Is decarboxylate necessary if not ingesting
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canadian1969
Well-Known Member
Pretty much, decarb is the process of turning thc-a into thc, which happens automatically when smoked/vaped
If you are making an edible that will not be heated (baked or otherwise cooked) then decarboxylating is needed.
Because you can never really tell what someone may do with a concentrate such as honey oil most people decarb as a matter of "just in case" or they deacarb and dry their source material prior to extraction (I do this to dive as much water out of the material as possible before adding the solvent). In the case of bho and vacuum ovens I think they decarb last while purging.
If you are making an edible that will not be heated (baked or otherwise cooked) then decarboxylating is needed.
Because you can never really tell what someone may do with a concentrate such as honey oil most people decarb as a matter of "just in case" or they deacarb and dry their source material prior to extraction (I do this to dive as much water out of the material as possible before adding the solvent). In the case of bho and vacuum ovens I think they decarb last while purging.
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eugeneoregon
Active Member
The video shows my extract in my glass vac chamber at high vacuum and set in the sun. iPad was set to time lapse. Under very high vacuum and full sunlight it took a pretty long time to decarb, even in the oxygen depleted vacuum atmosphere of the chamber.
Extract and fresh soda pop have in common extra carbon dioxide they are always getting rid of.
I routinely take extract apart and put it back together in various home lab experiements. Let me be very clear about decarboxylation. It takes two things to accellerate the decarb process, time and temp. Think of carbonated soda. If you uncap it then it will indeed decarb but it takes time. Leave it in the sun and it goes faster BUT it is not instantaneous. An instantaneous reaction is nearly impossible chemically but would need a catalyst to achieve like VERY hot metal. Like soda it takes time. There is zero chance that completely raw extract will fully decarboxylate during the brief moment that it is subject to the heat of a vaporizer or even during the heat from a single hit off a bong or pipe. I have no real experience with dabbing although I own a rig. I suspect that the catalyzing nature of a glowing hot nail may get close to a fully decarbed product as evidenced by the reports of dabbing producing the most complete experience for users generally.
Test the idea on soda pop. A brief splash into a hot cup will indeed decarboxylate the soda pop at a vigorous rate but watch the cup and you will for sure see it is not spontaneous. Reactions ALWAYS need time as the integral factor to complete.
Urban legend sponsors the idea that decarboxylation occurs completely in a vaporizer. Unlikely. You can prove this idea to yourself easily and at the same time answer your own question about how long to decarb it will take. Generally count on thirty full minutes AT LEAST for extractions of marijuanna.
Take your extract and place it on a good petri dish or a small ceramic dish. I have a few of the ceramic ones that are bought in the rodent section at Petco as watering dishes. Place the dish on the stove top and set the stove about halfway to MED so that if a pot of water was placed on it that it would get hot but not boil. I use a "burning finger" method - if the dish becomes too hot to gingerly pick up wihout burning a finger then turn down the stove just a bit.
Now you will simply observe the extract. I like to stir mine with a metal pick. We have an advantage with this reaction because we can directly observe the decarb process just like a soda pop. At first the extract will "fizz" briskly but something will become obvious to you - even after 20 minutes of very hot decarbing it will not be nearly complete which is directly observable by the amount of bubbles it produces. Do not fret about terps or degrading the THC from this kind of heat. They cannot be destroyed at this temp, although in my experience the terp content is generally much more pleasent when it too is moderated. I have become sensitive to pinene so prefer to remove the bulk of pinene but I have done tests with terpene additions to my extract and have discovered a TINY amount will do just fine for effect. Too much is a respiratory irritant and too little then the dabs lose some of the "pop" and rush effect. You will smell terps when heating but do not consider this a loss because there are likely more present than can be used theraputically anyway.
So my advice on decarbing to you is different than I apply it to my own. You specified you wish to preserve terps. I choose to remove terps larglely so my process takes a bit longer and a bit of expertise. For your goals heating the extract as explained and observing it is key IF the goal is complete decarboxylation prior to inhaling. I suspect that any THCA that does get inhaled will likely decarboxylate in your bloodstream but I can tell you this; if you spend the time as outlined to decarb and observe you will begin to understand why the extract does not have enough time on top of a vaporizer coil to complete decarbing.
You will also discover something that many old timers do not realize - FULLY decarbed extract (prior to inhaling) will be felt as a FAR more potent hit. The perceived flavor will be MUCH smoother as well. Decarbing flower is not so straightforward as it cannot be directly observed like extract that bubbles. Heating up the extract will stink up your kitchen as it releases some terps but releasing terps and destroying them are two different things. They wil be destroyed mostly when smoked using a flame when smoking. They will be altered chemically when contacting a glowing hot nail in a dabber, and they will be largely preserved and released when using a vaporizer. Terpenes will combust in the presence of a flame. THC does not combust - it boils.
As a final note, if you continue heating after ALL bubbling has stopped you can evap off excessive pinene, evidenced by a strong odor of pine. After a short cooking period at the same temp (about another thirty minutes or an hour) you will notice the odor begins to change from strong pine smell- usually about thirty minutes after decarbing ceases. This of course assumes your extract contains pinene, but all the dispensary extracts I can get do. The odor takes on a "sweet" aroma when it cooks for awhile. If you continue cooking the extract on low heat you will discover it will sweeten up. Visibile vapor seen here is mostly pinene and no thc is lost or destroyed doing this. I have grown so fond of sweetened extract that I do not vape my own medicine without doing this (or a much more complete removal using chromatography).
Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
What are you medicating for? THC-a is a stronger anti-inflammatory than THC.
Decarboxylation allows it to pass the blood brain barrier more readily, but it has access to the receptors in the rest of the body without decarboxylation.
harris hawk
Well-Known Member
Yes -if you want to feel the "effects of" Look at Wacky Willy's for a decarbonization "pot" ( they offer 4 different size's ( 1/8, 1/4. 4oz, ect)
Just moon rocks
So decarbing is not needed for smoking but would provide much stronger smoke.
Question to all is can the isopropyl be baked off or evaporated in the sun rather than on the stove? Couldn't find the method for it
eugeneoregon
Active Member
I have used much iso in processing. Iso is poisonous only when it hits levels well beyond what is in extract that you purge. Government says that 8 ounces will kill a man but likely one ounce would be nasty as hell. When we evap it is to remove just traces of that much. I have vaped extract with iso still in it and it does burn noticably but it wont kill or harm in such trace amounts. It is just harsh.
The real problem you have with iso is that it not only absorbs water like a sponge from the air but it also forms an azeotrope with the water. This means that boiling will not seperate water from iso alone. So you have water in extract when you use iso. The problem this introduces is that the water heavy residue then will sit underneath the oil because oil is lighter than water. This leads to popping through oil of the mostly water residue when it heats up and turns to gas. Not a hazard per se, but it does waste product and spatter. If you are not stirring the product continuously while on heat then it will likely do this as you get to the last bits of solvent.
Let me warn you not to "bake" iso or absolutely any flamable solvent whatsoever in the oven to remove it. The solvent will turn to gas and accumulate in the oven which is designed to hold in heat and vapor. The instant the temperature of anything in the oven reaches the flash point of the flamable gas like the electric element getting red, then if enough gas has accumulated it will indeed ignite and blow the oven door open...I know...lolz.
Here is the best way I know to purge most solvents from extract. I put my evap dish in front of a small fan so it ripples the surface (important). That very quickly evaps off most of it at room temp. Then when it is thick I place it on the stove top like explained in a post about decarbing. Same idea only with solvent stirring is mandatory if complete purge is desired. For complete purge heat it up at a temp almost too hot to pick up the dish and stiring all the time. When bubbling stops remove from heat and let cool completely. Then repeat. After about the third time it won't bubble when placed on heat anymore. The white residue that forms is from excess pinene that is slightly miscible in water and will become white in the water. Alcohols of any kind will cause pinene to disolve into water pretty well from my experience.The last bit of liquid you chase out will be mostly water and will normally be milk white from the pinene if much is present in the extract.
It is ready to vape at that point, however if time is not rushed then I have found that letting it sit overnight and coming back for one more purge over the stove and stirring will inevitably turn up just a tiny bit more solvent and boiling off this last trace makes rhe extract better imo. As a final purge, I ALWAYS take my small butane torch and chase the oil around in the dish a little bit. It will crackle and sputter a bit while the last stubborn traces of liquid are removed.
(Note that I own a vac chamber so after each heating and stirring cycle I pop it into the chamber and pull a hard vac. It makes the process much quicker but a vac chamber obviously is not necessary)
Thanks for the reply. But my question is can it be evaporated baking in the sun to completion, I have stated without the use of a stove.
I can use a fan overnight at room temps but after can this be done to completion outside?
eugeneoregon
Active Member
Without stirring and adding heat to the point that the maximum temerature azeotrope of alcohol and water boil at, and leaving it at that temperature until all solvent has been turned to gas and disapates into the air, then no, you cannot purge extract completely by just letting it sit in sunlight or otherwise. As I mentioned I have indeed vaped extract with iso in it. There is a peculiar harshness that causes a burn in my throat just above the adams apple. It is an unpleasant taste to me. A long sunlight cook might be tolerable to you.
Early on in my experiments I used a fresnel lens to heat extract emerged in water and held there by a jar to see what would happen. Focusing the fresnel lens on the extract even in water caused it to boil at the point of focus. It looked like an old time lava lamp moving around! You could employ such a lense and they are pretty cheap but you need sunlight. You can also remove big pockets of the inevitable water accumulation by stiring the extract vigorously when it is cold. It will pop the water pockets out and is kind of fun.
However without reaching the boiling temp of what it is that you want to rid the extract of then you will not succeed in purging the extract of it. This is what makes a vacuum chamber so nice - it lowers the boiling temperature of the substance so it purges at lower temperatures than just standard pressure purging will do. Good luck!
Thanks appreciate your detailed information very helpful! Will reach out for future assistance
sandhill larry
Well-Known Member
My buddy does what he calls a solar boost to any pot he gets. {bought or gifted from me. He doesn't grow} He puts it in a big plastic bag and places it in the Florida sunshine for about two to three hours. He swears it makes it better. But then he has a lot of crazy ideas.
eugeneoregon
Active Member
I appreciate why you are cautious about leaving extract out but I have had doubts for some time regarding theories about extract degrading thusly.
UV may or may not degrade any component of extract however the amount of extract that would be converted by leaving extract in the sun if indeed sunlight degrades the medicine would simply not ever be noticable. I have routinely put extract in the sun to decarb. I agree that there is at least some evidence that thc can degrade over time, or that thca could somehow be coaxed into a different form of cannabinoid through UV conversion but to be honest I have never seen in these years a peer reviewed study that has been confirmed and corroborated to prove this. These is only vague anecdotal and theoretical evidence.
So what you say may be technically accurate or may indeed come out of somebody's textbook but it really does not stand up to logic when you begin to take extract apart like in chromatography and such. Without a doubt extract is changing from the moment it is removed from the plant but "change" does not mean obviously that things are worse. As shown in the video above when decarbing in the sun that the extract dramatically changes its nature and decarbing thca is undoubtably only a single reaction that takes place. All sorts of "decomposition" must certainly be happening even though we tend to focus on decarbing thc.
With respect if you do as I have done and fallen asleep and left extract in the sun overnight and into the next day then at most what will happen that is noticable besides complete decarbing is that some of the terps will evap away. This is not good or bad, however I personally desire this. Pinene will without any doubt modulate the high to a lower level. When I remove the pinene from my extract it becomes very potent in effect, so the pinene levels which easily evaporates in sunlight interferes with potency. This would be one posssble explanation besides the obvious one for your friend noticing a potency increase with prolonged sunlight exposure, with the obvious explanation being that placing it in the sun simply decarboxylates fully.
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
I mean while in alcohol solution. As finished extract it degrades much more slowly. In alcohol it only takes about 24 hours of sunlight, if I recall. I've read that there's very little decarbing below 60 C so I guess either your extract gets that hot or the UV somehow adds enough energy to cause it. I think the degradation process in UV is THCA to THC to CBN. So if you catch it at the right stage it might work alright. Maybe THCA to THC is much faster than THC to CBN, I don't know. I guess if it's in vacuum then there would be little oxygen in there, especially if you flushed it with an inert gas before the vacuum.
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skepler
Well-Known Member
I've found that if I filter an alcohol solution with chlorophyll, and place it in the sun for ~20 minutes, most of the chlorophyll gets converted. After 2-3 QWISO washes, I let the last wash soak for 15-20 minutes, filter, treat with sunlight, and use this for baking.
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
Here's a way I saw a guy decarb some sift in a video. He put it in a vacuum sealed bag with a lot of extra room in it. Then he put the bag in boiling water. It bubbled and the bag gradually filled with the CO2 produced. By the time it was done it was like a pillow. This way no oxygen gets at it during the heating. To get the temperature a little higher you could use a pressure cooker I guess. 220 F is supposed to be good, so that's a little above normal boiling. To get it out of the bag I guess you'd have to cool it and peel the bag off. I don't know if it was normal poly bags or special boilable type. Looked normal. I couldn't find that video but here's a similar one.
vid
Here's one using a pressure cooker. No bag in this one, just a closed container. In both cases, you avoid stinking up the house like with an oven.
vid
Here's one using a pressure cooker. No bag in this one, just a closed container. In both cases, you avoid stinking up the house like with an oven.
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