Help me with application rates/frequency!

Hello RIU.

I need some help with application rates. I have a 2ft x 2ft x 4ft box with a 25 gal smartpot holding two plants (Cataract OG and Platinum Bubba) grown in a ROLS mix of compost, rice hulls, and peat amended with Dr Earth Tomato fert (dry, organic, meal based), neem (IPM), crab (chitin), azomite (trace), biochar (cation exchange), and oyster shell (ph, calcium).

I plan on "feeding" with the following;

Neptunes Harvest Fish Hydrosolate/Kelp
Aloe Vera (fresh from my plant)
Coconut water
Popcorn SST
Compost Tea (compost/ewc, molasses, water only)
Also growing Comfrey, Stinging Nettle, and Yarrow to work fresh leaves into the mulch.

My question is how often should I be giving the girls the Neptunes, aloe, coconut water, SST, and compost tea? Anyone use similar products and would be willing to share their "feeding" schedule?

I was thinking Week 1 SST to stimulate growth, Week 2 aloe Vera for silicon and roots, week 3 Neptunes for a good kick, week 4 coconut water, week 5 compost tea, week 6 plain water. Repeat as needed. I'm only having to water about once every 10 days right now with just the cover crop going as the large smartpot doesn't dry out very fast indoors. I'm assuming I'll be watering about once a week once girls are growing.

Do you think the fresh water in between is necessary? Can I combine any of these?

Thanks in advance! Once the site lets us post pics again I'll share some.

OrganicSmokeOnly77 said:

Hello RIU.

I need some help with application rates. I have a 2ft x 2ft x 4ft box with a 25 gal smartpot holding two plants (Cataract OG and Platinum Bubba) grown in a ROLS mix of compost, rice hulls, and peat amended with Dr Earth Tomato fert (dry, organic, meal based), neem (IPM), crab (chitin), azomite (trace), biochar (cation exchange), and oyster shell (ph, calcium).

I plan on "feeding" with the following;

Neptunes Harvest Fish Hydrosolate/Kelp
Aloe Vera (fresh from my plant)
Coconut water
Popcorn SST
Compost Tea (compost/ewc, molasses, water only)
Also growing Comfrey, Stinging Nettle, and Yarrow to work fresh leaves into the mulch.

My question is how often should I be giving the girls the Neptunes, aloe, coconut water, SST, and compost tea? Anyone use similar products and would be willing to share their "feeding" schedule?

I was thinking Week 1 SST to stimulate growth, Week 2 aloe Vera for silicon and roots, week 3 Neptunes for a good kick, week 4 coconut water, week 5 compost tea, week 6 plain water. Repeat as needed. I'm only having to water about once every 10 days right now with just the cover crop going as the large smartpot doesn't dry out very fast indoors. I'm assuming I'll be watering about once a week once girls are growing.

Do you think the fresh water in between is necessary? Can I combine any of these?

Thanks in advance! Once the site lets us post pics again I'll share some.

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you definitely don't need to do something every water. just plain water often is fine (that's the beauty of organic!). i would use the neptunes for your compost teas and skip using it on its own. alternate aloe and SST and just use them every so often. no need to go crazy with it. just need to remember....you are a soil farmer, not a plant farmer. the plants grow themselves if you take good care of the soil!

ShLUbY said:

you definitely don't need to do something every water. just plain water often is fine (that's the beauty of organic!). i would use the neptunes for your compost teas and skip using it on its own. alternate aloe and SST and just use them every so often. no need to go crazy with it. just need to remember....you are a soil farmer, not a plant farmer. the plants grow themselves if you take good care of the soil!

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Thanks ShLUby. I do already add the fish/kelp to the compost tea, so will include that there only.

Something maybe like:

Week 1: Aloe foliar/Popcorn SST drench
Week 2: plain water
Week 3: Aloe foliar/coconut water drench
Week 4: AACT foliar and drench
Repeat through flower, removing the foliar as buds form.

Seems easier and more manageable. Sound good?

OrganicSmokeOnly77 said:

Thanks ShLUby. I do already add the fish/kelp to the compost tea, so will include that there only.

Something maybe like:

Week 1: Aloe foliar/Popcorn SST drench
Week 2: plain water
Week 3: Aloe foliar/coconut water drench
Week 4: AACT foliar and drench
Repeat through flower, removing the foliar as buds form.

Seems easier and more manageable. Sound good?

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its whatever you want it to be my friend. you honestly don't have to do any of it (except the fungal tea IMO). I do them when i feel like it, and i don't when i don't feel like it lol.

I agree with not needing something every water.

Less is more and keep it simple. I top dress with some worm castings and a pinch of garden tone once a month.

If you have a good mix it won't need much.

The best thing you can do is see how your mix holds up. Let the plant tell you if it needs something and adjust accordingly.

Agreed but I just have heard so much about the benefits of cytokins and growth enzymes in coco water/SST as well as the immunity response caused by the silicon in Aloe, so I wanted to get them in. In such a small room I probably won't be able to veg long (4-6 weeks) and I want to maximize my yield as much as possible. My veggies have a longer growing growing season, so easier for me to relax lol maybe just do once upfront and then read the plants/soil from there? I may be overthinking as you guys mentioned. Pretty confident in my soil mix as well as the red wigglers I added to do most of the leg work, but coco/sst and aloe seem to be god sends! I need to find a way to work then in at least once

Like has been mentioned, let the plant tell you what it needs. Since I made that switch, it's all easy.
Just water.
WE

concentrate on par lighting, atmosphere controls-rh-temps-, water quality, air flow.
I've grown in promix and Dr Earth ferts ONLY, and the results were great.

all those awesome amendments wont do anything under poor light, or in sweltering heat.

they only grow to their
weakest resource. trust me, it aint your substrate(makes my mouth water)

Get away from the idea you need to feed them all the time and let your mix do all the work instead. Add dry amendments, compost, and minerals and then let your soil cook for at least a month before putting plants in it. Give teas sparingly and only during late veg to mid flowering phase. I might give 2 or 3 AACT applications over the entire lifespan of a given plant. It's to maintain microbial activity which keeps plants healthy and happy but doesn't do much to provide actual nutrients to the root zone.
Neptunes harvest, kelp meal, and compost makes for a killer tea recipe but I notice in your listed ingredients that's what you are lacking and is SUPER important: compost. It is what drives everything in your mix and is the main source of the microbes you'll need to get to supernatural status. You do want to add teas more often in the beginning but as your mix is recycled a few times it becomes even better. Starting up a worm bin is the best thing IMO an organic grower can do...

OrganicSmokeOnly77 said:

Thanks ShLUby. I do already add the fish/kelp to the compost tea, so will include that there only.

Something maybe like:

Week 1: Aloe foliar/Popcorn SST drench
Week 2: plain water
Week 3: Aloe foliar/coconut water drench
Week 4: AACT foliar and drench
Repeat through flower, removing the foliar as buds form.

Seems easier and more manageable. Sound good?

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This is the feeding schedule put forth by mountain Organics/Bluejay.


"Here’s an example of a tried and true watering schedule (because I personally used it for years) to use from day 1 to ensure your plants are being pushed to ‘peak health’ and expressing their full ‘genetic potential.’:

Day 1 Plain water
Day 2 No watering
Day 3 MBP top-dress watered in with Aloe/Fulvic/Silica (agsil or your silica source of choice)
Day 4 No watering
Day 5 Plain water
Day 6 Neem/Kelp tea
Day 7 No watering
Day 8 Plain water
Day 9 No watering
Day 10 Coconut Water
Day 11 No watering

REPEAT - Beginning to end, no changes needed for various stages of growth, simple enough right?"


Your mixture is very close to a traditional no til recipe. If you add some worms, malted barley powder and mulch you should be pretty set to use that soil for years. Malted barley is great because it is sproutes to the point of maximum enzyme content. Making SSTs at home is really at best, a guessing game. My last suggestion would be to ditch they oyster flour and azomite and try and get some gypsum and basalt or other rock dust. I've been told azomite has high levels of aluminum which can be problematic for your health. Whatever you do, I'm glad you're over here and not on the hydroponics forum. Stay safe and happy farming.

Amshif87 said:

This is the feeding schedule put forth by mountain Organics/Bluejay.


"Here’s an example of a tried and true watering schedule (because I personally used it for years) to use from day 1 to ensure your plants are being pushed to ‘peak health’ and expressing their full ‘genetic potential.’:

Day 1 Plain water
Day 2 No watering
Day 3 MBP top-dress watered in with Aloe/Fulvic/Silica (agsil or your silica source of choice)
Day 4 No watering
Day 5 Plain water
Day 6 Neem/Kelp tea
Day 7 No watering
Day 8 Plain water
Day 9 No watering
Day 10 Coconut Water
Day 11 No watering

REPEAT - Beginning to end, no changes needed for various stages of growth, simple enough right?"


Your mixture is very close to a traditional no til recipe. If you add some worms, malted barley powder and mulch you should be pretty set to use that soil for years. Malted barley is great because it is sproutes to the point of maximum enzyme content. Making SSTs at home is really at best, a guessing game. My last suggestion would be to ditch they oyster flour and azomite and try and get some gypsum and basalt or other rock dust. I've been told azomite has high levels of aluminum which can be problematic for your health. Whatever you do, I'm glad you're over here and not on the hydroponics forum. Stay safe and happy farming.

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My bag of crab meal says it's 14.0% CaCO3. This isn't nearly enough carbonate to neutralize all those negatively charged hydrogen sites found in my peat.

This is why we use oyster shell flour as ITS 96% CaCO3.

MistaRasta said:

My bag of crab meal says it's 14.0% CaCO3. This isn't nearly enough carbonate to neutralize all those negatively charged hydrogen sites found in my peat.

This is why we use oyster shell flour as ITS 96% CaCO3.

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neg charge hydrogen sites????? this is incorrectly worded. sorry rasta i aint trying to pick on you, I just want to clarify what's trying to be conveyed here

Hydrogen atoms are positive (group I on periodic table). These hydrogen atoms are involved in acid/base reactions in the soil. Any molecule that gives up (donates) a hydrogen atom (or accepts electrons depending on your definition) is an acid, and any proton (H) acceptor (or donates electrons) is a base. So I'm sure you can see that your clay/humus/biochar/peat are both acidic and basic depending on the reaction that is taking place, even though they consistently have a negative charge to them. Another thing to remember is when bonds form energy is released, and when bonds break energy needs to be absorbed to break it.

clay/humus/biochar/peat have - charged (anion) sites which is what does the cation exhange (cations being Ca, H, Mg, K, Al, Na, NH4, ect). The plant will swap cations that are in excess (usually H atoms though) with the cations on clay/humus/biochar/peat particles around the roots for ones that it needs (CEC).

So here's about how it works with just one single reaction example.... Say the plant wants some positive charged cation, it would then send a hydrogen atom into the root zone. Then, say that H+ atom bumps into the negative surface of a nearby clay particle (or biochar/peat/humus) and forms an ionic bond. Then at the same time that happens, maybe the energy released when that bond forms is absorbed by another system (bond) and breaks it. This releases a cation into the root zone and the nearby root adsorbs that cation for uptake in the same ionic bond fashion.

now obviously, this is happening countless times per second in the soil in aqueous (water) solutions.

so the reason why peat makes soil so acidic is because the environment that it was formed in there was a lot of excess hydrogen atoms around which stayed with the peat as it formed when dried/compressed over however the hell long it takes to make it lol. when you put that peat in your soil mix it has all those acidic protons (H+ ions) and dumps them off in exchange for the other cations get into the solution of water in the soil. This is where your liming agents come into play, by having excess amounts of Ca, and Mg in carbonated or hydroxylated forms to help neutralize (form bonds) with the hydrogen atoms, and create products like carbonic acid which breaks down into H2O and CO2 (awesome!!), and frees up the Ca, and Mg into plant available ions which either get taken in by the plant or adsorb to the negative surface of peat/clay/humus/biochar!

any questions???

ShLUbY said:

neg charge hydrogen sites????? this is incorrectly worded. sorry rasta i aint trying to pick on you, I just want to clarify what's trying to be conveyed here

Hydrogen atoms are positive (group I on periodic table). These hydrogen atoms are involved in acid/base reactions in the soil. Any molecule that gives up (donates) a hydrogen atom (or accepts electrons depending on your definition) is an acid, and any proton (H) acceptor (or donates electrons) is a base. So I'm sure you can see that your clay/humus/biochar/peat are both acidic and basic depending on the reaction that is taking place, even though they consistently have a negative charge to them. Another thing to remember is when bonds form energy is released, and when bonds break energy needs to be absorbed to break it.

clay/humus/biochar/peat have - charged (anion) sites which is what does the cation exhange (cations being Ca, H, Mg, K, Al, Na, NH4, ect). The plant will swap cations that are in excess (usually H atoms though) with the cations on clay/humus/biochar/peat particles around the roots for ones that it needs (CEC).

So here's about how it works with just one single reaction example.... Say the plant wants some positive charged cation, it would then send a hydrogen atom into the root zone. Then, say that H+ atom bumps into the negative surface of a nearby clay particle (or biochar/peat/humus) and forms an ionic bond. Then at the same time that happens, maybe the energy released when that bond forms is absorbed by another system (bond) and breaks it. This releases a cation into the root zone and the nearby root adsorbs that cation for uptake in the same ionic bond fashion.

now obviously, this is happening countless times per second in the soil in aqueous (water) solutions.

so the reason why peat makes soil so acidic is because the environment that it was formed in there was a lot of excess hydrogen atoms around which stayed with the peat as it formed when dried/compressed over however the hell long it takes to make it lol. when you put that peat in your soil mix it has all those acidic protons (H+ ions) and dumps them off in exchange for the other cations get into the solution of water in the soil. This is where your liming agents come into play, by having excess amounts of Ca, and Mg in carbonated or hydroxylated forms to help neutralize (form bonds) with the hydrogen atoms, and create products like carbonic acid which breaks down into H2O and CO2 (awesome!!), and frees up the Ca, and Mg into plant available ions which either get taken in by the plant or adsorb to the negative surface of peat/clay/humus/biochar!

any questions???

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I don't think it's worded incorrectly at all.

Being hydrogen is an acid cation I'd say it fits the bill just right.

"By definition, the pH of a soil is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions in soil water. Recall that the hydrogen ion is an acid cation. The greater the concentration of hydrogen ions in the soil water solution, the lower the pH. In return, the lower the pH value, the greater the acidity of the soil will be. The concentration of hydrogen ions in the soil solution is directly proportionate to and in equilibrium with the hydrogen ions retained on the soil’s cation exchange complex. Thus, the hydrogen ions retained by clay particlesreplenish, or buffer, the hydrogen ions in soil water."

MistaRasta said:

I don't think it's worded incorrectly at all.

Being hydrogen is an acid cation I'd say it fits the bill just right.

"By definition, the pH of a soil is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions in soil water. Recall that the hydrogen ion is an acid cation. The greater the concentration of hydrogen ions in the soil water solution, the lower the pH. In return, the lower the pH value, the greater the acidity of the soil will be. The concentration of hydrogen ions in the soil solution is directly proportionate to and in equilibrium with the hydrogen ions retained on the soil’s cation exchange complex. Thus, the hydrogen ions retained by clay particlesreplenish, or buffer, the hydrogen ions in soil water."

Any questions?

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right... but when you say "negative charged hydrogen sites" i guess it seemed that you were implying that the sites themselves were negative hydrogens, do you see what im saying? it was just worded funny i think

MistaRasta said:

If the sites of peat are filled with H and has a a ph of 4.0-4.5 how are the H ions not negatively charged?


This is why we use lime or CaCO3 to displace the - H ion with Carbonate and replace the site with a + Ca ion.

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good question. just because the H+ causes acidity, does not mean it is negatively charged. H+ is referred to as acidic because the definition of an acid reaction is to give an H atom away (in this case anyway but technically it means to accept electron(s), which Hydrogen leaves one behind when it is released so it satisfies this definition as well).

the answer lies in the paragraph that you copy and pasted. this is right from the paragraph "Recall that the hydrogen ion is an acid cation." what is a cation??? a positively charged ion. because H is positive it forms ionic bonds (which easily break in water) with the negatively charged peat particle surfaces (just as it would with clay/biochar/humus). and any cation is going to make these bonds as well (Mg, Ca, NH4, ect ect ect. i already wrote all this info above).

so here is a reaction example of what is happening between calcium carbonate and hydrogen:

CaCO3 + 2H+ --(substitution rxn in water)----> H2CO3 + Ca^+2 -----(decomposition of H2CO3 *carbonic acid*)-----> H2O (l) + CO2 (g) + Ca^+2

the acid hydrogen cations have been neutralized into water, we have lost carbon and oxygen in the form of CO2 from the soil, and the Ca+2 are now free to be adsorbed by the plant roots, or by the peat/humus/biochar/clay. But hydrogen is not an anion in any of these steps.

ShLUbY said:

good question.

the answer lies in the paragraph that you copy and pasted. this is right from the paragraph "Recall that the hydrogen ion is an acid cation." what is a cation??? a positively charged ion. because H is positive it forms ionic bonds with the negatively charged peat particle surfaces (just as it would with clay/biochar/humus). and any cation is going to make these bonds as well (Mg, Ca, NH4, ect ect ect. i already wrote all this info above).

so here is a reaction example of what is happening between calcium carbonate and hydrogen:

CaCO3 + 2H+ --(substitution rxn in water)----> H2CO3 + Ca^+2 -----(decomposition of H2CO3 *carbonic acid*)-----> H2O (l) + CO2 (g) + Ca^+2

the acid hydrogen cations have been neutralized into water, and the Ca+2 are now free to be adsorbed by the plant roots, or by the peat/humus/biochar/clay. But hydrogen is not an anion in any of these steps.

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Cool, thanks for the info.

May I have your source?

MistaRasta said:

Cool, thanks for the info.

May I have your source?

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my source for the fundamentals and definitions: chemistry classes. if you look at any of the general chem and early organic chem online texts from .edu sites you can find this info on the web pretty readily (youtube has a lot of good videos too). then it's just putting the pieces of the puzzle together with an understanding of the fundamentals from the texts.

i would have never understood this stuff well enough to explain it if it wasn't for education.

here is a source for basically what i explained a couple posts ago about acidity and CEC in the soil

http://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/AGF-505-07

MistaRasta said:

I see where I was getting confused..

In the difference of +H and -Oh

I was thinking of hydroxyl ions being that we have to water the soil.

Either way, I was wrong and appreciate the explanation. The peat is indeed filled with +H ions and when water meets these +H ions it forms -OH in which the +H ion is dropped and the +Ca Is adsorbed and replaces the -Oh.

Right?

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nope. the basic thing that is happening here is what i explained a few posts ago. I suggest you look up the definition of an ionic bond and it will help you understand this process better. remember when bonds form, energy is released and when bonds break energy is required to break them. So, from my earlier post.... (i suggest you reread the whole post)

"So here's about how it works with just one single reaction example.... Say the plant wants some positive charged cation, it would then send a hydrogen atom into the root zone. Then, say that H+ atom bumps into the negative surface of a nearby clay particle (or biochar/peat/humus) and forms an ionic bond. Then at the same time that happens, maybe the energy released when that bond formed is absorbed by another system (bond) and breaks it. This releases a cation into the root zone and the nearby root adsorbs that cation for uptake in the same ionic bond fashion. " so H+ bumps into negative charged surface, forms a bond to the negative surface and adsorbs to the surface, which simultaneously kicks away Ca+ (or an Mg+, NH4+, ect ect ect) from that negatively charged surface.

remember that these negatively charged particles of clay/humus/peat/biochar/scoria whatever they may be, don't just do this exchange with hydrogen, they can do it with any cation that is looking for so electrons to help neutralize the + charge it has. this particle is referred to as an electrophile because it loves/wants to get some electrons because it is deficient in them. everything is trying to be at the lowest energy state possible. so if a cation gets neutralized by bonding with the anionic surface, then it is happy at a lower energy state.

if you look at the equation that I posted for a basic calcium carbonate rxn, you will see where these free Ca cations come from. the products are the cation + water + co2 gas. but this reaction can easily occur with magnesium carbonate, and other hydroxyl groups.

Wow. Bombs were just dropped. I'm glad @ShLUbY came in with all the facts straight. It's great that this community has members who are so knowledgeable and willing to take the time to explain the actual science. Thank you for helping me understand the how and why. We're lucky to have you. Much love man. Stay safe and happy farming

ShLUbY said:

nope. the basic thing that is happening here is what i explained a few posts ago. I suggest you look up the definition of an ionic bond and it will help you understand this process better. remember when bonds form, energy is released and when bonds break energy is required to break them. So, from my earlier post.... (i suggest you reread the whole post)

"So here's about how it works with just one single reaction example.... Say the plant wants some positive charged cation, it would then send a hydrogen atom into the root zone. Then, say that H+ atom bumps into the negative surface of a nearby clay particle (or biochar/peat/humus) and forms an ionic bond. Then at the same time that happens, maybe the energy released when that bond formed is absorbed by another system (bond) and breaks it. This releases a cation into the root zone and the nearby root adsorbs that cation for uptake in the same ionic bond fashion. " so H+ bumps into negative charged surface, forms a bond to the negative surface and adsorbs to the surface, which simultaneously kicks away Ca+ (or an Mg+, NH4+, ect ect ect) from that negatively charged surface.

remember that these negatively charged particles of clay/humus/peat/biochar/scoria whatever they may be, don't just do this exchange with hydrogen, they can do it with any cation that is looking for so electrons to help neutralize the + charge it has. this particle is referred to as an electrophile because it loves/wants to get some electrons because it is deficient in them. everything is trying to be at the lowest energy state possible. so if a cation gets neutralized by bonding with the anionic surface, then it is happy at a lower energy state.

if you look at the equation that I posted for a basic calcium carbonate rxn, you will see where these free Ca cations come from. the products are the cation + water + co2 gas. but this reaction can easily occur with magnesium carbonate, and other hydroxyl groups.

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So what will the exchange sites be displaced with if the soil has a ph of 6.0 or lower?