Langbeinite...Any alternatives?

PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
Hi All,

I'm in the process of mixing my own soil for my next grow.

I'm trying to follow @Rasta Roy no cook recipe as closely as possible. However I've run into one problem... I can't find Langbeinite anywhere locally. What are my best alternatives? Soft rock phosphate?

Thanks all!

Peace and Happiness for 2018
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
negative on the SRP (no potassium). i use greensand for my K needs but that requires time for breakdown more so than langbenite. not sure there are any immediate substitutes out there. langbenite is like 0-0-23 or something if i remember correctly. you need something with potassium (it also contains Mg, and S if memory serves me correctly)

regular applications of kelp as a topdress may solve your needs for the time being, but not sure if that will be strong enough to go through flower with no K def.

if you can find a "bloom mix" organic fertilizer blend with an NPK of (low-high-middle) for values, you can topdress that at week 1 of flower and it will slowly break down through the flowering cycle. that's what i do, and i increased my yields significantly since doing so!
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
Ok this one is a biggie... by any chance is there an alternative for neem cake/ seed meal. Only have access neem oil here.
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Not really. The only real alternative is Karanja, but it's almost always both or neither AFA availability. Gonna have to bite the bullet on this one. Good news is, you really don't need a bunch to reap the benefits, a 1/2cup/cf will take care of that. Using it as a N source can get spendy though. VOE there.

AFA the Langbenite I've always viewed it as the alternative rather than a primary source. For K, I depend on kelp meal, greensand, and comfrey. The comfrey and greensand are run through the worm bin first as is some of the kelp. Some in the mix, most through top dressings.

The Mag is supplied from the dolomite lime. When fresh an application of Epsom may be needed as the mag in the dolo is slow to release.

The sulfur comes mostly from gypsum, which is also a great Ca source, both in the mix and occasional top dressing.

Not a fanatic, but I like to keep my numbers (N-P-K, etc), under 10. Just seems to avoid a lot of problems, especially if you're a "handful at a time" kinda guy like I am.

None of this is fast and some of it is really slow, but once the soil is 'aged' and everything is available it gets kinda boring, just watering. Ask ShLUbY about older mixes.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
Ok this one is a biggie... by any chance is there an alternative for neem cake/ seed meal. Only have access neem oil here.
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sadly, not that has the same kind of properties that the neem plant does. are you trying to be as discrete as possible? i mean its just an organic fertilizer, you can order them online no problem from amazon
 
PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
Wetdog said:
Not really. The only real alternative is Karanja, but it's almost always both or neither AFA availability. Gonna have to bite the bullet on this one. Good news is, you really don't need a bunch to reap the benefits, a 1/2cup/cf will take care of that. Using it as a N source can get spendy though. VOE there.

AFA the Langbenite I've always viewed it as the alternative rather than a primary source. For K, I depend on kelp meal, greensand, and comfrey. The comfrey and greensand are run through the worm bin first as is some of the kelp. Some in the mix, most through top dressings.

The Mag is supplied from the dolomite lime. When fresh an application of Epsom may be needed as the mag in the dolo is slow to release.

The sulfur comes mostly from gypsum, which is also a great Ca source, both in the mix and occasional top dressing.

Not a fanatic, but I like to keep my numbers (N-P-K, etc), under 10. Just seems to avoid a lot of problems, especially if you're a "handful at a time" kinda guy like I am.

None of this is fast and some of it is really slow, but once the soil is 'aged' and everything is available it gets kinda boring, just watering. Ask ShLUbY about older mixes.
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@Wetdog thank you for this insightful, useful and detailed knowledge. I can get my hands on plenty of kelp meal easily. I can't get greensand however. I'll look into comfrey.

ShLUbY said:
sadly, not that has the same kind of properties that the neem plant does. are you trying to be as discrete as possible? i mean its just an organic fertilizer, you can order them online no problem from amazon
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Hey @ShLUbY, thanks again for the advice. No being discreet isn't my worry, just sadly due to my location any international post is really expensive, after customs taxes and shipping costs the amount of amendment I'm getting is minimal compared to costs involved. And that's if it even makes it to me!:wall:

If by any chances you guys or anyone with a experienced knowledge on organic soils has some time and is willing to suggest a ingredient list that I can use off these two sites I'll be forever grateful:hump::peace:

http://www.jamiesgardenshop.co.za
https://www.organicsmatter.co.za/product-category/organic-gardening/soil-amendments/

These are my only two organic stores in my whole country lol.

Neither of these sites supply oyster shell powder but I found it stocked at a local racing pigeon club store:bigjoint: I have also tried that "Jamie's super soil" he sells but it was really not good and I struggled with my ladies. I also can get my hands on insect frass.

I know I have asked for a lot but to anyone giving me their time I'm internally grateful.

Peace
 
PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
Just emailed an American online store called "kelp4less" and have enquired how much shipping costs would be for 15lbs of neem cake would be:spew:
Will report back
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
@Wetdog thank you for this insightful, useful and detailed knowledge. I can get my hands on plenty of kelp meal easily. I can't get greensand however. I'll look into comfrey.



Hey @ShLUbY, thanks again for the advice. No being discreet isn't my worry, just sadly due to my location any international post is really expensive, after customs taxes and shipping costs the amount of amendment I'm getting is minimal compared to costs involved. And that's if it even makes it to me!:wall:

If by any chances you guys or anyone with a experienced knowledge on organic soils has some time and is willing to suggest a ingredient list that I can use off these two sites I'll be forever grateful:hump::peace:

http://www.jamiesgardenshop.co.za
https://www.organicsmatter.co.za/product-category/organic-gardening/soil-amendments/

These are my only two organic stores in my whole country lol.

Neither of these sites supply oyster shell powder but I found it stocked at a local racing pigeon club store:bigjoint: I have also tried that "Jamie's super soil" he sells but it was really not good and I struggled with my ladies. I also can get my hands on insect frass.

I know I have asked for a lot but to anyone giving me their time I'm internally grateful.

Peace
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well insect frass is a great amendment for your soil, and can be applied as a topdress as a topdress in flower. generally has a pretty even NPK, at 2-2-2 (that's what the one i buy is stated at)

also, if you live in an area that sells bananas, the peels are great sources of potassium. you can just dry the peels, and then break them down into a more mealy product, and then use those in your soils as well.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
Got a reply back.from "kelp4less" to ship 10lbs of neem cake and 5lbs of fulvic acid it will cost $480 lol.
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LOL damn that is a drag!!! i mean, it's not the end of the world man. you'll just have to substitute for something else. as long as you're meeting your nutritional needs for the plant, it really doesn't matter what you're putting in the soil as far as organic amendments goes.

so do you not have access to say an all purpose premixed organic fertilizer? cause that would solve a lot of your searching. then all you would need is the insect frass, some rock dust, and a few other odds and ends like oystershell or some other kind of liming agent for peat based mix.
 
PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
ShLUbY said:
LOL damn that is a drag!!! i mean, it's not the end of the world man. you'll just have to substitute for something else. as long as you're meeting your nutritional needs for the plant, it really doesn't matter what you're putting in the soil as far as organic amendments goes.

so do you not have access to say an all purpose premixed organic fertilizer? cause that would solve a lot of your searching. then all you would need is the insect frass, some rock dust, and a few other odds and ends like oystershell or some other kind of liming agent for peat based mix.
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Only a composts available locally here is a local compost made at a mushroom factory near me, and vermicompost.

Other than that my only selection of amendments are off the local online store I linked earlier.

@ShLUbY thank you so much for this help so far!
 
PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
In terms of all purpose general composts there's only a mass produced one that contains more sticks than anything else.
 
DonTesla

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
definitely get the frass, its your chitin source, your source for terps, your fungals, bene bacterias, and so much more... did I mention amazing immune systems..

as for the meal delay... what about nettles, comfrey, borage and dandelions, do you have outdoor space by chance!

Jamie does have kelp. Myco. Biochar. bokashi. And since they carry food grade DE powder, I would ask them if they can bring in non crushed, diatomite, cause its a premium aeration, but the powder is clogging.. I never use it, but love the rocks

The other place has vermicompo, rock dust, gypsum, and SRP, so you're almost there!!
 
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PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
@DonTesla thank you for your knowledge!

Yes I have plenty of outdoor space, do you recommend I start growing comfrey and nettles to make fertilizer?

From what I gather from your post this is what I'm looking at for a soil:-

1. 15% Peat Moss
2. 35% Perlite
3. 50% Composted Matter (Vermi, Comfrey/Nettle, Mushroom Fertilizer)?

1/2 Cup Insect Frass per cubic foot
1/2 Cup Gypsum per cubic foot
1/2 Cup Kelp Meal per cubic foot
1/4 Cup Alfalfa Meal per cubic foot
1/4 Cup Oyster shell flour per cubic foot
1/2 Cup Fish Meal per cubic foot

How much biochar and rock dust should be added? I have purchased mucky from him already so I have that. I will enquire about the diominite.

I can also get my hands on blood meal?

Thanks everyone for the knowledge and support!
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
@DonTesla thank you for your knowledge!

Yes I have plenty of outdoor space, do you recommend I start growing comfrey and nettles to make fertilizer?

From what I gather from your post this is what I'm looking at for a soil:-

1. 15% Peat Moss
2. 35% Perlite
3. 50% Composted Matter (Vermi, Comfrey/Nettle, Mushroom Fertilizer)?

1/2 Cup Insect Frass per cubic foot
1/2 Cup Gypsum per cubic foot
1/2 Cup Kelp Meal per cubic foot
1/4 Cup Alfalfa Meal per cubic foot
1/4 Cup Oyster shell flour per cubic foot
1/2 Cup Fish Meal per cubic foot

How much biochar and rock dust should be added? I have purchased mucky from him already so I have that. I will enquire about the diominite.

I can also get my hands on blood meal?

Thanks everyone for the knowledge and support!
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blood meal is less desired. its quite soluble, does not last long in the soil, and is kinda something you dont want to be around and breathing in if you know what i mean ;) . not that you wanna breath any of this stuff in... but i avoid things like that at all cost... plus, you have plenty of nitrogen in your ingredient list right now, you don't need blood meal too.
 
PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
ShLUbY said:
blood meal is less desired. its quite soluble, does not last long in the soil, and is kinda something you dont want to be around and breathing in if you know what i mean ;) . not that you wanna breath any of this stuff in... but i avoid things like that at all cost... plus, you have plenty of nitrogen in your ingredient list right now, you don't need blood meal too.
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Thanks @ShLUbY, from what you can see am I missing anything significant.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
@DonTesla thank you for your knowledge!

Yes I have plenty of outdoor space, do you recommend I start growing comfrey and nettles to make fertilizer?

From what I gather from your post this is what I'm looking at for a soil:-

1. 15% Peat Moss . I would do more like 25%
2. 35% Perlite . 45% for aeration
3. 50% Composted Matter (Vermi, Comfrey/Nettle, Mushroom Fertilizer)? I would only use the vermicompost @ 30% if the mushroom compost (you said fertilizer for some reason?????) is a cheap bagged product from a big box store (if those exist where you are!). If you know for sure it's a quality product, then i would go like 15% VS and 15% mushroom compost.
NPK BREAKDOWNS
1/2 Cup Insect Frass per cubic foot 2-2-2
1/2 Cup Gypsum per cubic foot 0-0-0 but great for Ca and S
1/2 Cup Kelp Meal per cubic foot 1-0-1 (and lots of other micronutes and enzymes)
1/4 Cup Alfalfa Meal per cubic foot 2.5-0.5-2.5
1/4 Cup Oyster shell flour per cubic foot 0-0-0 (liming agent so that's good)
1/2 Cup Fish Meal per cubic foot 8-6-0

How much biochar and rock dust should be added? I have purchased mucky from him already so I have that. I will enquire about the diominite. Biochar up to 5% of the mix i believe? Rock dusts at 3-4 cups per cu. ft.

you need a source of potassium for flowering, and to be honest, i'm not sure your nutrient profile is completely met with these ingredients. unsure if you have enough Mg in the mix (if you can get some dolomite lime that might help you more than the oyster shell flower because it contains Ca and Mg). I'd have to look further into the specifics.

comfrey, borage, nettle, and dandelion would probably get you where you need to be in terms of full nutrient scale.
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notes are in blue in the quote
 
PuffAdder

PuffAdder

Member
ShLUbY said:
notes are in blue in the quote
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@ShLUbY I don't know what to say but WOW and THANK YOU! Your knowledge is helping me more than you can imagine!

As for dolomite lime that is easily accessible to me. What would be my measurements to add per cubic foot? If that settles Mg and Cal, I'm left with is Potassium. Until I get my dandilion,borage, nettle and comfrey garden would I be safe with just using a bloom fertilizer on the first week of flower to get me through the harvest?

Again thank you so much
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
PuffAdder said:
@ShLUbY I don't know what to say but WOW and THANK YOU! Your knowledge is helping me more than you can imagine!

As for dolomite lime that is easily accessible to me. What would be my measurements to add per cubic foot? If that settles Mg and Cal, I'm left with is Potassium. Until I get my dandilion,borage, nettle and comfrey garden would I be safe with just using a bloom fertilizer on the first week of flower to get me through the harvest?

Again thank you so much
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depends on what that bloom fertilizer is...... the stuff i use is a dry amendment "organic" (because we all know minerals containing no carbon are not technically organic) with an npk of 3-7-4. I mix about 1/4-1/3 cup with a enough compost to build a one inch layer on the top of the soil, and then cover it with mulch, and water it in. this gets me allllllll the way through bloom because my initial base mix is not that heavy in potassium, and i use greensand which takes a long time to break down and breaks down slowly at that.

what did you have in mind?

also dolomite can be applied at the 1/2 cup per cubic foot rate as well. or you could split oyster shell and dolomite at 1/4 cup of each for some added diversity.
 
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