P deficiency?

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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
not true, i limed every peat mix i ever grew in and held steady pH at 6.8 with beautiful fat plants (when i grew with bottles ;) ). As long as you're below 7pH the plant will have all nutrients available. but i agree with you saying that it's not cal def. cal is immobile in the plant. It def. looks like a phos deficiency def. to me anyway... but it's nice to be able to dial in diagnosis when you know the pH of your medium, for sure.

are you in a peat based mix?

my basis for it not being a cal def is because the leaves are not showing rust issues at the veins, but you're having the dark spots and leaf dying that is more common symptom of P def.
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6.8 on peat moss will not work, that's for sure! i only grow in peat moss, and 6.8 would be too high in actual 'real' soil, in peat moss, it's a disaster. In any case, happy growing to all, i will help others. i push 6-8 oz plants with 400 watts of light using only gh flora micro and bloom with epsom salt at times, if my ph going in was above 6.3, by the time flowering comes, heavier elements like iron, copper, zinc, manganese will start getting locked out, only remedied when i lower ph below 6. It's not just me, if you look at research papers from studies conducted with sphagnum peat moss, they all agree with what i say..look at even how pro-mix (same ingredients) advertises their product..ph between 5.8-6.3! Alot of people get confused as when they see 'dirt', they automatically think, oh, that's soil..yet it has a very low cec, so what makes it soil? It's not, it's considered soilless, and ph should be adjusted accordingly. In any case, like i said, i won't try to convince someone that 1+1=2, if you guys say its 3, then go for it, good luck!;)
 
frizfrazjaz

frizfrazjaz

Well-Known Member
Blitz35 said:
He's not growing in soil! LOL..look at what he's grwoing in..just because it's 'dirt' does not make it soil! its a mixture of coco and sphagnum peat moss! You're clueless, anyways, im not forcing help, do what you want, im out lol.
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He may as well be using r/o at 40 ppm tds.
 
frizfrazjaz

frizfrazjaz

Well-Known Member
Blitz35 said:
6.8 on peat moss will not work, that's for sure! i only grow in peat moss, and 6.8 would be too high in actual 'real' soil, in peat moss, it's a disaster. In any case, happy growing to all, i will help others. i push 6-8 oz plants with 400 watts of light using only gh flora micro and bloom with epsom salt at times, if my ph going in was above 6.3, by the time flowering comes, heavier elements like iron, copper, zinc, manganese will start getting locked out, only remedied when i lower ph below 6. It's not just me, if you look at research papers from studies conducted with sphagnum peat moss, they all agree with what i say..look at even how pro-mix (same ingredients) advertises their product..ph between 5.8-6.3! Alot of people get confused as when they see 'dirt', they automatically think, oh, that's soil..yet it has a very low cec, so what makes it soil? It's not, it's considered soilless, and ph should be adjusted accordingly. In any case, like i said, i won't try to convince someone that 1+1=2, if you guys say its 3, then go for it, good luck!;)
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Go chase your ph
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Blitz35 said:
6.8 on peat moss will not work, that's for sure! i only grow in peat moss, and 6.8 would be too high in actual 'real' soil, in peat moss, it's a disaster. In any case, happy growing to all, i will help others. i push 6-8 oz plants with 400 watts of light using only gh flora micro and bloom with epsom salt at times, if my ph going in was above 6.3, by the time flowering comes, heavier elements like iron, copper, zinc, manganese will start getting locked out, only remedied when i lower ph below 6. It's not just me, if you look at research papers from studies conducted with sphagnum peat moss, they all agree with what i say..look at even how pro-mix (same ingredients) advertises their product..ph between 5.8-6.3! Alot of people get confused as when they see 'dirt', they automatically think, oh, that's soil..yet it has a very low cec, so what makes it soil? It's not, it's considered soilless, and ph should be adjusted accordingly. In any case, like i said, i won't try to convince someone that 1+1=2, if you guys say its 3, then go for it, good luck!;)
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6.8 worked just fine for me. calibrated blue lab soil pH pen, watched it the whole way. i never had lock out issues. While I do agree that a slightly lower pH is better, being just below 7 never caused me any issues and yields were great.

I don't even use bottle nutrients anymore. my mix is water only, my soil feeds the plant, and i feed the soil. my medium is ALIVE, which makes it a soil. I agree that a lifeless peat/coco medium that is hand watered with bottle nutes is as close to hydroponics as you can get without having a table! They're one in the same to me.
 
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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
frizfrazjaz said:
He may as well be using r/o at 40 ppm tds.
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What does that have to do with anything? Yes, his water source is low ppm, so he uses cal-mag. his mixture also contains gypsum and dolomite, both sources of calcium and one with magnesium. However, looking like a p deficiency, that would happen if obviously phosphorus isn't enough, or if a ph issue is locking it out. In his mixture, p is best available under a ph of 6.2, better under 6..at 6.5, p will have a hard time getting in when he's growing in a coc/peat moss base.
 
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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
6.8 worked just fine for me. calibrated blue lab soil pH pen, watched it the whole way. i never had lock out issues. While I do agree that a slightly lower pH is better, being just below 7 never caused me any issues and yields were great.

I don't even use bottle nutrients anymore. my mix is water only, my soil feeds the plant, and i feed the soil. my medium is ALIVE, which makes it a soil. I agree that a lifeless peat/coco medium that is hand watered with bottle nutes is as close to hydroponics as you can get without having a table! They're one in the same to me.
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Who said his 'soil' was 'alive'? He's using maxibloom as his nute, he's not growing in an organic manner, he's feeding chem nutes that bacteria doesn't have to break down..those chem nutes, in his base are not going to be well absorbed at the ph levels you guys are throwing around.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Blitz35 said:
What does that have to do with anything? Yes, his water source is low ppm, so he uses cal-mag. his mixture also contains gypsum and dolomite, both sources of calcium and one with magnesium. However, looking like a p deficiency, that would happen if obviously phosphorus isn't enough, or if a ph issue is locking it out. In his mixture, p is best available under a ph of 6.2, better under 6..at 6.5, p will have a hard time getting in when he's growing in a coc/peat moss base.
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P availability is better at 6.5 than it is at 6. look at any availability chart.

Blitz35 said:
Who said his 'soil' was 'alive'? He's using maxibloom as his nute, he's not growing in an organic manner, he's feeding chem nutes that bacteria doesn't have to break down..those chem nutes, in his base are not going to be well absorbed at the ph levels you guys are throwing around.
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i'm not here to argue, and never said his soil was alive. I'm not here to hijack this guys thread and try and try to be a know-it-all like you are. Insulting people for no reason. Just trying to help this guy out
 
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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
P availability is better at 6.5 than it is at 6. look at any availability chart.



i'm not here to argue, and never said his soil was alive. I'm not here to hijack this guys thread and try and try to be a know-it-all like you are. Insulting people for no reason. Just trying to help this guy out
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Im insulting people? where? lol..my, alot of sensitive types..im not a know-it-all, but when someone contradicts dozens of conducted researches, it seems it's bad info being spread. in any case, again, im done, op can do what he wants, you guys seem to know better, take care!
 
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CJS SPARTANS

Well-Known Member
Blitz35 said:
Your issue will be ph related, not cal-mag! Calcium does not move from bottom up, and you would see issues with magnesium as well on the other perfectly green leaves. Your ph is way too high..you're growing in a mix of coco/sphagnum peat moss, ph should never get above 6.2...above 6 you will start seeing lockouts of heavier micro elements, phosphorus as well does not get taken up well at your ph levels. Keep the ph between 5.7-6.0. If you can add other pics, showing the top of the plant and a zoomed back image would help.
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Ive personally been wondering if I should be using more acidic feed because I'm not feeding organic I'm feeding synthetic, and dosnt synthetic feed kill if most microorganisms and beneficial fungi?
 
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CJS SPARTANS

Well-Known Member
frizfrazjaz said:
Yeah, I use it for regular and feeding nutes. I use GH too. If you want alternatives, there’s dolomite lime, Epsom salts, you could look into.
I definitely had your symptoms. Dying from bottom up. Fan leaves would roll up, not curl under. Some were twisted, but all would eventually dry up crispy and die. I started with the cal/mag and the plant completely turned around within 2 weeks.
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My ph ended up coming out exactly what I put in, but my ppms were around 2000 because of sediment on my grow table lol
 
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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
Contrary to popular belief, synthetics will not 'kill' the microbes in your medium. Truth be told, and im sure i'll get blasted by some for this..the plant has no idea if it's taking up say, a synthetic potassium ion or an organic form of it..the plant can't tell the difference and more importantly, it does not care whether it's organic or synthetic! One can say organic is 'cleaner' to grow in, but the final results will be the same. Growing organically is 'easier' once you know the ins and outs..as if it's properly done, you won't have to ever check ph and ppm's, the plants will grow 'perfectly' in most cases with minimal care needed for feedings and the rest of the measurements. if growing completely in a chemical environment, the microbes for the most part, will go dormant in your medium as their work won't be needed nearly as much as if growing organically..they are mainly there to break down the food and deliver it to the plant, it creates a convenient environment for plants to grow in and goes along a 'natural' process.
As for your runoff, be careful trusting it too much..i've had runoff where it was 3000 and i had no issues with the plant, though i did lower it for my comfort lol. My suggestion again, would be to lower your ph..you can do your own research on the matter, a quick search in google will show you that all research shows, your ph is too high. Even phosphorus, in 'real' soil, is not available above 6.5..in coco/soilless mix, it doesnt get through above 6.0. Not saying that's 100% your issue, but ph is the first thing to look at before adjusting your feed, as the elements might/likely are there, just not available to the plant due to ph, or lockout due to a toxicity of another element.
 
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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
CJS SPARTANS said:
Ive personally noticed I still get great results with 6.5ish ph , I'm going to hit the worst one plant with a 5.6ph and see if there's a change, might as well try it out
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no need to drop it that far that fast..it has to be done gradually..start giving 6.0-6.2..dont go under 5.8 for now.
 
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Blitz35

Well-Known Member
i once had a phosphorus issue as well...the problem was my ph was too low and magnesium was not being taken up..so it appeared mostly as a mag issue, but magnesium transports phosphorus throughout the plant..if you're low on magnesium, then soon you will be low on phosphorus as well as they count on each other. Same can happen say with a potassium deficiency..it may be there, but something like too much nitrogen in your medium would lock potassium out..so adding more wouldn't help, reducing nitrogen would in that case. Elements behave like a row of dominoes..if something goes wrong with one (too much or too little), it will affect the next one and so on..soon your chasing your tail trying to fix one deficiency/toxicity after another. If you drop it too low, then Ca, Mg, K will stay stuck in your medium..as your medium dries out, it will, in your case, go higher than what you're putting in..so giving her around 5.8-6.0 will allow the heavier elements and P to get through, and as it dries and ph rises, other elements will be taken up as well.
 
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