LED Panel F-Series GEN 3 or Bridgelux EB Series Gen 2

O

overdriver

Member
I posted this in the Quantum boards thread but want to start a new thread for my panel build:

So I'm about to buy some LED stripes.
It is supposed to be used for flower only.
The space is 3.3 x 6 ft. So 19.8 ft²

My favorites are:

samsung f-series gen3
SI-B8U521B20WW

or

EB Series Gen 2
BXEB-L1120Z-35E4000-C-B3

I was thinking of buying 10 of those samsung stripes and running them @450 W.
so that means 46v and 1A for each stripe.
In total they have 1440 LED.

I guess they are not S6 binning like the quantum boards from HLG but S4.
How big is this difference in real world use? at 50% power it seems to be a difference of arround 11% in lumen output. Quite a number but:
The stripes would be more distributed on the space and have more single LED as an lightsource than the Quantum boards. So might this compensate for the worse binning?

In COB threads its all about 1 COB for 1 sqft.
Is this still the better solution?
Is there any data showing that the narrow space of a Quantum board is superior to distributed COB or stripes with S4 binning?

Im also having a hard time finding some data for comparison between Quantum boards vs Stripes vs COB.
Did anyone ever tested this? @CobKits maybe?

Now I also discovered the Bridgelux EB Series Gen 2

One stripe only have 114 LED instead of Samsungs 144, but with the cheaper price I could purchase more of them.
For the same price (little less actually) I could buy 15 Bridgelux Stripes.
In total 1710 LED.
So even more then Samsung with more distribution.
They are slightly less efficient but maybe more LED + wider distribution will get better results?

Basically I just want to know how to build the best bang in the buck panel with good results.
Hard to find any real use case data out there, just a lot of theory :(

Electricity is very expensive here were I live so better efficiency makes a lot of difference.
But how much more yield will I get with (for example) with 10 of those bridgelux stripes and 15 or Quantum boards ?
Does it justify the greater investement?
 
ANC

ANC

Well-Known Member
Samsung boards are S6. You have to look at what you are planning to work out potential savings.

I compared 3 to 4 double row strips to my 320W drivers. And it would basically take a year long, back to back flowering, to make back the money of the extra strip in power savings for me. Me, I'd rather run them a little hotter and cover more floor space. in a year's time, the strips will have paid for additions.

The competitor price points are really good, I think either product will be a good choice and a step up from HPS.
 
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GrowLightResearch

GrowLightResearch

Well-Known Member
overdriver said:
Now I also discovered the Bridgelux EB Series Gen 2
Click to expand...
The difference between the Samsung F-Series and Bridgelux Gen2 strips is negligible.
I bought samples of both. I went with 14 of the BX Gen2 because they ran cooler even at 1400mA.

The BX Gen2 are in short supply. Arrow is the only one with stock now and they raised the price from $7 to $12 for the 560mm (22") strips I bought.

@nfhiggs did a good analysis of the two strips:

nfhiggs said:
The $26 Samsung strips (all of them) are 144 diode strips rated for ~8800 lumens. The Bridgelux strips are 112 diode strips rated for ~4700 lumens. That works out to per lumen cost of .301 cents per lumen for Samsung vs .308 cents per lumen for Bridgelux - close enough to be a wash, but favoring Samsung slightly. Also consider the currents at which they are rated. Bridgelux rated test current is 50% of their given max current. Samsung's rated test current (125 mA per diode) is 62.5% of the LM561C's published max current of 200 mA. Running them at 25% lower current will equal or exceed the Bridgelux lm/W rating.

When you dig a little deeper than the cost per strip and the published lm/W ratings, it becomes obvious that neither one is heads above the other in either initial cost or running cost. Both are excellent products of literally equal value and cost to run.
Click to expand...
This was when the BX Gen2 were readily available.

$14 / 4780 lm = 0.0023 @ 700 mA x 39v = 27.3w = 175/W
$26.50 / 8800 lm = 0.0030 @ 1120 mA @ 46v = 51.52w = 170 lm/W
 
O

overdriver

Member
@GrowLightResearch

The price is back to 7$ isnt it?

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/bxeb-l0560z-35e2000-c-b3/bridgelux

@ANC The Quantumboards from HLG are S6, yes
But what about the stripes? I cant find any information what bin they are using.
But if we take the lm/w at the specific voltage and ampere from the digikey website and enter those to the samsung calculator, only the S4 bin are matching.

How exactly did you calculate how much yield you'll get from 1 strip more? Also the electricity is very expensive where I live, maybe for me it will pay back sooner?



So basically I'm looking for something like the 1 COB per sqft solution from growmau5.

I found this video:

it says a plant with 800 PPFD got 51% more yield than a plant with 600 PPFD.

The question now is. How many LM561C LED (from f-series strip) do I need per sqft to get 800 PPFD? Or how many BX Gen2?
 
wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
overdriver said:
Also the electricity is very expensive where I live, maybe for me it will pay back sooner?
Click to expand...
Yes, the higher the kWh price, the softer you should run the leds for best return on investment.

For instance I pay 0.23 per kWh which makes the economically optimal current around 1050mA. When you pay 0.40 per kWh, it would be best to go for 700mA.
 
V

Viceman666

Well-Known Member
About 700-750w of cob/qb/strips seems to be about the number to get 800+ par for a 4x4 grow tent (16sq.f). Your space is a bit odd at 3.3x6 so id probably aim to about 900w to get par all over your space at 800. Strips will help to have an even spread over the surface. Thats if really you wanted to maximize your space

On a side note I guess Im lucky to pay only 0.09$/kwh :roll:
 
GrowLightResearch

GrowLightResearch

Well-Known Member
overdriver said:
The question now is. How many LM561C LED (from f-series strip) do I need per sqft to get 800 PPFD? Or how many BX Gen2?
Click to expand...
There are many variables to the PPFD. Mainly the height.

At a height of 1 meter a 1000W HPS has a center output at 400 µmols/m²/s according to Cree.
Figure about 100,000 lumens for an 1000W HPS.
So if the strip is 5,000 lumens you need 20 of them for the 1000W equivalent.

Using Inverse Square Law at 40" (1 meter) and 400 µmol by dropping the height to 28" will give you 800 µmol.

But it's not that simple. When you lower the fixture to 28" you are also lowering the PPFD below the height of the canopy where the 800 µmol is measured.

I wrote an app to see how height and PPFD interact.
Before the trolls attack me again on this concept, I need to say this my personal opinion even though it is based on sound science.

You will see the relationship between height and PPFD. You can change the height and PPFD to whatever you want.

At 400 µmol

Untitled.jpg



At 800 µmol

Untitled2.jpg


http://www.growlightresearch.com/ppfd/depth.php


The Cree PPFD plot for 1000W HPS

creePlotPPFD.jpg
 
V

Viceman666

Well-Known Member
GrowLightResearch said:
There are many variables to the PPFD. Mainly the height.

At a height of 1 meter a 1000W HPS has a center output at 400 µmols/m²/s according to Cree.
Figure about 100,000 lumens for an 1000W HPS.
So if the strip is 5,000 lumens you need 20 of them for the 1000W equivalent.

Using Inverse Square Law at 40" (1 meter) and 400 µmol by dropping the height to 28" will give you 800 µmol.

But it's not that simple. When you lower the fixture to 28" you are also lowering the PPFD below the height of the canopy where the 800 µmol is measured.

I wrote an app to see how height and PPFD interact.
Before the trolls attack me again on this concept, I need to say this my personal opinion even though it is based on sound science.

You will see the relationship between height and PPFD. You can change the height and PPFD to whatever you want.

At 400 µmol

View attachment 4093735



At 800 µmol

View attachment 4093736


http://www.growlightresearch.com/ppfd/depth.php


The Cree PPFD plot for 1000W HPS

View attachment 4093740
Click to expand...
Interesting concept.. i still dont quite get why higher height = deeper penetration.. the only thing I can think of is to have the same ppfd at 15 inch youd probably be running your light 50-70% lower power compared to 40 inch but at 40 inch you provide wider coverage which result in deeper coverage... is that correct?

Also My understanding is that it would apply only if you dont train your plant - what I mean there is if you top/scrog your plant then you dont really care about canopy penetration as everything is on top of the canopy is that correct also?

Thanks
 
wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
GrowLightResearch said:
There are many variables to the PPFD. Mainly the height.
.. bla bla...
I wrote an app to see how height and PPFD interact.
Before the trolls attack me again on this concept, I need to say this my personal opinion even though it is based on sound science.
.. bla bla...
Click to expand...
Seriously people this guy is completely nuts. I't still uncertain if he's trolling or actually this dumb, but ignore whatever he says, it's always wrong.

He is convinced that there is an inverse square relation between fixture height and average light intensity. Of course this is wrong and he has had a mountain of evidence showing he's wrong. Even his own measurements showed that light intensity decreases linearly with distance. Doesn't matter, he still keeps saying "ISL" (as he calls it) applies.

I pointed out that when farther away from the light the ISL decrease is smaller for a 4" increase in distance. Which was why he was seeing a decrease almost like "ISL" going from 36" to 40" compared to going from 4" to 8". Now he has taken this one step dumber and pretends we should actually "benefit" from this phenomenon and hang our lights higher.

Apparently he fails to understand that the same "ISL" would apply going from the fixture to the canopy. So with the light hanging at 40" means you would need to start with a huge amount of light to even get that 400umol/s/m2 at canopy level.

You can hang a led strip light 5" above the canopy. If "ISL" would actually apply the distance to 40" is 40/5=8 times greater. Which means you'd need 8^2=64 times as much light to start with. That makes it 25600umol/s/m2 to get that 400 at canopy level and you'd end up with less than 2% of that initial light on the canopy.

I have added the bit he "forgot" to add to his table. The negative distances are back up from the canopy towards the light:
ISL_Nonsense.png

In short, he advises us to waste 98.4% of the light, just so we get better penetration.
 
O

overdriver

Member
nice information so far.
I still have some difficulties deciding with what kind of setup I'm good to go now.
the 10 samsung f stripes or the 15 bridgelux eb gen2
 
alesh

alesh

Well-Known Member
GrowLightResearch said:
There are many variables to the PPFD. Mainly the height.

At a height of 1 meter a 1000W HPS has a center output at 400 µmols/m²/s according to Cree.
Figure about 100,000 lumens for an 1000W HPS.
So if the strip is 5,000 lumens you need 20 of them for the 1000W equivalent.

Using Inverse Square Law at 40" (1 meter) and 400 µmol by dropping the height to 28" will give you 800 µmol.

But it's not that simple. When you lower the fixture to 28" you are also lowering the PPFD below the height of the canopy where the 800 µmol is measured.

I wrote an app to see how height and PPFD interact.
Before the trolls attack me again on this concept, I need to say this my personal opinion even though it is based on sound science.
Click to expand...
Inverse Square Law could only be applied to single point sources that are not overlapping with one another. Otherwise it's much more complex. And if you have reflective walls in your space, it's completely off.
 
Serva

Serva

Well-Known Member
For the same money you can get (diods for 2ft):
4x EB strips (4*112=448 diods) or 2x F strip SR (2*72=144 diods)
4x EB strips (4*112=448 diods) or 1x F strip DR (144 diods)

Both setups will have the same efficiency, but EB strips have 3x more diods and you can spread them 2x (4x) more efficient. Bulk pricing will make F strips more interesting, because they get 15-25% cheaper.

But 70% less diods and the light is only spread 50% (25%) as good as in a EB strip setup!!

EB strip setups reach an efficiency of 185-190 lm/w. For a higher price F strips can go up to 200 lm/w.
 
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wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Serva said:
But 70% less diods and the light is only spread 50% (25%) as good as in a EB strip setup!!
Click to expand...
That's not how uniformity works. The distance between the strips relates to the mimimum distance between the light and the canopy. If you have more strips you could hang the lights slightly closer to the plants, but even with double row strips they can already go very close. Double row strips spaced 6" apart can be at 4" to 5" from the plants. There is little light distribution benefit from doubling the number of strips and going closer still. I'd personally say it's becomes awkward to get them closer than 5" anyway.
 
O

overdriver

Member
wietefras said:
That's not how uniformity works. The distance between the strips relates to the mimimum distance between the light and the canopy. If you have more strips you could hang the lights slightly closer to the plants, but even with double row strips they can already go very close. Double row strips spaced 6" apart can be at 4" to 5" from the plants. There is little light distribution benefit from doubling the number of strips and going closer still. I'd personally say it's becomes awkward to get them closer than 5" anyway.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your informations.

so what do you recommend for my setup?
I decided to smaller the space a bit.
so 3.3 x 4 ft = 13.2 sqft

I was aiming for 400 watt on this space

I remember growmau5 solved this issue for COB with 1 COB per sqft.
Is there something along this with stripes as well?
 
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