Discussion in 'Michigan Patients' started by stumpjumper, Sep 22, 2012.
^yeah send them to the unemployment line! !!!
I have a question that I could not really find in the document above ... I know you are allowed to have 2.5 oz of usable medicine , per patient I suppose. but 12 plants per patient as well, my math doesn't ad up. I get 2.5 per plant most times. so that means im pretty much forced to stagger everything then right ? I was stupidly under the impression the 2.5 was all you were allowed to transport , the 2.5 still applies to when your in your house then ? am I correct , because if this is the case I have to change some things up and start staggering each plant
I have heard of people jarring up their weed to cure with a piece of tape across the lid so if the jar is opened it breaks the 'seal'. Then the jar is labeled, "unusable until ____" and a date is written that is a few months in the future, when the jar is cured and ready. That seems like it may work, but I'd want verification from the rest of this community that they think so too... Seems plausible though, we're allowed an incidental amount of marijuana, but only 2.5ozs to be usable at any point in time.
Another thing that I saw someone doing is to just leave the plant to die in the pot, and he just had a dark room that was temp/humidity controlled and he would have a bunch of dead plants in pots in the dark room. Technically they're not harvested, so unusable. But realistically they were dried and cured and just needed light pruning and were ready for consumption. As he moved flowers to his patients he would pull out a plant, trim it, and get it to the next patient. It kept him below 2.5, and he claims that keeping buds on plant to cure produced some fine smoke.
Me? I just try my best to stay under 2.5ozs at all times.
^^^^ Both are reasonable legal interpretations IMHO, or that of a rational patient/caregiver attempting to grow within the law.
That said, there is no equality under the law and the State's (Judge, Prosecutor & LEO) prerogative rule their roost regardless and that always threatens your freedom. Let's call it their "discretion". One must take into consideration the States ability to legally interpret and use discretion at will, county to county and even city to city. The reality of MMMA in Genesse county looks nothing like the reality of MMMA in Oakland county, yet every patient/caregiver in this state share identical rights under the law.
This 2.5 ounces & 12 plants "exemption" game VS the immunity of "shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner" are both derived from Section 4 of MMMA titled "Protections for the Medical Use of Marihuana." This section of the law is clearly directed at the State, NOT patients/caregivers, a context the legal interpretation of the 2.5 ounces & 12 plants "exemption" game would require one to simply ignore. The patient/caregiver immunity granted on the other hand ("shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner") is unquestionably clear in letter, spirit and even the context of this particular section of the law from which it was drawn, a consistency required of integrity. If the State was held accountable to the true spirit of the overall law, that of decriminalizing medicinal use of MJ for patients/caregivers, all of these conversations would be mute and possibly even the true criminals would be getting a taste of their institutionalization agenda for their willful violation of civil rights.
Personally I believe the law allows the State to regulate personal possession/transportation limits to 2.5 ounces and 12 plants per patient, but in no way allows for (resuming) criminal law, penalties and procedures (esp the drug war type) for exceeding these arbitrary regulatory limits.
FWIW there are some interesting conversations going on at the MMMA website. There is CPU involvement. I know there are some here who want nothing to do with them. We're looking closely at the readmission of last year's failed legislation and figuring out our moves. I like to keep up both here and there.
You stopped just short of sec. 8 man. What do you think of it?
CPU is a small group of professionals in a paid membership who lobby the government on behalf of patients. It is Cannabis Patients United. Hayduke puts in legwork to meet with legislators and other players. I think he's squared away. They stay on top of the issues. It is a patient lobby.
I see it as a simple, specific and unalienable right of MMMA (esp from sec 4 arguments). An elementary affirmative defense to criminal law conviction, just as self defense is an affirmative defense to murder. MMMA grants this right to the patient/caregiver/accused (aka directed at/context). There is intentionally no mention of the section 4's State prohibitions nor 2.5 ounce and 12 plant regulatory limits, but rather intentionally grants the simple and somehow separate right to an "uninterrupted supply" of medicine to patients and their caregivers (aka letter and spirit of the law). It is a right, not a privilege the a court has the discretion to deny as they freely do with section 4 as it relates to themselves.
That said, the system still has the right to bankrupt you, forfeit your property and destroy your life like a parasite. There is no conviction require for that, that's just the cost of playing the game. Ironically, that game is exactly what section 4 of the law is intended to prohibit the State from doing in the first place
You get it. That's why we're in the game.
I think we need to explore this uninterrupted supply clause.
Maybe but that "usable" and "unusable" weed that isn't cured isn't going to cut it getting around the 2 1/2 oz limit, IMO
Cops don't care what the quality the weed is- Mexican weed used to get one busted long before MM happen
Maybe in a really cool area that uncured seal jar would be OK but I sure would not gamble on that. I feel for U guys that grow your own, it must be tough to handle a dozen plants and only 2 1/2 oz of usable weed...when your paying $200 an oz, its pretty hard to go over the limit
You just propagate them. you need a perpetual system really. I guess it's a way to keep us limited.
"Sec. 8. (a)(2) The patient and the patient's primary caregiver, if any, were collectively in possession of a quantity of marihuana that was not more than was reasonably necessary to ensure the uninterrupted availability of marihuana for the purpose of treating or alleviating the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition or symptoms of the patient's serious or debilitating medical condition"
Yup! What he said /\
This is something the Supreme Court might speak to soon. Evidentiary matters are in play.
Because the Michigan Supreme Court ruled on evidentiary matters in the combined case of People v Hartwick and People v Tuttle (http://courts.mi.gov...971 Opinion.pdf) I offer the attached document package in answer. Footnotes 77 and 78 of that ruling lay it out that this type of documentation is admissible, and even necessary, evidence in any prosecution regarding marijuana. Registry cards were ruled inadequate to prove any fact. Any patient and any caregiver can benefit from it under many circumstances. It costs nothing and offers added protection if and when you need it. Your bank provides notary services to its customers free. Many physician's offices have a licensed notary on their office staff, which you would do well to know. Please note that it covers two of three required elements of the Affirmative Defense found in sec. 8 of the law, i.e., that a patient and his/her doctor have met and concluded a bona fide medical exam, and that the physician has stated that, "In the physician's professional opinion, the patient is likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marihuana to treat or alleviate the patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition, and that said patients and caregivers are engaged in medical use to treat or alleviate said patients' conditions or symptoms." The third element is to adhere to the requirement that an amount not more than necessary to treat or alleviate a patient's condition or symptoms is held in possession.
It will be necessary to require your physician to sign his or her proof found in the supporting documents. If not, the court ruled that a copy of the Physician Certification Form submitted as part of the state registration process might suffice. The Application Form for Registry Identification Card, which includes caregiver designation, can also be useful. Having all would nonetheless offer better protection. If you wind up in court for any reason you will need this evidence.
Note that any patient or other person can act as a caregiver to any patient, with or without connection through the registry, under the definition found in the definitions found in sec. 3 of the law, and which is is repeated repeated in the caregiver affirmation section of the following agreement.
You will do well to ask an attorney experienced in cannabis defense re: any legal questions. I am not an attorney and have no professional relationship in that regard with anyone. I've worked on this because things go sideways sometimes for valid registered persons and they wind up in court with Michael Kormon representing. Other attorneys have been kept busy the same way, something like those in Hartwick and Tuttle. These types of documents can help us avoid those serious and costly circumstances. Attorneys are reluctant to offer this type of conversation without being in a privileged and confidential Attorney/Client relationship, and at a price. We have discussed that a patient's registration can lapse without them notifying their caregiver, and it is not uncommon. Sec. 4 possession limits are sometimes exceeded. Some patients need more than the sec. 4 limits. Some count twelve ounces an amount not more than necessary to provide an uninterrupted supply for a year when a patient requires an ounce a month. There are dumbassed law enforcement officers and judges who still don't get it. Added evidence like this can be especially helpful in defending yourself as a caregiver in any prosecution involving marijuana. It gets doctors and your patients off the hook from testifying, which is best to avoid. Police officers who would try to entrap you in selling to them will find it much more difficult, if not impossible. It is simple and straightforward.
Patient/Caregiver Agreement to Engage in the Medical Use of Marijuana
I,______________________________________, swear and affirm that I am a patient under the Michigan Medical Marihuana Act, Initiated Law 1 of 2008.
Dr._____________________________, a physician authorized under Part 170 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17001 to 333.17084, or an osteopathic physician under Part 175 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17501 to 333.17556, physician license I.D. number____________________ , has stated that in the physician's professional opinion, on or about (date)___________________________, and after having completed a full assessment of the patient's medical history and current medical condition made in the course of a bona fide physician-patient relationship, that I am likely to receive therapeutic or palliative benefit from the medical use of marijuana to treat or alleviate a debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition (copy attached) .
I hereby designate_______________________________ as my caregiver under that law, and agree to conform to the Act in the medical use of marijuana to treat or alleviate a debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition
I, ______________________________________, swear and affirm that I am at least 21 years of age and have agreed to assist with the above named patient's medical use of marijuana in accordance with that law. I have not been convicted of any felony within the past 10 years and have never been convicted of a felony involving illegal drugs or a felony that is an assaultive crime as defined in section 9a of chapter X of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 770.9a.
Confidentiality: Each party agrees and undertakes that it shall not, without first obtaining the written consent of the other, disclose or make available to any person, reproduce or transmit in any manner or use (directly or indirectly) for its own benefit or the benefit of others, any Confidential Information, save and except that both parties may disclose any Confidential Information to their legal advisers and counselors for the specific purposes contemplated by this agreement. Presentment or disclosure of this information is not prohibited as required by law or in any prosecution pertaining to the medical use of marijuana.
Subscribed and sworn before me this date: ____________________________
Patient sign here: _________________________________
Subscribed and sworn before me this date: ____________________________
Caregiver sign here: ________________________________
Print Notary Name: ________________________________
Notary public, State of Michigan, County of _____________________
My commission expires ___________________
Acting in the County of ___________________
DO NOT OVERLOOK the supporting documents. Use one or the other, one that requires notarization or another that does not. Notarized documents are more difficult for a Judge to dismiss: https://sites.google...attredirects=0, and here
How about a x ray?
Use guys are funny......Not going to matter soon if you don't all get up and call your local dipshit in office anyway....Their (MI congress) are about to strip all home growing and all caregiving and surplant it with lic. commercial ops ONLY...
3 levels of lic holder 500 - 1000 and 1500 plant lic. ONLY!
NO personal growing - NO caregiver growing......
Re-entry of LIMITED lic. disp. and all weed MUST be harvested and shipped to the Disp. by ARMORED car for processing !
3%-8% tax on everything at each level!
I've spoken in person with several congress person's and argued the best I can on this....NOW it's in your ball field....WRITE, Email, and call every congress person you can to vote NO on 4209 or any form of it to remove card holder growing and the removing of caregiver level growing......
Were being back doored by Prairie Farms and big money investor's JUST LIKE OHIO!
I haven't heard anything about this. Are they planning on telling patients and caregivers?
Separate names with a comma.