Is this a Vero 29 killer?

I'm coming up with about 160 LPW for the 1212 at 1.05 and typical temps, which is about 50% efficient.

The 1818 is just under 170lpw at .7 amps, also 160lpw at 1.05 amps and 50% more power.

I think either one would be a good choice for building with based on the stats. As far as comparing it to the Vero 29, I would want to do some spot measurements to get a better idea of how they measure up, but based on the data sheets they are looking nice.

JorgeGonzales said:

Somewhere I do...but look what I found, a simulator from Citizen: http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/sim/CITILED_ver5_Selection_Tool_WEB.xlsx

Straight from the horses mouth. The 1818 doesn't scale down nearly as well as the Crees. And Only a couple watt difference between the 1212 and 1818 running around 36W. Both should handily beat the pants off this generation Vero.

It would have made more sense for me to run the 1212 at 1050ma, than the 1818 at 700ma. It's awfully good for $12.

Still, I should see around 170 lm/w. Nothing to sneeze at.

Click to expand...

Your 1818s will be coasting for sure. Awesome spreadsheet...thanks for sharing! Price-wise, at $12 and change, the 1212 run in the 30ish watt range is a Vero 29 killer price wise and efficiency wise, BUT the Vero 29 has a rep for being very rugged and can take a punishing and still work great! Time will tell if the Citiled cobs are that tough. Are you going to buy some holders?

JorgeGonzales said:

Somewhere I do...but look what I found, a simulator from Citizen: http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/sim/CITILED_ver5_Selection_Tool_WEB.xlsx

Straight from the horses mouth. The 1818 doesn't scale down nearly as well as the Crees. And Only a couple watt difference between the 1212 and 1818 running around 36W. Both should handily beat the pants off this generation Vero.

It would have made more sense for me to run the 1212 at 1050ma, than the 1818 at 700ma. It's awfully good for $12.

Still, I should see around 170 lm/w. Nothing to sneeze at.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that link man.

The data sheet of the 1212s says that the minimum drive current is 1080 so I guess they would need to run at least 1400? Am I reading that right?

http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/datasheet/en/COB_5/CLU048-1212C4_P3368_1115.pdf

$12 seems too good to be true.

its a good time to be a cobber

lets see cree bin us up and get into a price war with vero v3s and these citizens

its inevitable

klx said:

Thanks for that link man.

The data sheet of the 1212s says that the minimum drive current is 1080 so I guess they would need to run at least 1400? Am I reading that right?

http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/datasheet/en/COB_5/CLU048-1212C4_P3368_1115.pdf

$12 seems too good to be true.

Click to expand...

So I was looking at the 1212 in 3000K cri 70 run at 850ma (goal for me is 15 PAR watts a cob). So using their spreadsheet, I assumed a LER of 320 and a Tj of 50. So it came out to 81 cents a PAR watt! I'm impressed! And add to that many of the pin fin sinks are set up for Citizen cobs. Can't wait to see some of the builds cobbers come up with using these.

klx said:

Thanks for that link man.

The data sheet of the 1212s says that the minimum drive current is 1080 so I guess they would need to run at least 1400? Am I reading that right?

http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/datasheet/en/COB_5/CLU048-1212C4_P3368_1115.pdf

$12 seems too good to be true.

Click to expand...

naw, thats nominal, not minimum. at 500 mA your 152 lm/W/cob is 166 lm/W

so for $12 youre getting 2837 lumens @ 166 lm/W

for $40 a CD bin 3590 would get 8000 lumens @ 166 lm/W, almost 3 times as much. add in the additional cost of discrete heatsinks, soldering, mounting, etc, its kinda a wash

BOBBY_G said:

naw, thats nominal, not minimum. at 500 mA your 152 lm/W/cob is 166 lm/W

so for $12 youre getting 2837 lumens @ 166 lm/W

for $40 a CD bin 3590 would get 8000 lumens @ 166 lm/W, almost 3 times as much. add in the additional cost of discrete heatsinks, soldering, mounting, etc, its kinda a wash

Click to expand...

Where are these numbers coming from? I hesitate to quibble over datasheets, but none of these numbers seem to line up with any sources I'm aware of.

BuddyColas said:

So I was looking at the 1212 in 3000K cri 70 run at 850ma (goal for me is 15 PAR watts a cob). So using their spreadsheet, I assumed a LER of 320 and a Tj of 50. So it came out to 81 cents a PAR watt! I'm impressed! And add to that many of the pin fin sinks are set up for Citizen cobs. Can't wait to see some of the builds cobbers come up with using these.

Click to expand...

Also, reading back this post, the LER is likely ~350 not 320, so a little bit more per watt. LER is higher at 70 CRI vs 80 or 90, so best guess is:

Lets see...49.25% efficiency for 3000k 80 CRI @ 850ma
And umm 48.75% efficiency for 3000k 70 CRI @ 850ma

Using alesh's numbers of 329 LER and 352 LER respectively for the 056 series.

Actually I wonder where the 90 CRI versions land.

You can get a pretty good idea of the lumens at any particular drive current/wattage with the datasheet. Digital analysis of the current/output chart provides a closer estimate. There's also the Cree PCT.

Courtesy of SupraSPL:

JorgeGonzales said:

Somewhere I do...but look what I found, a simulator from Citizen: http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/sim/CITILED_ver5_Selection_Tool_WEB.xlsx

Straight from the horses mouth. The 1818 doesn't scale down nearly as well as the Crees. And Only a couple watt difference between the 1212 and 1818 running around 36W. Both should handily beat the pants off this generation Vero.

It would have made more sense for me to run the 1212 at 1050ma, than the 1818 at 700ma. It's awfully good for $12.

Still, I should see around 170 lm/w. Nothing to sneeze at.

Click to expand...

That little selection tool has made not only my day but my mind up about buying some 1212 very soon. Thank you Mr. Gonzales.

Cheers,
Will

Rahz said:

You can get a pretty good idea of the lumens at any particular drive current/wattage with the datasheet. Digital analysis of the current/output chart provides a closer estimate. There's also the Cree PCT.

Courtesy of SupraSPL:

View attachment 3688211

Click to expand...

Sure, that's exactly what I've been comparing with. What's funny is I digitized all the Citizen stuff, then found the simulator on their website the next day. Oops. At least the numbers lined up.

And speaking of digitizing charts, I had to look at 80 vs 90 CRI.

CLU048-1212 2700K 80 CRI


CLU048-1212 2700K 90 CRI


One cool thing about Citizen is their umol/J seems higher across the board than Cree, so they squeeze a little extra photon energy at any given efficiency vs Cree. Anyway, using the same 850ma/Tj=50C as above:

44.3% efficiency for 2700 90 CRI @ 850ma (122 lumens @ 275 LER)
47.1% efficiency for 2700 80 CRI @ 850ma (155 lumens @ 329 LER)

Looks like 80 CRI is the sweet spot, but we need a PAR-weighted spreadsheet from @alesh. I'm sure he'll have that done in no time.

Edited a bunch of shit, thanks @nogod_

Think your math is off...
Chart says 80CRI is 329LER
141lpw/329ler = 42.8%
90CRI
122lpw/275ler = 44.3%

Dont know where you are getting lpw #s for 2700K, maybe those got switched?

JorgeGonzales said:

Sure, that's exactly what I've been comparing with. What's funny is I digitized all the Citizen stuff, then found the simulator on their website the next day. Oops. At least the numbers lined up.

And speaking of digitizing charts, I had to look at 80 vs 90 CRI.

CLU048-1212 2700K 80 CRI
View attachment 3688230

CLU048-1212 2700K 90 CRI
View attachment 3688231

One cool thing about Citizen is their umol/J seems higher across the board than Cree, so they squeeze a little extra photon energy at any given efficiency vs Cree. Anyway, using the same 850ma/Tj=50C as above:

44.3% efficiency for 2700 90 CRI @ 850ma (122 lumens @ 329 LER)
47.1% efficiency for 2700 80 CRI @ 850ma (141 lumens @ 275 LER)

Looks like 80 CRI is the sweet spot, but we need a PAR-weighted spreadsheet from @alesh. I'm sure he'll have that done in no time.

Click to expand...

nogod_ said:

Think your math is off...
Chart says 80CRI is 329LER
141lpw/329ler = 42.8%
90CRI
122lpw/275ler = 44.3%

Dont know where you are getting lpw #s for 2700K, maybe those got switched?

Click to expand...

Your math looks better than mine.

Well now I have no idea what I did....OK I got it. Was off by one on the 80 CRI spreadsheet, should be 155lm/W. Goddamnit. The 141 was a typo, but the efficiencies were correct. Thanks for keeping me honest. And the LERs were switched. I really need to proofread better.

So this is correct:

44.3% efficiency for 2700 90 CRI @ 850ma (122 lumens @ 275 LER)
47.1% efficiency for 2700 80 CRI @ 850ma (155 lumens @ 329 LER)

So if we run them at 850ma we get 30w from each 1212 ?
And they cost 12$ ? That sounds pretty good maybe we can make a 300w grow led light for like 400$

optzulu said:

So if we run them at 850ma we get 30w from each 1212 ?
And they cost 12$ ? That sounds pretty good maybe we can make a 300w grow led light for like 400$

Click to expand...

Easily under $300, but good luck getting ahold of cobs. That is if you trust my math skills. I don't!

Well I don't think your math is wrong it just depends from where you getting your info, that said how do you come with a price under 300$ for a 300watt fixture heatsinks + a good driver is like 250$.

What do you mean with good luck getting ahold? You mean they are hard to get ?
I am from the EU btw

JorgeGonzales said:

Where are these numbers coming from? I hesitate to quibble over datasheets, but none of these numbers seem to line up with any sources I'm aware of.

Click to expand...

ok ill review my math

datasheet from this product:
https://www.cdiweb.com/PortalProductDetail.aspx?ProdId=585062

im using 3500K to be able to compare (roughly) with 3590 CD bin. you can also do the math on 4000K citi but make sure to compare it with DB bin cree

from page 6
500 mA= 34V = 17W
500 mA= 50% relative flux

from page 1, 5674 typ lumens for 3500K 80 cri
50% of 5674 lumens is 2837 lumens
2837 lumens/17W = 166 lm/W

cree data is from PCT, i dunno where i got 8000 lumens at 166 lm/W as i see more than that, but temp droop will vary

call CD bin 8000-9000 lumens @166 lm/W depending on temp droop. Tj of 39 in PCT seems to correlate with the midpoint of 12500 for CD bin @ 2.4A, 85C Tj (same conditions citi states)

optzulu said:

Well I don't think your math is wrong it just depends from where you getting your info, that said how do you come with a price under 300$ for a 300watt fixture heatsinks + a good driver is like 250$.

What do you mean with good luck getting ahold? You mean they are hard to get ?
I am from the EU btw

Click to expand...

Yeah, they can be hard to find, at least in the US.

HLG-320 $104
6x CLU1212 $75
6x Heatsinks $75 https://www.cdiweb.com/ProductDetail/MODULEDMEGA13450B-mechatronix/574064/
$? rest of the crap

Anyway, somewhere in that neighborhood.

You might like this https://www.rollitup.org/t/cheap-and-cheerful-diy-using-citizen-cobs.909460/

I did spend $400, but I used $25 Citizens. And somebody corrected my math there too!

@BOBBY_G If you have to compare at Tj=39 to make the PCT say what you want, there is something seriously wrong with the PCT. Now I know that @SupraSPL says that it's because Tj is actually mislabeled, and is Tc, which if it's true means Cree has pretty terrible thermal resistance, plus they don't report current droop right, plus they under report lumens, not to mention they don't fix bugs.

This is why we need integrating sphere testing.

By the way, your 166lm/W @ 85C was spot on, but sort of pure luck. It's 2712lm/16.3W/32.6V. Eyeballing charts is just impossible.

Anyway, fuck that noise. The PCT is untrustworthy, or Supra is. If we can agree that the SupraSPL datasheet is correct, and Citizen's simulator is correct, it gets really easy to compare. And sort of fun.

For instance if you run 2x CLU048-1212, you get about 155lm/W at 6568 lumens. The exact same 13137 lumen output as a single CXB3590 at 2.4A, for $25. If you use a monolithic heatsink, the costs for cooling are identical, and I would argue in this case the cost to cool one cob at 87W is about the same as two cobs at 42W. Heatsinks just scale up with weight, basically.

At 500ma, I have no idea, you are probably right. I just thought the numbers were a little wonky. As in, not agreeing with the PCT at Tj=85C, or Supra's spreadsheets, or the Citizen datasheets.

But lets look at it at 50C, which is an easy number to hit at 500ma. CLU048-1212 makes 175lm/W at 500ma. Cree makes ummm...178lm/W at 1.5ma drawing a straight line between 1.4ma and 2.1ma. Equal costs, same efficiency (Citizen slightly ahead in umol/J), 3x the spread. You are probably right if you did individual heatsinks the Citizen solution would cost more, but probably not much. An extruded solution like heatsinkusa would cost the same regardless of number of cobs. Labor is higher, but people love that spread, yo.

This is way too long. But it was fun to do the math. At higher Cree currents, a couple $12 Citizens pull ahead. That's pretty cool. And it's a horse race at 500ma vs 1.5A.

For everybody's future reference here is the Supra spreadsheet:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nKfc12OCuDu7puJCa_6maefyCVm3gS5sBmzAXOlh06w/edit#gid=1157681753

And the Citizen simulator:
http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/dl_data/sim/CITILED_ver5_Selection_Tool_WEB.xlsx