grams Epsom salt (1/8 tsp)


I wouldn't use more than 1 ml of the bud storm or itll push your K up too high and cause magnesium/calcium lockout....

if we new what the % amounts where for the micro nutes we would know if we could lower the green to reduce K that we gain back when you add in the bud storm
but I don't feel safe lowering it without the % info

1ml per gallon is just enough to get your P in range and doesn't add so much K that it pushes the cation out of range

(cation refers to the balance between potassium, calcium and magnesium)

you might consider only using the bud storm after week 3 of 12/12 when the plants K and P requirement start to increase, this will make cation issues less likely as the ratio changes into later flower
Thank you again for your time. I really value your input as it's been spot on to date.

So 1ml of bud storm per gallon from week 3 of flower should be fine? Because we don't know what else is in it would you suggest another way of just increasing the P?

Also just to confirm should it be 0.5g of epsom salt per gallon or 1.0g? It was 0.5g in your first post but later in the thread you said to increase to 1.0g. I've been using 1g for the last couple of weeks on veg with no signs of problems. Happy to reduce if its needed or maybe it needs to be 0.5g because of the budstorm?

A few questions there but its not lost on me. I'll soak in all the info :)
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
remind me
whats your medium? are you in soil or hydro?

I honestly don't think you need much more in the way of P but to get more youd need something like the bud strom only the % number for P would need to be even greater vs the % number for K

for example the bud storm is 0-13-11
if the last number that represents K was smaller or the middle number for P greater then you could increase the P without adding as much K
or
if we new how much of the % amounts for micros there are in the green would could reduce it to lower the K which would allow us to increase the bud storm and get more P and it would add the K back in from the reduced green amount
but this isn't an option without knowing the micor nute % info

the 1ml of bud storm is just enough to get you in range which is perfectly good

don't fall into the P trap lol

copy and paste;


The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering

Contributed by: Uncle Ben

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage is to start hitting the plants with a high P fert like 10-60-10, continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants start experiencing a deficit of N or micros as reflected by the dropping of lower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as a response to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratio of 10-60-10 is WAY to high in P. The plant will only take what it needs and compete for other elements that may be more important at the time.

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. No question about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N such as blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate may inhibit flowering especially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blends have sufficient amount of P to do the job. Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and what effect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does not necessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fert exclusively during flowering can actually work against you. It's an abundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 that produce a lot of bud, not high P ferts.

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because it is "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru the stretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especially if you're getting some yellowing in the lower/mid leaves. Give up the cannabis paradigms, and give them what they need. Go back to mild high P fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthy state of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such as Peter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best flowering blends on the market because of several factors - it is higher in nitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An added benefit of Peter's blends is their use of high quality, very pure salts that will cut down on root burn.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
the copy and paste info doesn't reflect directly on you but you get the idea

adding oodles of P wont increase yields or whatever the hype says

having the proper amount of P within a reasonable range will increase yields

so don't try and force the P just make sure your getting enough
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
love to see some pics

on the Epsom

my math says 0.5 grams should be enough

but a little extra magnesium never hurt anything

id go back to 0.5 grams and if they start asking for more then raise it up to 0.75 grams or 1 gram.... it really depends on your medium..i cant remember if your in soil or coco or what?

I think before we raised it because you where chasing a def. but once you've caught up to it you could likely be fine with 0.5 grams
 

helis

Well-Known Member
Great! My medium is coco with perlite.

Photo's I'll upload when I finish work. I need to take some new photos anyway. I just finished setting up my nursery and grow room. I've never bothered with keeping a mother but having an endless supply of cuttings is nice. Plus each grow I get more tuned into this plant. I'm pretty sure I know what kind of music it likes and I'm sure as hell know what type of drink it likes lol.
 

helis

Well-Known Member
So I found a better break down of whats in the Green Dream 1 Bloom. I figured they must have more info on their website.
Attached is the full break down of each product.
 

Attachments

im4satori

Well-Known Member
that actually confirms what I was trying to say

10mls per gallon is about spot on for the green

that puts the micro nutes in the right amounts

so we wont want to lesson it (green bloom) to substitute the for bud storm...just use it (budstorm) the way we said at 1mls per gallon and keep the green bloom at 10mls per gallon
 

helis

Well-Known Member
Two in veg, two mothers(4 cuttings in there too) and lastly a photo from the last crop that you helped me save. It has been curing for at least 2 months. Sometimes I just pull out one of the jars and look at how good this amazing little flower can be when its looked after.

The CFL's in the mothers room will be getting changed to a nice full spectrum LED panel with in a few weeks.
 

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im4satori

Well-Known Member
Two in veg, two mothers(4 cuttings in there too) and lastly a photo from the last crop that you helped me save. It has been curing for at least 2 months. Sometimes I just pull out one of the jars and look at how good this amazing little flower can be when its looked after.

The CFL's in the mothers room will be getting changed to a nice full spectrum LED panel with in a few weeks.
looking good
 

helis

Well-Known Member
11 days on from my last photo of those in the tent. It looks like they have doubled in size from the photo above. I put them both into bigger bags and switched them to flower 4 days ago. I'm going to keep feeding them the veg schedule until week 3 where i'll change the mix of CMX and add in the BudStorm.

I also found one weird leaf on the sativa strain(found it a week ago. No more have appeared). They are pretty much in a closed environment so I'm not fearing anything bug related but can these weird abnormalities happen without it being something bad?

Lastly and I wish I got a photo but I've noticed it twice now(1-2 weeks apart) I'm finding the odd leaf right at the top of the plant with what looks like water drops on it. It feels and smells like sap from the plant. When you cut down a cannabis plant and it keeps dripping from the cut for hours/days. The wet stuff feels and smells just like that. It doesn't appear to be coming from a damaged leaf. It almost seems to happen where two leafs are touching each other(overlapping). I'm not too worried at this stage but has anyone else seen this before? I'll get photos next time I spot it.

I also included a photo from within my tent looking down. Gives an idea of the coverage of the two plants.

9 and a half weeks to go......... :)
 

Attachments

im4satori

Well-Known Member
hello

the single twisted leaf doesn't indicate much on its own...

but I do see yellowing in the top growth which I suspected to be iron def

so I went back over your fertilizers and confirmed my suspicion

the iron levels in your fertilizer are on the lower end and theres not really a good way to get them up using what you have.

ive forgotten and didn't see it in my skimming..please remind me what your medium is?
 
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im4satori

Well-Known Member
unfortunately you must not have enough in your source water to make up the difference in what your fertilizer brand is lacking in iron

don't panic... its not going to kill your plants

but youll want to seek out an iron source

did you say you have calmag ?

its got iron... if you've got some calmag we could lower the cmx and add in the calmag and that would up your iron nicely
for example;
the calmag I have is
2% N
1.2% Mg
3.2% Ca
0.1% Fe (iron)

if you have some of that we can adjust your mix to raise the iron
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
if you look at your bottles youll notice the green dream has no iron listed as a %

the cmx has the only iron source

if we raise the cmx amount high enough to boost your iron itll push the nitrogen and calcium levels up way too high because the propertions of calcium and nitrogen are higher than that to iron

the calmag bottle I mentioned in my last post I believe is made by botinicare
you can see it also has only 0.1% iron (same as the cmx) .....but the calcium and nitrogen % amounts are half that of your cmx so proportionately the iron amount is higher compared to the other elements in the bottle
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
im sure there are other options

figure out whats available to you that has a good amount of iron in it and check back before buying anything so I can see if itll work with what you have
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
for now since your still in veg you can afford to raise the cmx up to 5mls per gallon

so that's
veg full strength per gallon
5mls cmx
10 mls green dream

thatll get your iron up a little more, but when you get into bloom and you've got to lower the cmx to get your N down that's where the issue will become worse
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Hi @im4satori
Medium is coco with perlite. How would something like this do as an additive?

Yates Leaf Greener Iron Chelate Plant Health Pack
Guarenteed Analysis w/v
Iron (Fe) as lignosulfonate chelate 1.25

https://www.yates.co.nz/products/fertilising/specialised/Yates-Leaf-Greener-Iron-Chelate/

Let me know what you think. I'll pick some up today if it'll fill the gap :)
im not familiar with lignosulfonate so I cant say for sure

my guess tells me its fine, but to be safe look and see if you can find another,, but you've got the right idea

if it was me id likely use it and risk it if I couldn't find something else
its just theyre marketing it as a foliar spray so idk for 100%
I partly wonder if its got soap or something in it as a foliar sticky and since we don't know for sure id feel safest if you found something derived from Fe dtpa or Fe edta

if you where going to use it ..... youd use 0.4ml per gallon..... so that's 2mls per 5 gallons
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelated-Liquid-Iron-16oz-Pint-Southern-Ag-/272185317150?epid=1012056433&hash=item3f5f82571e:m:m0_NleHN69e-eew-FojToaA

https://southernag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Chelated-Liquid-Iron-1.pdf

ok

did a couple searches and realized I have used this type iron in the past without issues

its the same thing as the southern AG stuff ive used but more expensive and less concentrated

the concentration of your brand will be easier to mix in smaller amounts... this souther ag is 5% and will be only usefull if mixing larger amounts

the southern AG brand youd use 1ml per 10 gallons

but either one is good depending on how much you mix each time you water
 
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