Keep em green?

Jeffro420 said:

I use a 3 part base nutrient. Usually around week 4 or 5 I start to lower my grow and add a little more bloom. Should I keep using the equal amounts of grow micro and Bloom till the end? Would that lead to greener leaves for a longer period?

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MichiganMedGrower said:

I thought you were saying that genetic code changed in your growroom.

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MichiganMedGrower said:

I guess I have to disagree. I have my own s-1 seeds and all seeds have not grown the same plant as the mother. Nor did I expect they would.

And I don't have the PDF in my phone or the time to re read the chapter now but I am pretty sure that the genetic variance is explained in Clarks Marijuana Botany. For a source anyway.

I never once read what you suggest until I got to the rm3 site. (Not saying that is where you learned this.) I didn't even know it was a belief. A seed is not a clone.

As far as IBL breeding. I am only saying a limited opinion from smoking IBL weed. I have no experience with breeding. I understand your example and will have to learn further

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Dr. Who said:

No, no...Glad we could clear that up!



As far as the S1 thing goes....Man I get bombarded by folks saying that my claim of "no guarantee of 100% females in S1 seeds" is bogus, simply by the genetic mirror thing! One of my comebacks is "Hey, sometimes nature finds a way"! Chaos theory right!

So maybe ... but, I sure see genetic mirroring in all my S1's......No, I've held that line for years before Riddle's site.....
I have not been a total fan of Clark's "assumptions" found in parts of his work (opinion).....But you've motivated me to dig that out and see what your reading.... I wonder if he's confusiinnggg.....Nope, never mind I'll read that later and see what he's saying...

In the end it would be a simple personal disagreement...eh?

Very delightful discussion though.....

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MichiganMedGrower said:

Have to learn to read the plants. And give them what they are asking for. If the middle and upper leaves are yellowing the plant wants K. If the lower leaves are yellowing N. And so forth. Not quite that simple of course.

You also need to know what is in the 3 parts to know what ratio to give them. I found that a 1 part general grow fertilizer makes this easier. For potting soil anyway it works. Then you can focus on how much they need at first when it is most confusing.

I started with Botanicare kind trio but switched to pure blend pro grow and it was less confusing to learn the plants.

Now I know when to add what they need after a few years of practice.

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Dr. Who said:

Interesting take on the change from KIND to Pure Blend.....Around me most are going to the KIND from the Pro and/or other things!

I actually like the ratio's in Kind over the Pro......Just goes to show that inherent difference in how people learn....To follow what the plant says.

I just a got a dbl qt set of KIND to test, from a rep....
I remember the year it came out and a group of us went to the CO and MI shows.....I must a had a cpl a gallons of each. An employee of mine asked for it and said sure...Now everyone is going Ga-Ga over her grows sense I gave her that after the raid......They are pretty and I'm so impressed, that I asked the local rep for some.

May not get to it for a while as I have-ta get my rotation rolling again first....

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MichiganMedGrower said:

Now I want to know all about this and I haven't moved on to making seeds or collecting pollen yet.

All I know is I have grown different phenos from the same seeds from the same lower bud of a female flower. With no signs of male flowers anywhere.

Well except hidden in the plant that self pollinated.

Got any good links to read about this Doc?

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MichiganMedGrower said:

Kind is a great system. Just not for a new grower in my opinion. It does have a forgiving bloom ratio and seaweed included. And if you know what you are doing with the calcium nitrate in the base bottle alone you can really dial in. But it only has nitrate and I need ammonium to balance my well water. And I don't like adding acids rather than choosing a fertilizer that works with my water and medium.

I think I could use anything at this point. Well as long as it was complete enough.

I actually have just added sweet raw to try in my garden. I think it can eliminate the minor mag and maybe potassium stress in stretch and during stacking.

Of course I went to the only pure blend pro gro partly to make the learning curve easier on Mrs. MedGrower and now I am adding stuff again. Lol.

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Dr. Who said:

Well, first off. Seeds from a stress banana,,,,will show some variation! They're not stable! That was found out pretty quick after that first method of "selfing" was used!

Now when you "attitude adjust" the hormone's with a chemical method....You get real stable genetic's due too the plant making actual male sex organs's and that's more where the "mirror" came in....

Um, papers I suggest you google "Genetic stability in "selfed" plants". You click on the first choice and it opens up the "Scohlor" sub section of google and lists papers. You have to search - worded like a paper to open up that sub section of google

In case you don't get that....He's the result I get in the scholor section of google.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=genetic+stability+in+selfed+seeds&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTl4uqt9HRAhUY9mMKHSIFBO0QgQMIHzAA

The fun part is. If you haven't been to college and studied. You can pull all sorts of theory on it....
For the most part. It's the way/how the plant is selfed, that has the determining stability of the seeds produced!

See the way the page is headed? Different section of google....I use it lazy....I bookmarked an in road link, and just fill in my search from inside there....

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MichiganMedGrower said:

I will research. But my breeder disagrees with you on this and he is one of the guys who pioneered sts use and has been featured in skunk magazine for feminized seeds.

He expects different phenos he said.

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HOLY SHIT!!!

Phone calls! Texting!, coffee meetings! As if I don't have enough to do! World is spinning, head is spinning,,,,,now I need to get out a bong to get everything to spin the other way and equalize it's self!!!!!
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Headadead said:

Elaine: You wanted to see me, Mr. Lippman?

Lippman: I was just going over the Jake Jarmel book and I understand you worked with him very closely.

Elaine: Yes, krhm, yes I did.

Lippman: And, anyway I was just reading your final edit, um, there seems to be an inordinate number of exclamation points.

Elaine: Well, I felt that the writing lacked certain emotion and intensity.

Lippman: Oh, "It was damp and chilly afternoon, so I decided to put on my sweatshirt!"

Elaine: Right, well...

Lippman: You put exclamation point after sweatshirt?

Elaine: That's that's correct, I-I felt that the character doesn't like to be ch-ch-chilly...

Lippman: I see, "I pulled the lever on the machine, but the Clark bar didn't come out!" Exclamation point?

Elaine: Well, yeah, you know how frustrating that can be when you keep putting quarters and quarters in to machine and then *prrt* nothing comes out...

Lippman: Get rid of the exclamation points...

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Dr. Who said:

We each have our belief...... I don't see it in mine.....not that I do whole plants, much less rooms full.....But,,,
Been doing it about as long as your boy....Still, technically....They are genetic mirrors. No new genetic material is introduced, so no genetic shift is happening! Being in a magazine has no change in my looking at anyone! I know many far better that have never been. (No reference to your friend intended!)
I also believe that hands on experience is great! But if science say's one thing and the do'er says another....."I" have to see that "contrary to science" myself......I don't see it in mine, say,,, HOLY SHIT!!! I just thought of a time it did happen to me! 2 specific pheno's from an S1 project I ran!!! Limited run - STS (built my way) about (gone for a log book).....112 seeds was the yield. I popped the lot and had 4 different plants run like each other over the 108 others that were "just like mom"....Those 4 were shorter with wider leaves and a "half dome" plant shape over the Pine tree shaped sisters, with longer thinner leaves....Notes go on to say that the "Norms" were more skunky and sweet to the "bush" plants being lemony and pinesol like. Taste followed the same lines and the "oddballs" were better in potency. Each had the same "style" buzz with the oddballs lasting longer...
Bud structure was very long and connected on the tall plants, with the bush plants being smaller and having longer node spacing.. This was on a Skunk 1 X Romulan pheno I liked....Hmm 4 very Romulan type plants.

Well then. This run (log book open in front of me) points out to my mind that what I think now, may not be so true!

MORE research is called for here! (he says while swinging hands around like an Italian talking, and bouncing off walls looking for an old book)

See what you've done here! Even though it was more then a 1:25 ratio.....It was there!
Oh, now I'm going to obsess on this for days.....CDO in overdrive now!!! Phone calls! Texting!, coffee meetings! As if I don't have enough to do! World is spinning, head is spinning,,,,,now I need to get out a bong to get everything to spin the other way and equalize it's self!!!!!
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Better now.

Guess I'll be doing some more closer looking at your point....

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Dr. Who said:

Cry baby English major on pot! GREAT! Just what this site needs!w!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another one with nothing to say on the subject of the thread! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Hows this for you you know no punctuation at all new thoughts simply flowing together with no structure no order no new paragraph does this bother you no capitol to signal even a sentence change your point of contentions is self satisfying eh most of us have no problem with expressing excitement why does this bother you so much a simple exclamation point well here's one more! TTFN!

Oh look I lied there was more then one! Now another! and another! and another! boy this could go on a long time!

Now you have cheese to go with your whine! (damn, he spelled it right!)

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Kingrow1 said:

I have a lot to say on the subject, some disagreements/agreements on self seeds, keeping it green and a few other topics brought up here but i feel somewhat deflated from discussing stuff over the years and less inclined to form opinions. A lot of this stuff is debatable to a certain point and male plants from female crosses/hermies is not yet a citeable fact.

Some leeway must be given to certain subjects i think. Anyway not to butt in just followed the thread and finally had enough energy to type a post

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Kingrow1 said:

I have a lot to say on the subject, some disagreements/agreements on self seeds, keeping it green and a few other topics brought up here but i feel somewhat deflated from discussing stuff over the years and less inclined to form opinions. A lot of this stuff is debatable to a certain point and male plants from female crosses/hermies is not yet a citeable fact.

Some leeway must be given to certain subjects i think. Anyway not to butt in just followed the thread and finally had enough energy to type a post

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Dr. Who said:

I certainly understand your reluctance to jump in. Over the years, you get tired of what can best be described as flat out attacks on opinions we share.

Please feel free to join in and neither of us will "attack", if you like!

The males from S1 seeds is a simple from experience observation......I had doubts on some breeders claims of that "No guarantee" thing myself. Till I got one out of a set of my own..So that's why I go there, with that comment/opinion on them.

Nice of you to share what you have anyway...

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Kingrow1 said:

I dont doubt it is possible to get a male from S1 seeds but the weight of evidence is far too small to be fact just yet, technically i would disagree with this point not wether it is possible.

Some plant species have the right genetics to allow this although the list is slim, some mutations can occur to futher the development of this in a species but weed is not somthing thats been studied in this area and even the hermie application is still, as yet a mystery. Breeding depression is the result of inbreeding in most species, weed and others are highly tollerant but again this could be a cause and genetic ratios might make it very uncommon.

To the thread and keeping plants green till the end, we run better conditions than mother nature, id expect reasonably green plants at harvest, yellowing leaves too early on is more a sign of problems not the plant slow down plus we avoid the harsh end of season conditions so an indoor plant should be a lot greener than an outdoor one.

I personally always work towards keeping a plant grern, chop off all the fan leaves half way through flowering and youll loose a fair bit on the final yeild.

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MichiganMedGrower said:

Thank you for adding this.

I am also skeptical of the male plant coming from a female only genetic seed. There would be be no male chromosome if she self pollinated. (Not saying it did not happen)

Any male would be the result of a true "hermie" which I can only find opinion about as it seems genetically impossible.

About the s-1 seed being identical like a clone of the mother. I just have not actually read or seen this theory except in forums. I think different pheno typical information may be stored in the genetics and come out in a few different ways. Like only a few variations will appear at this point.

But maybe there was cross pollination you did not see with the male selfed plant @Dr. Who ?

As far as green to the end. I actually don't like when people compare my mostly natural grow to nature. I am not trying to copy nature. I am trying to improve on it like Kingrow mentioned.

Nature is not stable like a professional growroom and most of the negatives that affect the plants outside do not exist in a good growroom. So the quality can be higher than outside in every way.

I do believe we can't copy the sun. But it is mostly root space that makes an outdoor plant grow to its potential more than inside. And the long grow cycle. But maybe we are missing something inside like something in real sunlight to limit our success.

But they are obviously happier in my growroom than my friends open roof greenhouse even if he gets a quarter or half pound more per plant.

And they always taste good from his yard but mine is always much more potent. I will compare my own in and outside pot one of these seasons soon.

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Kingrow1 said:

A plant operates a complex source to sink relationship from birth to death, 'keep em green' would imply that all leaves still operate as sources. As soon as a leaf becomes a sink or drain on the plant it is triggered to drop it, unproductivity is simply not tolerated. A source will supply the nearest sinks, an energy demanding bud would not drop its closest leaves whilst leaving those on less energy demanding buds (he says theoretically).

All this is great but being here a while you notice a big trend in that the best grows are a lot more greener upon harvest than your more not so great grows. Thats my main reason for trying to 'keep em green' and emulate some of the better grows, i feel some think they dont need to be so green but they have underlying problems they dont want to admit or wont see.

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MichiganMedGrower said:

Agreed.

I do think there is a "too green" at the end. I like to see the natural fall colors if a plant seems to insist.

And I think the problem in understanding. (Because I know of no food, flower or herb production that is faded) is that our nute systems all have a bloom component even if they are not for water culture and those high PK products yellow, burn and kill the plant too quickly. And most grows we see show exactly that for results. Even burned bud leaves meaning it has gone on for some time.

But like you say. With experience we learn and it seems that the best grows flower longer than the beginner grows. And better.

Mine have for sure. I can't get a plant finished before 10 or 11 weeks to my liking now.

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