Doctors getting kickbacks from Lps?

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JungleStrikeGuy

Well-Known Member
WeeblesWobbles said:
There are bad actors in every field but, in general, the pharma and medical professionals I deal with are moral, honest, and ethical individuals.
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This is something that was pointed out as soon as it was clear the MMPR was Harper trying to throw big pharma some patronage : the epidemic of 'education experts' (salespeople) present in big pharma was going to happen here too.

You can bet, beyond all the 'on the books' stuff there's plenty of 'gifts', dinners, social outings etc paid for by LP sales reps. To be fair to the LP's this happens within corporate life in general but Pfizer, GSK, etc are only too happy to 'educate' doctors on their latest pill.

You may have happened upon a wonderful cross-section of the medical community, but these aren't the people driving this movement. It's people in boardrooms of GSK, in boardrooms of Tilray, etc. Add the draconian advertising regulations, and you can also bet LP's are pumping even more money into off the books advertising. And you can see the results in the Paxil, Oxycontin, etc scandals.

The 'treatment plan' push is just another way for the govt to get around home grows using non-government resources as state actors / agents of the state. Oh you're not filling your script? Maybe we'll have a 'surprise' visit to your home, or pull smart-meter reports, etc. The state actors line of thinking was part of the R v Mernagh cases and unfortunately the appeal court didn't agree. Doctors have 0% business in doing anything beyond making a medical judgement and signing the forms.

And not re-signing, or halving a dosage because they aren't buying from LP's? That's not practicing medicine, that's practicing cruelty. The ridiculousness of this whole situation is perfectly illustrated by the line of thinking that 'the same plant is illegal if you grow it in a garden, but is legal if it's grown in a bank wrapped in a prison'.

I would urge anyone who runs into this to take it to your appropriate CPSO organization, and if they don't respond to the media. Cannabis is a 'popular' topic now, and the media always loves a good medical scandal.
 
VIANARCHRIS

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
WeeblesWobbles said:
There are bad actors in every field but, in general, the pharma and medical professionals I deal with are moral, honest, and ethical individuals.
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You must not be from around here...meaning this planet(lol)...every doctor I've had the misfortune of dealing with in the last 20 years was an asshole. I can tell you horror stories...And I don't trust or use anything coming out of the pharmaceuticals.
 
W

WeeblesWobbles

Well-Known Member
JungleStrikeGuy said:
This is something that was pointed out as soon as it was clear the MMPR was Harper trying to throw big pharma some patronage : the epidemic of 'education experts' (salespeople) present in big pharma was going to happen here too.

You can bet, beyond all the 'on the books' stuff there's plenty of 'gifts', dinners, social outings etc paid for by LP sales reps. To be fair to the LP's this happens within corporate life in general but Pfizer, GSK, etc are only too happy to 'educate' doctors on their latest pill.

You may have happened upon a wonderful cross-section of the medical community, but these aren't the people driving this movement. It's people in boardrooms of GSK, in boardrooms of Tilray, etc. Add the draconian advertising regulations, and you can also bet LP's are pumping even more money into off the books advertising. And you can see the results in the Paxil, Oxycontin, etc scandals.

The 'treatment plan' push is just another way for the govt to get around home grows using non-government resources as state actors / agents of the state. Oh you're not filling your script? Maybe we'll have a 'surprise' visit to your home, or pull smart-meter reports, etc. The state actors line of thinking was part of the R v Mernagh cases and unfortunately the appeal court didn't agree. Doctors have 0% business in doing anything beyond making a medical judgement and signing the forms.

And not re-signing, or halving a dosage because they aren't buying from LP's? That's not practicing medicine, that's practicing cruelty. The ridiculousness of this whole situation is perfectly illustrated by the line of thinking that 'the same plant is illegal if you grow it in a garden, but is legal if it's grown in a bank wrapped in a prison'.

I would urge anyone who runs into this to take it to your appropriate CPSO organization, and if they don't respond to the media. Cannabis is a 'popular' topic now, and the media always loves a good medical scandal.
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Thanks for this reasoned argument. I disagree with your assessment of the scope of the problem but admit there is a kernel of truth in every one of your assertions. This whole MMJ arena is covered in slime, it appears. On both sides of the border.
 
T

TheDizzyBizzy

Well-Known Member
tiktak1297 said:
So I hang around a few dispensaries in the Toronto area. Over the past 3 months I have heard the same story enough times to be alarmed. Patients going to their doctors to get their mmpr renewed are being questioned by their doctor as to why they aren't buying from their LP. Apparently the lps are sharing the patients purchase history with the doctor. A few have told their doctors they can't afford it. I know of 2 that told their doctor they purchase from dispensary. One of those patients had his script reduced by half, the other was outright denied his renewal.

I know that at least 4 doctors are doing this. A lawyer got involved in one case, and the doctor apologized but denied any favoritism toward the lp. He ended up resigning the patient, but has denied others for the same reason.

My question: although this is clearly unethical and immoral, is it illegal? I mean just because a patient favors dispensary product, that shouldn't allow the doctor to suddenly decide that the patient needs x amount less to treat the same ailment. Have any of you heard of this? How are the doctors benefiting? Percentage of patients purchases maybe?
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Yes, a doctor will not renew if they know you are breaking the law and misusing your note to visit a dispensary. Welcome to the real world. Just like a doctor would not refill a prescription for pain pills if you've been misusing it.
 
VIANARCHRIS

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
Or...A doctor can limit his input to the only thing he/she is good for and renew the script. My doctor didn't say shit,nor did he care, if I filled my prescription at Walmart or Pharmasave...or sometimes not at all. The only time a doctor would refuse to renew a script for pain pills is if there was proof of 'doctor shopping' for multiple scripts or if they have been contacted by police.Any exchange of patient information between a doctor and a drug supplier is against the law.
 
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tiktak1297

Well-Known Member
TheDizzyBizzy said:
Yes, a doctor will not renew if they know you are breaking the law and misusing your note to visit a dispensary. Welcome to the real world. Just like a doctor would not refill a prescription for pain pills if you've been misusing it.
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But that's not the case. If the doctors simply refused to renew based on legality that's their prerogative. However the fact that a doctor went as far as to cut a script it half bothers me. Where I choose to buy my medicine from doesn't suddenly make me half as sick. Seems spiteful.
 
VIANARCHRIS

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
tiktak1297 said:
But that's not the case. If the doctors simply refused to renew based on legality that's their prerogative. However the fact that a doctor went as far as to cut a script it half bothers me. Where I choose to buy my medicine from doesn't suddenly make me half as sick. Seems spiteful.
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If there was any communication between the doctor and the LP and patient names were mentioned it would result in lawsuits and possibly criminal charges. I call BS on collaboration, on an individual patient level,if at all, between doctors and LP's.
 
T

tiktak1297

Well-Known Member
VIANARCHRIS said:
If there was any communication between the doctor and the LP and patient names were mentioned it would result in lawsuits and possibly criminal charges. I call BS on collaboration, on an individual patient level,if at all, between doctors and LP's.
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I assure you this happened. Several times. But I mean I'm just some dude on the Internet so you have no reason to believe me.
 
VIANARCHRIS

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
tiktak1297 said:
I assure you this happened. Several times. But I mean I'm just some dude on the Internet so you have no reason to believe me.
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Not that I don't believe you, just that I don't believe someone would allow this to happen and not make a lot of noise. If there is proof, the patient being spoken about is entitled to sue...and expose the practice. Each province has their own PIPA...here is BC's. http://www.cio.gov.bc.ca/local/cio/priv_leg/documents/pipa/guidepipaview.pdf
I've used it to force my ex-doctor to release everything he had written about me. If you or someone else has evidence of your doctor discussing your marijuana use with a representative from an LP, or anyone else, you need to file a complaint.
 
W

WeeblesWobbles

Well-Known Member
How is this
tiktak1297 said:
I assure you this happened. Several times. But I mean I'm just some dude on the Internet so you have no reason to believe me.
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I don't know Canadian laws but I sure know HIPAA in the US: A practice breaching confidentiality by referring to a patient by name? Lawsuit. A practice getting a list of subscribers from the LP that they could cross-check against their patient pool? Kosher.

It's a strange relationship, I'll give you that.
 
T

tiktak1297

Well-Known Member
VIANARCHRIS said:
Not that I don't believe you, just that I don't believe someone would allow this to happen and not make a lot of noise. If there is proof, the patient being spoken about is entitled to sue...and expose the practice. Each province has their own PIPA...here is BC's. http://www.cio.gov.bc.ca/local/cio/priv_leg/documents/pipa/guidepipaview.pdf
I've used it to force my ex-doctor to release everything he had written about me. If you or someone else has evidence of your doctor discussing your marijuana use with a representative from an LP, or anyone else, you need to file a complaint.
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Not sure what kind of proof there could be, short of recording the meeting with the doctor. I don't think the doctor shares anything with the lp, just the lp sends the doc a list of how much his patients have been purchasing. Then I guess it's up to the doctor to do what he wants with that. Not that that makes it OK but...
 
VIANARCHRIS

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
tiktak1297 said:
Not sure what kind of proof there could be, short of recording the meeting with the doctor. I don't think the doctor shares anything with the lp, just the lp sends the doc a list of how much his patients have been purchasing. Then I guess it's up to the doctor to do what he wants with that. Not that that makes it OK but...
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ya, I'm not sure what you could do with that...it just exposes a HUGE flaw in the mmpr. With every other prescribed medication, there is middleman (pharmacist) between the producers and the doctor patient relationship. The makers of viagra don't have a list of patients prescribed the drug and there would be backlash if there were. Anyone that has been forced to use an LP has had their privacy violated and should sue HC. IMO
 
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WeeblesWobbles

Well-Known Member
Is it actually a drug up there? It's my understanding that in the states it's not. There is no prescription written, just some kind of quasi-half-ass approval.

If it was a drug it would never make it to market from what I've seen.
 
VIANARCHRIS

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
WeeblesWobbles said:
Is it actually a drug up there? It's my understanding that in the states it's not. There is no prescription written, just some kind of quasi-half-ass approval.

If it was a drug it would never make it to market from what I've seen.
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No D.I.N., but anything given for medical use and only available by a doctor's script, carries the same weight as a prescription. Hard to argue there's a difference.
 
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