Root Development vs Plant Growth
- Thread starter skunkushybrid
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skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
Nice to see this thread still going...
I have i think 3 years experience growing plants in 4" pots now... i keep mother plants in them and grow plants from seed through to full harvest in a 4" pot. I think that there may be some loss to a plant's capacity to bush out during veg when roots are constricted and it may slow down growth a tad, but i used extremes. growing a seed plant through to full harvest in a 4" pot is pretty extreme i think and barely manageable with twice daily waterings. the smaller the medium the harder it is to maintain too, you need to be far more aware of salt build ups.... too many salts will slow K transport and this hurts yield. you may not even see it, plants look great, but the salts in the medium slow K transport and plants respond by producing less flowers to compensate. I know that plants take from the stores in the leaves... but there is a balance that must be achieved if a plant is to grow at full potential. there needs to be an adequate supply at the root zone or the plant will respond by slowing growth.
The roots job is nutrient transport, root mass is not so important in the grand scheme of things, if there is a loss to growth then it is minimal... from my own grows and those of people like fdd and the other guy that posted the pic a few posts back, we've all seen that cannabis doesn't seem to suffer from root bound. Seems to have an intelligent root system... a root system capable of changing the pH by a whole point, a system capable of rejecting nutrients, a system capable of shutting down whole sections at a time yet still run at full capacity.
Honestly, what I got from it was an economical way of growing... a single bag of coco 50litres would see me through 3 grows, grows of an lb each and more. A lot of the time i grew SoG, but i also grew plenty of seed plants too, both straight to 12/12 and with a 4 week veg, etc, etc... also done hydro. I grew a 3/4oz plant in a hydroponic set up with a root space of just 500ml, around a pint. It's good to push the limits, and doing that shows people that they don't need to get a 7 gallon container and veg a seed plant for 4 weeks before flip... just overkill.
I'm going back to large plants and 1 gallon containers now... lol. 1 gallon is large to me. 14 seed plants... 2 bags of coco, OMFG!
I have i think 3 years experience growing plants in 4" pots now... i keep mother plants in them and grow plants from seed through to full harvest in a 4" pot. I think that there may be some loss to a plant's capacity to bush out during veg when roots are constricted and it may slow down growth a tad, but i used extremes. growing a seed plant through to full harvest in a 4" pot is pretty extreme i think and barely manageable with twice daily waterings. the smaller the medium the harder it is to maintain too, you need to be far more aware of salt build ups.... too many salts will slow K transport and this hurts yield. you may not even see it, plants look great, but the salts in the medium slow K transport and plants respond by producing less flowers to compensate. I know that plants take from the stores in the leaves... but there is a balance that must be achieved if a plant is to grow at full potential. there needs to be an adequate supply at the root zone or the plant will respond by slowing growth.
The roots job is nutrient transport, root mass is not so important in the grand scheme of things, if there is a loss to growth then it is minimal... from my own grows and those of people like fdd and the other guy that posted the pic a few posts back, we've all seen that cannabis doesn't seem to suffer from root bound. Seems to have an intelligent root system... a root system capable of changing the pH by a whole point, a system capable of rejecting nutrients, a system capable of shutting down whole sections at a time yet still run at full capacity.
Honestly, what I got from it was an economical way of growing... a single bag of coco 50litres would see me through 3 grows, grows of an lb each and more. A lot of the time i grew SoG, but i also grew plenty of seed plants too, both straight to 12/12 and with a 4 week veg, etc, etc... also done hydro. I grew a 3/4oz plant in a hydroponic set up with a root space of just 500ml, around a pint. It's good to push the limits, and doing that shows people that they don't need to get a 7 gallon container and veg a seed plant for 4 weeks before flip... just overkill.
I'm going back to large plants and 1 gallon containers now... lol. 1 gallon is large to me. 14 seed plants... 2 bags of coco, OMFG!
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
I don't see how that is possible when the plant continues growing regardless of root mass. if what you are saying is true, then restricting the root mass to a specific area would result in a plant only growing so big... and yet, i have had a 6ft plant in a 4" pot. I noticed minimal differences growing a seed plant in a 4" pot through to full harvest and that of a similar plant in a 1 or even 2 gallon container.
the roots are just a part of the plant and in evolutionary terms actually came second. so you could argue that the plant is the foundation the roots are built on and from, which is exactly the case. Place the stem of a plant in the dark and it will turn to root. the leaves and stems are just as capable of absorbing nutrients, atmospherically. Indeed it is possible to feed and perhaps even water a plant bypassing the root system completely.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I'll try this again.......
If a plant does not receive water and nourishing salts, it dies. If the plant is in a large root tip pruning type pot whereby a very large network of fine roots with thousands of roothairs are produced, it can then grow to it fullest potential.
Just because you are fixated on small pots doesn't mean you're giving your plants the best conditions.
Leaves are not functionally capable of the efficient uptake of water and salts as are roots, by design.
UB
If a plant does not receive water and nourishing salts, it dies. If the plant is in a large root tip pruning type pot whereby a very large network of fine roots with thousands of roothairs are produced, it can then grow to it fullest potential.
Just because you are fixated on small pots doesn't mean you're giving your plants the best conditions.
Leaves are not functionally capable of the efficient uptake of water and salts as are roots, by design.
UB
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
leaves may not be capable of taking water and nutrients from the ground, which is why plants invented roots... but they're certainly capable of taking atmospheric nitrogen in the form of various nitrogen oxides, and also foliar applied nitrogen too. Plants can also take atmospheric sulfur and utilise it. If all nutrients are provided in a foliar feed then this is even more effective than feeding through the roots. foliar feeding is often used to bring an under fertilised plant back quickly...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foliar_feeding
The water thing is up in the air, but there are plenty of species of plants that survive just fine utilising water gained from morning dew and rains. It would be an interesting experiment to try and feed both water and nutrients, by-passing the root system completely.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
If we also look to aeroponics... aeroponic growers regualrly grow huge beasts of plants, 8oz per plant is not unusual... and the root balls of those plants are very tiny in comparison to similar soil-grown plants. The plant literally does not need to grow an extensive root system as everything is provided for it.
You can mimic this same thing in coco or soil by growing in a more restrictive space. So long as everything is provided, water, nutrients and upward support then the plant does not need an extensive root system. Obviously in a plant's natural habitat iot needs an extensive root system because of competition for nutrients. Tame the plant and you can also tame the root system. Just like with pigs, plants have a certain degree of adaptation, once we bring the plant indoors or even place it into a pot outdoors we are taking control of that plant's world, looking after it, mothering it... and plants will lose the wildness, particularly an intelligent (highly adaptive) plant like cannabis.
I'm not suggesting for one second that growers go the extremes i have these past 4 years. I thought it was only three, but the start of this thread dates back 4 years. If you're going to veg' a seed plant for 4 weeks then i'd suggest you use 1/2 gallon containers, certainly no larger than 1 gallon. Using containers that are too large results in huge wastes of medium, water and nutrients. I'd also suggest that you pot up a stage at a time, purely to avoid waste of materials.
You can mimic this same thing in coco or soil by growing in a more restrictive space. So long as everything is provided, water, nutrients and upward support then the plant does not need an extensive root system. Obviously in a plant's natural habitat iot needs an extensive root system because of competition for nutrients. Tame the plant and you can also tame the root system. Just like with pigs, plants have a certain degree of adaptation, once we bring the plant indoors or even place it into a pot outdoors we are taking control of that plant's world, looking after it, mothering it... and plants will lose the wildness, particularly an intelligent (highly adaptive) plant like cannabis.
I'm not suggesting for one second that growers go the extremes i have these past 4 years. I thought it was only three, but the start of this thread dates back 4 years. If you're going to veg' a seed plant for 4 weeks then i'd suggest you use 1/2 gallon containers, certainly no larger than 1 gallon. Using containers that are too large results in huge wastes of medium, water and nutrients. I'd also suggest that you pot up a stage at a time, purely to avoid waste of materials.
Evil Buddies
Ganja King
you to getting deep man hheheheehe it's nice to follow the discussion and good to see u back skunkushy hope your good
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
Blast from the past.... good to see you again EB.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Again, it's an issue of efficiency. If you want to provide all your plant's nutrition via the leaves, good luck.
Given a properly aerated/structured soil, plants grown outdoors in the ground will always be more robust, healthier and productive than plants grown in small pots. Dr. Carl Whitcomb, horticulturist, professor and inventor didn't design his RootMaker line of containers based on whims expressed by gimmick addicted stoners. His methods and container materials are based on basic botanical principles after years of research. I'm currently using his Rootbuilder material and have used Griffin's Spin-Out to increase root mass for increased water and salts uptake. Daniels has an excellent thread going on Rootmaker products. http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,4357.0.html
UB
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by this statement. Are you saying it is less efficient to feed a plant through the leaves? If so, can you explain in what way? Just making a statement like that without an explanation makes the statement redundant.
What do you mean by small pot in relation to the ground? by definition, any pot would be small compared to the ground.
i've seen plenty of outdoor plants that look like shit. Travel to scotland or anywhere in Northern England and find me a good outdoor plant. It doesn't happen, can't even grow potent weed in this country anyway... It doesn't have anything to do with soil, or roots... it's the light and food that are important with plant growth.
hard to take seriously a guy making money from products based on his own 'research'. Biased perhaps? How about some information from this guy.. bit lonely in this post just mentioning his name and products with no other facts that are included in the books of his you've read.
Plants make roots on their own. give them enough light and enough nutrition, and the roots will grow as a natural course. Most of the nutrients the plant needs for growth are left stored in the roots and the rest of the plant, because the plant can only grow so much based on the relationship of everything in the environment. Plants work very hard to keep nutrients out, and to only let in what they need for actual growth. increasing the root mass will not increase upward growth. how can it? The only way that can work is in a natural environment, because the root system needs to travel to find nutrients, this is where the misnomer comes from. Yes, outdoors, in the wild, a larger root sytem is needed, obviously to locate nutrients in an attempt to keep up with the growth promoted by light, but if you contain the root system, therefore taming it, then a much smaller root system can achieve the same work of an outdoor big one. This is also obvious when you take the fact that plants are capable of shutting down entire sections of the root system and still grow with 100% efficiency.
roots will grow regardless, make the space big enough and they will attempt to fill it. If you like lots of roots then that is fine, i suppose if they make you feel better than who am I to tell you different? I just know different. I haven't just grown in 4" pots and i also haven't just experiemnted in this area with coco, i've also done hydro too.
I'm aware that I could be blinded by my efficient use of space and materials and have gone back to 1 gallon containers for a grow. If i veg for 4 weeks and only achieve one oz per plant then i will go back to 4" containers and do the same thing. I see no difference aside from having to be aware of medium management... although i've also reveg'ed plants and harvested them a second time all in the same 4" pot. Plenty of other growers can achieve the same thing too and have done since.
All a plant needs is a root system capable of pulling enough nutrients to support upward growth. A guy with a small mouth can be fatter than a guy with a big one. It's not about how much you take in one bite, it's how much you take period.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
What I'm doing here is called root restriction. Ths is very much the same as air pruning, which is bullshit anyway. You don't need to air prune the roots as the roots from a restricted root system are more highly active than a lesser restricted system. I agree that plants will grow smaller, but they will still yield the same. This is my whole point, the crux of it all. It comes down to yield for me.
Indeed too, you speak of root air pruning when this is very often mentioned in the same sentence as root restriction. Air pruning is just another method of root mass restriction. whether you bind the roots or cut them off it's all the same thing.
thc&me
Active Member
I believe that root mass (albeit healthy) is directly related to harvest weight. It really depends on how you choose to grow. If you're growing SOG than root mass is not really important, but for growers who have limitations placed on how many plants they can grow, root mass will be crucial. I've actually measured and compared root ball diameters between my plants and found that the larger the root system the greater the yield.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I gave you a link bozo.
Wrong, has nothing to do with restriction, quite the opposite. Do your homework.
UB
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
I checked the link. it leads to a site that you need to be a member of to view the thread... and i have no intention of making an account just to look at some guy's thread. If you have anything real to share then please do. here is that question again:
Are you saying it is less efficient to feed a plant through the leaves? If so, can you explain in what way?
I have done my homework, obviously a heap more than you have as you seem to concentrate in one area and on one man, yet struggle too to provide any substantial information for me to digest. You go from mentioning one guy to mentioning another... You take the time to respond yet fail to provide anything substantial. What I read sticks in my head and i have no problem reiterating that information in my own words. Your words promise much and deliver nothing. I'm disappointed as I've been trying to prove myself wrong for a few years now.. this is why i've gone back to big pots for a grow. I just need to see it one more time.
I like the reading though too... i tend to do things myself first and then find the explanations for what i'm seeing. Just like anybody else though I could be wrong, making connections that are not there based on other connections that are loose fitting, etc, etc...
Pruning the roots or trimming them is still just a way of maintaining a certain-sized root system, or restricting it. As i've stated, there are many journals out there where root pruning is mentioned as just another system of root restriction. Although I will agree that there are separate repercussions from one or the other. With root pruning for example the plants are encouraged to build new roots, concentrate on new root growth... whereas actually just constricting the roots encourages the plant to utilise that system more intensely. It is documented that a constricted root system will increase efficiency to compensate for being smaller.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Hard headedness leads to ignorance.
Are you kidding me? Of course it's less efficient. Leaves don't have root hairs, there are no nutrients in the air. Someone needs to learn something about mama natur's ecosystem and botany. I'm not here to spoon feed anyone.
Root tip termination aka "root pruning" via air or copper hydroxide is not restricting shit, apples and oranges. Root TIP pruning induces a massive output of fine roots which results in 10 times the potential uptake of water and nutrients based on a 4" rule that applies to root output and elongation, as explained by Dr. Carl Whitcomb. You need to register at Riddle and read the thread if you're truly interested in getting an education, or at least get a book on indoor plant culture.
Here, I'll spoon feed you one time....that's all the patience I have...
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
and you say this because i refuse to make a whole account for something you could cut n paste (as you obviously struggle yourself)? I'm prepared to learn, you're just having difficulty sharing. If you know it you will say it in your own words, if you don't cut n paste it... wtf?
Obviously leaves don't have root hairs, by definition a root hair would need to be on a root unless it fell off and landed on a leaf, then a leaf could have a root hair. This is how you explain why it is less efficient to foliar feed? LOL. Sorry, I really don't mean to be rude, unlike yourself I might add. I'm laughing because you haven't explained a thing with that statement. Leaves have stomata that exchange gases... yes? Here's that metaphorical spoon, now open your mouth... wider... our atmosphere is not just made up of oxygen, indeed it is mostly nitrogen. That nitrogen comes in lots of different forms of gasses or oxides that are exchangable at the leaf stomata.
Here's that spoon again... do you know what the composition of ammonia is? I'll give you a clue, it contains nitrogen...
LOL... you reading that shit, open wide now... a plant can actually absorb more S from the air than through the root zone in the right conditions.
i'm just getting started, but you're not giving me enough ammo... shall I move onto chlorine? You do know chlorine is an essential plant nutrient? Do you know plants absorb it from the atmosphere? Course you don't. If you did you wouldn't go around making stupid statements like there are no nutrients in the air. info is on the scholar pages, know what they are? course not, they're not trying to sell you anything to make your grow better. LOL
It is restricting root mass. The roots come out and are air pruned, therefore not allowing the root system to grow past a certain soze, ergo restricting it. root pruning has been used for centuries in bonsai techniques.
This still explains nothing, based on a 4" rule? a 4" rule that means what? and how does this mean the plant responds with better growth? LOL
so you have no idea yourself how it really works you're just taking the doctors word for it. OK i see that, that's cool... just don't spoon feed me crap. substantial shit only please, or GTFO.
grapeoptimo
Well-Known Member
if u quit being so rude u will get a better response.
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
RAM (root apical meristem) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meristem, check it out.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
I already know all that. what is your point in posting that link?