Silica in nutrients, mix first or last?

I running Botanicare PBP w/supplements. On Botanicares site I've found where it says to add silica first, then in another area where it says to add it last.

Under the Silica Blast FAQS:
"Q: When mixing nutrients, should I add Silica Blast before or after adding other supplements?
A: Silica Blast should be the last product added to the nutrient solution, before adjusting pH. Silica Blast tends to increase the pH of the nutrient solution significantly so it is best added last, after all other nutrients have been mixed in."

On the PBP feed chart:
"2. Follow these steps when using Silica Blast or Cal-Mag. When using Silica Blast, always add Silica Blast into your reservoir FIRST followed by Cal-Mag. If Silica Blast
is not being used and Cal-Mag is, Cal-Mag should be added FIRST, then add the remaining nutrients"

I've been mixing silica>calmag>base>supplements, without any issue, as far as I can tell.

Trying to get an answer from Botanicare for over 2weeks now, multiple phone calls and emails. Their lack of customer service has me looking at other nutrient lines. them if they don't support their products. Too bad, I like it otherwise.

WeedFreak78 said:

I running Botanicare PBP w/supplements. On Botanicares site I've found where it says to add silica first, then in another area where it says to add it last.

Under the Silica Blast FAQS:
"Q: When mixing nutrients, should I add Silica Blast before or after adding other supplements?
A: Silica Blast should be the last product added to the nutrient solution, before adjusting pH. Silica Blast tends to increase the pH of the nutrient solution significantly so it is best added last, after all other nutrients have been mixed in."

On the PBP feed chart:
"2. Follow these steps when using Silica Blast or Cal-Mag. When using Silica Blast, always add Silica Blast into your reservoir FIRST followed by Cal-Mag. If Silica Blast
is not being used and Cal-Mag is, Cal-Mag should be added FIRST, then add the remaining nutrients"

I've been mixing silica>calmag>base>supplements, without any issue, as far as I can tell.

Trying to get an answer from Botanicare for over 2weeks now, multiple phone calls and emails. Their lack of customer service has me looking at other nutrient lines. them if they don't support their products. Too bad, I like it otherwise.

Click to expand...

The thing is. When adding Si to anything with Ca/Mg added...It can cause a precipitate to form between the Si and the ca.

To avoid this problem.....You can do it either way! You simply do the Ca/Mg the exact opposite! You should stir the mix well before adding either one!

If you can. This will avoid the whole issue..
If you do plain water watering - in-between feedings...add the Si then! OR alternate the Si and the Ca/mg in feedings (if you can)...

Dr. Who said:

The thing is. When adding Si to anything with Ca/Mg added...It can cause a precipitate to form between the Si and the ca.

To avoid this problem.....You can do it either way! You simply do the Ca/Mg the exact opposite! You should stir the mix well before adding either one!

If you can. This will avoid the whole issue..
If you do plain water watering - in-between feedings...add the Si then! OR alternate the Si and the Ca/mg in feedings (if you can)...

Click to expand...

I was in dwc, so it was all going in the same soup.. should have mentioned that. I'm going back to soil for the summer, maybe for good, hydros been to involved with the size of my garden. I don't use much nutes in soil, fish fert mostly, but I figure I'll use this stuff up with weak feeding/amendments.

Thanks DR.

i use gh armour si, i never follow the directions for use.,. i use it as a ph up after my nutrients are mixed w water and in the rez.. then i add a tsp to a 5 gallon bucket of water every few days to top off my rez.. i change my rez every 2 weeks, but at first i mix water n nutes in a 5 gal bucket put in rez then fill the rez w water,,in flood n drain the nutrients get mixed in every time u flood.. anyways at first my ph is at 5.5 after a few days its 5.7 i top off w/ si mix water brings ph up to 5.8, 3 days later i top off ph is around 6.0 after 9 days i add a bit of ph down to get rez back to 5.8 then again top off every 3 days w si water by day 14 its time to drain,clean,refill rez.. so my ph goes between 5.5-6.2 i think its supose to rais as u go as different things are absorbed by the plants roots at different ph's...
so long as my ph never goes below 5.5 or above 6.3 ..

Some people say add K2SO4 before anything else. Others say silica & calmag.
Kind of confusing.
Calcium seems to be the main culprit when it comes to precipitation. Would a natural chelator like humic acid make the solution more stable?

As mentioned above, silica and calcium don't seem to like to get along. The way I ended up dealin with this in my rDWC setup was to alternate. My reservoir was fairly small so I usually did a full reservoir change every 10 days or so. I'd do calmag with no silica, then when it came time to change res I'd to silica and no calmag. It worked well for me.

Chunky Stool said:

Some people say add K2SO4 before anything else. Others say silica & calmag.
Kind of confusing.
Calcium seems to be the main culprit when it comes to precipitation. Would a natural chelator like humic acid make the solution more stable?

Click to expand...

I would say yes - as long as it was in before one of the antagonist compounds!
Nice point!

Dr. Who said:

I would say yes - as long as it was in before one of the antagonist compounds!
Nice point!

Click to expand...

I'm going to try it in this order:
1) Cal-mag
2) Humic acid
* wait 15 mins *
3) everything else

PROBLEM: How will I know if it worked and calcium did *not* react with other chemicals? Normally I could see the solution get cloudy from precipitation, but humic acid is jet black and there's no way to get a visual confirmation.
Maybe one of our local chemists has some ideas...??? @cannabineer

Chunky Stool said:

I'm going to try it in this order:
1) Cal-mag
2) Humic acid
* wait 15 mins *
3) everything else

PROBLEM: How will I know if it worked and calcium did *not* react with other chemicals? Normally I could see the solution get cloudy from precipitation, but humic acid is jet black and there's no way to get a visual confirmation.
Maybe one of our local chemists has some ideas...??? @cannabineer

Click to expand...

The silica we get is usually potassium silicate, which is quite alkaline. When I added it, I prediluted it and added it "last thing" for no defensible reason other than "it seemed to work".

Humic acids are generally insoluble, so it is hard to tell if you are precipitating nutes onto a colloid. And I don't know how mobile/available they are. I also wonder if natural humic acid already contains some available silica. If I remember, fulvic acids are the "soluble" fraction of the "peat chelators", so you might get a clear solution with those.

I had precipitation issues, but all I found in my res were the shiny broken/glass shards of struvite, which is ammonium magnesium phosphate.

Keep in mind I am an organic chemist who is not so conversant with the inorganic (I recognize that "organic" means different things to lab and garden workers). If you want a pro's opinion, I'd wager @Singlemalt has more relevant experience.

cannabineer said:

The silica we get is usually potassium silicate, which is quite alkaline. When I added it, I prediluted it and added it "last thing" for no defensible reason other than "it seemed to work".

Humic acids are generally insoluble, so it is hard to tell if you are precipitating nutes onto a colloid. And I don't know how mobile/available they are. I also wonder if natural humic acid already contains some available silica. If I remember, fulvic acids are the "soluble" fraction of the "peat chelators", so you might get a clear solution with those.

I had precipitation issues, but all I found in my res were the shiny broken/glass shards of struvite, which is ammonium magnesium phosphate.

Keep in mind I am an organic chemist who is not so conversant with the inorganic (I recognize that "organic" means different things to lab and garden workers). If you want a pro's opinion, I'd wager @Singlemalt has more relevant experience.

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Thanks for the help!
I'm using some stuff I got off Amazon -- cheap. When mixed, the concentrate looks a lot like a product called "Fossil Fuel" (much more expensive).
After using it, I'd say it's "semi-soluble", if there is such a thing. The water is definitely black, but there are some solids that settle to the bottom.

https://www.amazon.com/TeraVita-SP-90-Humic-Soluble-Powder/dp/B0088NC7FC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1492875427&sr=8-5&keywords=humic+acid

Chunky Stool said:

Some people say add K2SO4 before anything else. Others say silica & calmag.
Kind of confusing.
Calcium seems to be the main culprit when it comes to precipitation. Would a natural chelator like humic acid make the solution more stable?

Click to expand...

When I mixed my own, I started with calcium sulfate (solution-grade gypsum). It has the lowest solubility product of the major ions present, 0.2 grams per liter ... except for the annoying struvite formers. I get struvite because there is some ammonium ion in the "stabilized" calcium nitrate I can get from ag suppliers. My bucket looked like it was full of hoarfrost at the end of a grow cycle.

I personally post half my 2 ltr into a just n add the silica n stir for a bit randomly as I prep the rest, then to the ltr I add Vega n close the bottle n shake the shit out of it then seaweed,shake the shit out of it n then Calmag n some carbs for my endos constantly shaking n mixing then I pour the silica into the 2ltr bottle shake n pour into the jug stir n put it back in the bottle once the ph is 6.5-6.6 n I feed veg nutes till week 3 after she's finished puberty n pk depending on strain week 7,7 or 8 if it's sat dom maybe even longer n u want a good pk with potass...Haha @potass

Chunky Stool said:

Thanks for the help!
I'm using some stuff I got off Amazon -- cheap. When mixed, the concentrate looks a lot like a product called "Fossil Fuel" (much more expensive).
After using it, I'd say it's "semi-soluble", if there is such a thing. The water is definitely black, but there are some solids that settle to the bottom.

https://www.amazon.com/TeraVita-SP-90-Humic-Soluble-Powder/dp/B0088NC7FC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1492875427&sr=8-5&keywords=humic+acid

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THE best Humic/Fulvic agent available - PERIOD.

BIOAG FUL-HUMIX

BTW - Build soil say this - Ful-Humix will also buffer the soil with organic biopolymers, thus preventing tie up of nutrients and trace elements (through chelation and complexing).

Just want to say thanks, I've learned some things i had to Google.. struvites.. what? Love the science. I learned more here than in 3 days of researching.

I wish the chemistry behind these nutes was discussed more, how they interact with each other, cause lockouts and precipitation, etc. Most of what I've learned had been trial and error.

Yeah know. It should be noted that if you use a basic pH UP. It should be added first and well stirred. Then add Ca compounds after the other things you use....So Ca Last, and stir while you add.
If you get precipitation anyway.

Time to change to a non-silicate UP. Technaflora use's potassium hydroxide and no potassium silicates......That's a good choice for avoiding the problem with UP and Ca.

I've found that PH-up is rarely needed.
I use Protekt silica with liquid fish/seaweed or other products known to drop PH in a big way. (TechnaFlora Pura Vida products are notorious.)

Chunky Stool said:

I've found that PH-up is rarely needed.
I use Protekt silica with liquid fish/seaweed or other products known to drop PH in a big way. (TechnaFlora Pura Vida products are notorious.)

Click to expand...

weird...
I'm in dirt now, but for the last yr+ of hydro I never touched ph down, it was always ph up. I've had the same bottle of ph down going on 3 years now, I use GH up/down. My nute solutions usually were in the upper 4's low 5's after mixing, then i brought them up to 5.6-6.2, depending on where the plants were in the cycle.

WeedFreak78 said:

weird...
I'm in dirt now, but for the last yr+ of hydro I never touched ph down, it was always ph up. I've had the same bottle of ph down going on 3 years now, I use GH up/down. My nute solutions usually were in the upper 4's low 5's after mixing, then i brought them up to 5.6-6.2, depending on where the plants were in the cycle.

Click to expand...

What was your target EC/PPM?
This year I started my outdoor plants with organic soil and slowly transitioned them from water-only to a semi-organic diet for more precise control during flowering. Basically just weak nutrient tea + small doses of synthetics.

Chunky Stool said:

I've found that PH-up is rarely needed.
I use Protekt silica with liquid fish/seaweed or other products known to drop PH in a big way. (TechnaFlora Pura Vida products are notorious.)

Click to expand...

Some nutes react to your water in different ways.

Water is the keystone and the nutrients swing the way the water effects it.

The KIND test runs lower the pH in a big way with my water. One of those that got me interested in trying KIND, is just down the street. With his water he has to lower the pH....while I have to raise it....Same KIND nutrient, different water.

Dr. Who said:

Some nutes react to your water in different ways.

Water is the keystone and the nutrients swing the way the water effects it.

The KIND test runs lower the pH in a big way with my water. One of those that got me interested in trying KIND, is just down the street. With his water he has to lower the pH....while I have to raise it....Same KIND nutrient, different water.

Click to expand...

Last time I tested my tap water, PH = 7.2 @ 21 PPM. Not bad!