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Is this a Vero 29 killer?

Discussion in 'LED and other Lighting' started by JorgeGonzales, Apr 19, 2016.

  1.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    Sooo I've been following the Vero 29/CXB3590 discussions around here for awhile now, planning my own LED light, and while researching manufacturers I found Citizen, and the CLU048-1818C4 in particular. It's their latest generation, and I focused on comparing the 4000k 80 CRI version because thats what I found in stock online.

    Here's the datasheet: http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/datasheet/en/COB_5/CLU048-1818C4_P3371_1115.pdf

    And the fun part:
    image.jpg

    They don't bin, just give minimum and typical figures like Bridgelux, but at the 1620ma test current, 52V and Tj=85C, the COB makes 12249 lumens typical, which is 145 lm/w. Isn't that nearly the same as CXB3590 CD performance?

    Looking more at the data sheets and numbers given by Bridgelux and Citizen, the Vero 29 at Tc=25C makes 10,693 lumens typical using 79.8W, vs the CLU048 at 25C making 13,392 using ~87.5W. 134 vs 153 lm/w by my math.

    Its hard to tell how well the CLU048 scales down with current since all I can do is squint and guess at their low resolution charts, but it looks like it doesnt gain as much advantage moving down in current as the Bridgelux, but its overall efficiency is so much higher it doesn't matter.

    A HLG-120H-C700B should be good for 4 COBs at ~36W each, hopefully making well over 150 lm/w. Good stuff.
     
  2.  
    kmog33

    kmog33 Well-Known Member

    Those numbers are ok at those currents. But the vero 29 and crew cxbs are more efficient.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    The Citizen CLU does seem to be more efficient than Vero and almost as efficient as CXB. Bridgelux is releasing a Vero revision in a couple months and will hit 155 LPW warm white. CXB is also getting an upgrade soon and will probably be around the 160 LPW mark.
     
    Enigma and robincnn like this.
  4.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    Yeah I was going to wait for the next generation Vero, and then saw Citizen released it's 5th generation COBs, and they looked terrific.

    I'm guessing the 155 lm/w is at Tc=25C, and Citizen is already around there at the ~80W Bridgelux tests at.

    So I think right now these are the best deal going by a longshot. In June when the new Veros come out it will be a horse race again, but since I can buy these today, Citizen wins.

    The best part is you can get a CLU048, Mechatronix 1.02 C/W heat sink, Ideal holder, Ledil adapter, and Angelina reflector for about $50 shipped from cdiweb.com. All anybody needs for a complete light except power, with no drilling required. I sound like a shill, except unfortunately they have almost no stock of anything as far as COBs and heat sinks. But the future is looking bright and cheap.

    Now I just need to figure out how many lumens these will put out at 700ma. Need to really zoom in on those charts...
     
  5.  
    kmog33

    kmog33 Well-Known Member

    I think the vero 29s are about the same if not better at that current. The 4000k are 137lpw at 2100ma. 157 at 1050ma. So on paper not really better efficiency in the 4000k citizens. [​IMG]
     
    jaa soo, Nugachino, pop22 and 2 others like this.
  6.  
    BuddyColas

    BuddyColas Well-Known Member

    So looking at Digikey, the price for a CLU048-1212 (the 12 by 12 die model) is comparable to a Vero 29. And so is the lumens per watt at comparable power. Bridgelux does outperform their spec sheet significantly on the Vero 29...just saying. A Vero 29 killer? I would say a Vero 29 competitor.

    The CLU does come in a cri 70 in the 3000K model...now that floats my boat. I think you should build a Citizen cob grow bar...show us all the pics...then grow something!:hump:
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
    robincnn likes this.
  7.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    The Citizen is 52V. You need to compare at the same power not current, and at the same temperature.
     
    DankaDank and churchhaze like this.
  8.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    The CLU048-1818 is $25 at cdiweb.com, the digikey price is more than double.
     
  9.  
    kmog33

    kmog33 Well-Known Member

    I don't agree. Lpw is lpw. It doesn't matter the voltage. So you'll be putting out more watts at the same current with lower efficiency. You don't gain efficiency by putting out more watts at a lower efficiency.
     
  10.  
    Rahz

    Rahz Well-Known Member Rollitup Advertiser

    The Citizen is a higher wattage chip, so that has to be factored in when talking about current and efficiency. The Citizen at .7 amps is putting out more LPW at only a few watts less than the Vero at 1.05.

    To really compare apples to apples the chips would need to run at the same efficiency and then compare the price per watt at same efficiency.
     
  11.  
    BuddyColas

    BuddyColas Well-Known Member

    Checked out cdiweb.com. The 12x12 model , which is very comparable to a Vero 29, is just $12.55. That is significant...basically half the price of the Vero 29 and equal performance at lower wattages. That has my attention.
     
  12.  
    BOBBY_G

    BOBBY_G Well-Known Member

    at that same wattage CD bin is 149 lm/watt. 84W is a little on the 'hot' side of where cobbers like to run them

    i think the cxbs scale down a little better in efficiency. they seem to be the leader in that
     
    ttystikk and VegasWinner like this.
  13.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    Wow you are absolutely right. That's more output at the same ~37W, and half the price. Glad I already ordered the CLU48-1818 or I probably would have talked myself into saving $100 and efficiency be damned.

    Yeah I am going to run the CLU48 at 700ma I think, which is ~36W, same as a Vero/CXB at 1050ma. No idea what the lumen output will be there.

    Hey can you explain the 149 lm/w number? I was getting awfully confused with the Cree stuff trying to compare at Tj=85C. My rough estimate was 12500lm/2.4A*36V = 147.75. I figured 12500 was average mid-bin lumens, so a semi-fair comparison.

    But the Cree PCT says its only 130lm/w at 2400ma when I plug in 85 for Tj?
    image.jpg

    I didn't understand what was going on there at all.
     
  14.  
    BOBBY_G

    BOBBY_G Well-Known Member

    i used default, 25 c or whatever
     
  15.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    Cree tests/bins at 85C, so does Citizen. Bridgelux does Tc=25C, whatever that translates to for junction temp. Who knows. Probably somebody who isn't me.

    Either way, I remain confused about the PCT.
     
  16.  
    BuddyColas

    BuddyColas Well-Known Member

    Btw the CLUs cut the cost per PAR watt in half (12 by12)...sweet! I like to run more cobs softer, so that is significant.

    Ok so your going to run the CLU48-1818 700ma. How many cobs over how much area?
     
  17.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    Yeah those 1212s are a complete steal.

    8 COBs in a 2x4 area is my plan, so one per square foot. Heat sinks should be good for 1050ma with these efficiencies, but softer floats my boat.
     
    VegasWinner likes this.
  18.  
    caretak3r

    caretak3r Well-Known Member

    and I was thinking the v22s @ $15 was a pretty good deal.... These Citizen 1212s look pretty nice.
     
  19.  
    BuddyColas

    BuddyColas Well-Known Member

    I run 8 Vero 29s in a 2x4 cabinet. I think you will be happy with the performance. Do you have a par or lux meter? Cuz after all the spec sheets, calculations etc. it comes down to photons at the canopy. So be interesting to see what kind of photons those big cobs can lay down just loafing along.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
    Hybridway likes this.
  20.  
    JorgeGonzales

    JorgeGonzales Well-Known Member

    Somewhere I do...but look what I found, a simulator from Citizen: http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/sim/CITILED_ver5_Selection_Tool_WEB.xlsx

    Straight from the horses mouth. The 1818 doesn't scale down nearly as well as the Crees. And Only a couple watt difference between the 1212 and 1818 running around 36W. Both should handily beat the pants off this generation Vero.

    It would have made more sense for me to run the 1212 at 1050ma, than the 1818 at 700ma. It's awfully good for $12.

    Still, I should see around 170 lm/w. Nothing to sneeze at.
     

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