Smoking Is Bad For You... And So Is Bullshit.

what... huh?

Active Member
The December 1992 EPA study "Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking: Lung Cancer and other Disorders" (EPA/600/6-90/006F... commonly referred to as the EPA '93 study) is a crock of shit. To understand how, and why is very complicated, and I am not a statistician, nor a science researcher... so some of the evidence I will provide is complicated, and some of it is simple.

For instance... a simple, understandable example of corruption is the fact that the results of the study were released before the research was completed.

1998 Federal Judge William Osteen, who had a history of siding with the government on tobacco issues - vacated the study. He declared it null and void after extensively commentating on the shoddy way it was conducted. His decision was 92 pages long. Here is an excerpt:

"In this case, EPA publicly committed to a conclusion before research had begun; excluded industry by violating the Act's procedural requirements; adjusted established procedure and scientific norms to validate the Agency's public conclusion, and aggressively utilized the Act's authority to disseminate findings to establish a de facto regulatory scheme intended to restrict Plaintiffs, products and to influence public opinion. In conducting the ETS Risk Assessment, disregarded information and made findings on selective information; did not disseminate significant epidemiologic information; deviated from its Risk Assessment Guidelines; failed to disclose important findings and reasoning; and left significant questions without answers. EPA's conduct left substantial holes in the administrative record. While so doing, produced limited evidence, then claimed the weight of the Agency's research evidence demonstrated ETS causes cancer. Gathering all relevant information, researching, and disseminating findings were subordinate to EPA's demonstrating ETS a Group A carcinogen."



The statistical manipulation is very difficult for me. My old man has a PHD in economics. I make my wife balance my checkbook. I will do my best... and by do my best, I mean steal other peoples explanations.

[SIZE=+1]Relative Risk[/SIZE]

Relative risk is determined by first establishing a baseline, an accounting of how common a disease (or condition) is in the general population. This general rate is given a Relative Risk of 1.0, no risk at all. An increase in risk would result in a number larger than 1.0. A decrease in risk would result in a lower number, and indicates a protective effect.


For instance, if a researcher wants to find out how coffee drinking effects foot fungus, he first has to find out how common foot fungus is in the general population. In this fictional example, let's say he determines that 20 out every 1,000 people have foot fungus. That's the baseline, a RR of 1.0. If he discovers that 30 out of 1,000 coffee drinkers have foot fungus, he's discovered a fifty percent increase, which would be expressed as a RR of 1.50.


If he were to find the rate was 40 out of 1,000, it would give him a RR of 2.0.
He might find foot fungus was less common among coffee drinkers. A rate of 15 out of 1,000 would be expressed as a RR of 0.75, indicating that drinking coffee has a protective effect against foot fungus.
The media usually reports RRs as percentages. An RR of 1.40 is usually reported as a 40% increase, while an RR of .90 is reported as a 10% decrease. (In theory, at least. In practice, negative RRs are seldom reported.)


As a rule of thumb, an RR of at least 2.0 is necessary to indicate a cause and effect relationship, and a RR of 3.0 is preferred.
"As a general rule of thumb, we are looking for a relative risk of 3 or more before accepting a paper for publication." - Marcia Angell, editor of the New England Journal of Medicine"


"My basic rule is if the relative risk isn't at least 3 or 4, forget it." - Robert Temple, director of drug evaluation at the Food and Drug Administration.


"Relative risks of less than 2 are considered small and are usually difficult to interpret. Such increases may be due to chance, statistical bias, or the effect of confounding factors that are sometimes not evident." - The National Cancer Institute


"An association is generally considered weak if the odds ratio [relative risk] is under 3.0 and particularly when it is under 2.0, as is the case in the relationship of ETS and lung cancer." - Dr. Kabat, IAQC epidemiologist



This requirement is ignored in almost all studies of ETS.



While it's important to know the RR, it's also very important to find the actual numbers. When dealing with the mass media, beware of the phrase "times more likely."
For instance, a news story may announce "Banana eaters are four times more likely to get athletes foot!" You find the study, read the abstract and find the RR is, indeed, 4.0. But further digging may reveal that the risk went from 1.5 in 10,000 to 6 in 10,000. Technically, the risk is four times greater, but would you worry about a jump from 0.015% to to 0.06%?


[SIZE=+1]Confidence Intervals [/SIZE]

The Confidence interval (CI) is used to determine the precision of the RR. It is expressed as a range of values that would be considered valid, for instance .90 – 1.43.


The narrower the CI, the more accurate the study. The CI can be narrowed in many ways, including using more accurate data and a larger sample size.



Confidence intervals are usually calculated to a 95% confidence level. This means the odds of the results occurring by chance are 5% or less.



This is one reason epidemiology is considered a crude science. (Imagine if your brakes failed 5% of the time.) The EPA, in their infamous 1993 SHS study, used a 90% CI, doubling their margin of error to achieve their desired results.



The RR could be any number within the CI. For instance, an RR of 1.15 with a CI of .95 – 1.43 could just as well be a finding of 1.25, an 25% increase, or .96, a 4% decrease, or 1.0, no correlation at all. Pay close attention to any study where the CI includes 1.0. (It does in virtually all ETS studies.) When the CI includes 1.0, the RR is not statistically significant.


[SIZE=+1]Confounders [/SIZE]

On average, women live longer than men. Any study on longevity has to account for this fact. This is called a confounder, which is easy to remember because it can confound the results of a study. Some studies use the term "confounding variable." Any study of longevity (usually referred to as a study of morbidity) which doesn't take this confounder into account will be very inaccurate. For instance, when studying the longevity of smokers, it's important to adjust for the gender difference, and adjust for the percentage of men and women in the study.



Sound complicated? It gets worse. Poor people die sooner than rich people. Black people die sooner than white people, even when adjusting for the income confounder. People in some countries live longer than people in others. So if an impoverished black male smoker in Uruguay dies before reaching the median age, is it because of his income, race, gender, smoking, or nationality?


When studying the effects of tobacco exposure, either to the smoker or to those around him, confounders include age, allergies, nationality, race, medications, compliance with medications, education, gas heating and cooking, gender, socioeconomic status, exposure to other chemicals, occupation, use of alcohol, use of marijuana, consumption of saturated fat and other dietary considerations, family history of cancer and domestic radon exposure, to name a few.

When studying the effects of SHS on children confounders include most of the above, plus breast feeding, crowding, day care and school attendance, maternal age, maternal symptoms of depression, parental allergies, parental respiratory symptoms and prematurity.



A study that does not account for all of these factors is likely to be very inaccurate, and is probably worthless.

That is enough for a first post... everyone is just gonna glaze over it anyway.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
The Congressional Research Service (CRS) said, "Admittedly, it is unusual to return to a study after the fact, lower the required significance level, and declare its results to be supportive rather than unsupportive of the effect one's theory suggests should be present." The CRS was being kind. This kind of doctoring of research results would get a graduate student expelled from a university.


In 1998, the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer released the largest ever and best formulated study on ETS. The research project ran for 10 years and in seven European countries.



The study, not widely publicized, concluded that no statistically significant risk existed for nonsmokers who either lived or worked with smokers.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I have to go to the newbie section and give out some rep. Ill be back.

Reminds me of when Reagan cited a study that supposedly conclusively proved that marijuana caused brain cell damage. The study did indeed show it, but the actual methodology was so wrong, the researcher was actually suffocating the monkeys and THAT is what killed the brain cells.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
I shouldn't have included the radon exposure in the explanation of confounders... because the radon study was bullshit too... but that is another thread.
 

Smirgen

Well-Known Member
A little off topic but some claim that smoke inhalation causes cancer based on cigarrette studies and therefore assume that smoking Marijuana will also cause cancer despite lack of proof all while they ignore that smokeless tobacco like snuff or chew causes mouth cancer.

Has me thinking thats its not smoke but tobacco or more likely some of the hundred additives that the tobbaco companies have added to the natural tobbacco product that causes it.

Sorry for the off topic rant.
 

what... huh?

Active Member
Should be noted that this study concerns second hand smoke... not smoking. I see how the title can be misleading...


This is the study which is used to ban smoking everywhere. I is a crock. There is so much more...
 

purplekitty7772008

Well-Known Member
Well, my parents being smokers I say it does effect others around you.

My parents have been smoking around me since I was a baby.....

We did an experiment in Microbiology class once to see our lung capacity,
and I had THE LOWEST out of the whole damn class. And I had the lowest
time of being able to hold my breath. I got to like 11 sec. everyone else

got well over 20. Made me feel like shit.....

Weed smoke does nothing though...
It actually helps my asthma. I noticed when i started to smoke everyday,
I didn't use my inhaler for over a month...but when i stopped to go sober,

I use it aboue every 2-3 days now.... pretty sad.

Cannabis reduces inflammation in the lungs!!!
Which is what asthma is....inflammation of the bronchioles....

I want to BLAZE soooo bad...

:eyesmoke:
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Doesn't suprise anyone since they did the same stuff to us pot smokers as was said before about the reagon study, that being only one example out of many.

I hate that I can't smoke in bars any more. I rarely go out now because of that.
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Well, my parents being smokers I say it does effect others around you.

My parents have been smoking around me since I was a baby.....

We did an experiment in Microbiology class once to see our lung capacity,
and I had THE LOWEST out of the whole damn class. And I had the lowest
time of being able to hold my breath. I got to like 11 sec. everyone else

got well over 20. Made me feel like shit.....

Weed smoke does nothing though...
It actually helps my asthma. I noticed when i started to smoke everyday,
I didn't use my inhaler for over a month...but when i stopped to go sober,

I use it aboue every 2-3 days now.... pretty sad.

Cannabis reduces inflammation in the lungs!!!
Which is what asthma is....inflammation of the bronchioles....

I want to BLAZE soooo bad...

:eyesmoke:
This means nothing it's one persons opinoin, sorry. I have smoked 20 years 1 pack a day plus smoking pot and I am above average on those same lung capacity tests. However I am probably doomed to certain cancer. We will see maybe I'll live to 110 for some screwed up reason, shit that would suck.
 

Hayduke

Well-Known Member
So, first I must say that I did not read all the copy and paste stuff too much past the r value stuff.

Yes do not believe all you here or read. And yes Ronnie Raygun was a Halcyon addicted baffoon that had a pretty face that covered up the real president and former head of the CIA GHW Bush.

But if the baseline of the population lung cancer rate is = 1 and workers in bars exposed to cigarette smoke have a cancer rate of 2...Hello that is TWICE the rate!

It does not shock me that a director of the FDA does not even get concerned until a 4 or 5. This agency is corrupted with lobbyist money as much as defense, if not more.

The judge was clearly in the pocket of tobacco.

It is really easy to talk smack about any research done on cancer death rates and correlating them to a certain chemical. If ones ethics allow, we torture mice or worse and then correlate the findings to humans...easy to scream from the pulpit that humans are not monkeys or rodents.

We cannot actually perform an experiment that would not be pseudoscience, because of the lack of the ability to have a true control, the length of the study, and of course the ethics involved in deliberately killing the test group.

So scientists just look at death stats and try to "make" a population, but no replication...If you collect a whole bunch of data and run the stats, to replicate this study without pseudo-replication, a spatial or temporal distance would be needed. The former would introduce an entirely new environment and hence different variables, and the latter would mean studies that last over generations. Again not possible.

So the best they can come up with is looking at the striking #'s of respiratory illnesses of non-smoking waitpersons who were systematically exposed to unfiltered cigarette smoke over time....and protect them.

When the judge claimed that industry was kept out off the study...well duh...they are famous for the misinformation, like commercials in the 60's that had doctors who smoked say they liked camels (or something like that).

And I am highly suspect of the fact that some law was passed before the study...which study!

If you do not smoke, being in a confined space with multiple smokers is really bad. I remember when I was about 9 and my parents took me to a Johnny Cash concert. Now my parents both smoked...in the car...window cracked! so I was very used to it. I had to go outside for a minute the smoke was so bad! If you smoke you do not really notice it.

So yes do not believe all you hear...but this is used as a tactic to spin the truth into propaganda for profit.

To bad tobacco does not make men of culture (more) irresistible to white women!

:leaf::peace::leaf:
 

Hayduke

Well-Known Member
This means nothing it's one persons opinoin, sorry. I have smoked 20 years 1 pack a day plus smoking pot and I am above average on those same lung capacity tests. However I am probably doomed to certain cancer. We will see maybe I'll live to 110 for some screwed up reason, shit that would suck.
There is definitely a genetic component to cancer (my mom died @ 25...I'm fucked!). I remember the 89 yo woman that used to come in to a conv. store I worked. She smoked lucky strike non filters since she was 11.

I smoked a pack a day for 17 years. I used to say smoking is a fun hobby for about 15 years, then it starts to kill you!

:leaf::peace::leaf:
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
There is definitely a genetic component to cancer (my mom died @ 25...I'm fucked!). I remember the 89 yo woman that used to come in to a conv. store I worked. She smoked lucky strike non filters since she was 11.

I smoked a pack a day for 17 years. I used to say smoking is a fun hobby for about 15 years, then it starts to kill you!

:leaf::peace::leaf:
Yes I promised myself I woud quit at age 35. And I chose that age because of all the stuff which singles out smokers over 35, but alas I have no life and at this point fuck it, I don't want to live that long with chronic pain anyway. (chronic pain has nothing to do with smoking, that's another story and a boring one)
 

what... huh?

Active Member
So, first I must say that I did not read all the copy and paste stuff too much past the r value stuff.

Yes do not believe all you here or read. And yes Ronnie Raygun was a Halcyon addicted baffoon that had a pretty face that covered up the real president and former head of the CIA GHW Bush.

But if the baseline of the population lung cancer rate is = 1 and workers in bars exposed to cigarette smoke have a cancer rate of 2...Hello that is TWICE the rate!

It does not shock me that a director of the FDA does not even get concerned until a 4 or 5. This agency is corrupted with lobbyist money as much as defense, if not more.

The judge was clearly in the pocket of tobacco.

It is really easy to talk smack about any research done on cancer death rates and correlating them to a certain chemical. If ones ethics allow, we torture mice or worse and then correlate the findings to humans...easy to scream from the pulpit that humans are not monkeys or rodents.

We cannot actually perform an experiment that would not be pseudoscience, because of the lack of the ability to have a true control, the length of the study, and of course the ethics involved in deliberately killing the test group.

So scientists just look at death stats and try to "make" a population, but no replication...If you collect a whole bunch of data and run the stats, to replicate this study without pseudo-replication, a spatial or temporal distance would be needed. The former would introduce an entirely new environment and hence different variables, and the latter would mean studies that last over generations. Again not possible.

So the best they can come up with is looking at the striking #'s of respiratory illnesses of non-smoking waitpersons who were systematically exposed to unfiltered cigarette smoke over time....and protect them.

When the judge claimed that industry was kept out off the study...well duh...they are famous for the misinformation, like commercials in the 60's that had doctors who smoked say they liked camels (or something like that).

And I am highly suspect of the fact that some law was passed before the study...which study!

If you do not smoke, being in a confined space with multiple smokers is really bad. I remember when I was about 9 and my parents took me to a Johnny Cash concert. Now my parents both smoked...in the car...window cracked! so I was very used to it. I had to go outside for a minute the smoke was so bad! If you smoke you do not really notice it.

So yes do not believe all you hear...but this is used as a tactic to spin the truth into propaganda for profit.

To bad tobacco does not make men of culture (more) irresistible to white women!

:leaf::peace::leaf:
I am not finished... and you should have read the whole thing to understand. MOST of the study was a 1:1... and they used confounders to come up with 1:2 results...

That judge had sided against tobacco in every other case in his career. His reply was 92 pages.

Again... there is a tremendous amount wrong with the study, including the researchers admitting the study was intentionally flawwed under pressure to achieve a statistical result. There is a lot more to come... don't rush to judgment just yet.


I guess you missed the part where the WHO did the most complete, most extensive study ever on the subject (10 years across 7 countries) and could not reproduce the results, instead concluding that there was NO increase in occurrences of cancer in people who lived with/worked with smokers.

An abstract of the study is available here. The entire study can be found here. (.pdf file)
The WHO's press release is located here.
This article, from the British Wall Street Journal, discusses this study and the EPA study.


1.0 to 2.0 RR can be .0064 to .0128, which is why you need the next measure... you really should read the whole copy and paste.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Very good post What, it really does add in a lot of info to look into.

The Congressional Research Service (CRS) said, "Admittedly, it is unusual to return to a study after the fact, lower the required significance level, and declare its results to be supportive rather than unsupportive of the effect one's theory suggests should be present." The CRS was being kind. This kind of doctoring of research results would get a graduate student expelled from a university.


In 1998, the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer released the largest ever and best formulated study on ETS. The research project ran for 10 years and in seven European countries.



The study, not widely publicized, concluded that no statistically significant risk existed for nonsmokers who either lived or worked with smokers.

This is very interesting to me. European studies are usually far more telling and wide spread information than anything here in the states, and it is due to one of the things that worries people here so much.

Socialized medicine. Here we can do some incomplete research through studies where people sign up. But when you have the information of every citizen in many countries the power of the study becomes so great that it virtually wipes out the anomalies that cause large swings when there are far less people to study.

This directly shows why the whole mercury in vaccine causing autism is not the case. In a euro study they looked at the entire population and found no statistical difference between people that had those shots vs people that did not.

Having a central database with all americans would allow for such better science than we have now. Instead we have to deal with maybe 100 people for studies that could be gotten with just a few keystrokes and be able to get 300million peoples worth of that data.

Hell That is money that instead of going to these small independent studies the companies could pay a database company that houses all this sensitive data for our country.

Anyway very good post Thank you what.
 

Hayduke

Well-Known Member
I guess you missed the part where the WHO did the most complete, most extensive study ever on the subject (10 years across 7 countries) and could not reproduce the results, instead concluding that there was NO increase in occurrences of cancer in people who lived with/worked with smokers.

An abstract of the study is available here. The entire study can be found here. (.pdf file)
The WHO's press release is located here.
This article, from the British Wall Street Journal, discusses this study and the EPA study.
The link to the pdf is dead. the link to the BWSJ is dead.

From the WHO press release:

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans Serif]The results of this study, which have been completely misrepresented in recent news reports, are very much in line with the results of similar studies both in Europe and elsewhere: passive smoking causes lung cancer in non-smokers.
The study found that there was an estimated 16% increased risk of lung cancer among non-smoking spouses of smokers. For workplace exposure the estimated increase in risk was 17%. However, due to small sample size, neither increased risk was statistically significant. Although, the study points towards a decreasing risk after cessation of exposure."


So if you perform a study without avoiding pseudo-replication (insignificant test pop)...it can be used (especially if you employ the voodoo of stats past a t-test) to say anything you want.


I really am befuddled by the defense of American processed tobacco. And tried to find who is behind this propaganda. Yes do not believe everything...but smoking tobacco is bad for humans in general...you can bank on that.


Is it the only cause of increased lung cancer or cancer rates in general...absolutely not.


:leaf::peace::leaf:

[/FONT]
 

what... huh?

Active Member
After being accused by the London Telegraph of withholding the study from publication because its results were not what the World Health Organization (WHO) wanted, WHO inaccurately presented the results of its seven-year study conducted in 12 research centers in seven European cities under the leadership of its cancer research branch, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

In reporting on the study, WHO totally left out the following statement made in the study about childhood exposure to ETS: "Our results indicate no association between childhood exposure to ETS and lung cancer risk."
(Click here for abstract & url to full study: Click here: Report on the Who Study Click here: News on WHO Study)


The point is that the WHO misrepresented its study... its science is good.

I am not advocating smoking to annoy people who don't. I believe the title of this thing is Smoking is bad for you...

It is.


However the willingness to manipulate data, pervert science, withhold results, and lie for political reasons to abscond with a freedom is ignorant.

I recommend nobody smoke cigarettes. That isn't the point.

The CRS Report Nov. 14, 1995
(75 pp--make sure your browser has lots of memory, or better yet right click and choose save)


The study is bullshit. The WHO suppressed their results. Go ahead. Find the WHO study. I can find every WHO study I look for, except that one.

Inhaling particulates irritates your lungs. The carcinogens in tobacco smoke are dense and fall off at the point of burn unless inhaled through the tube. They are rapidly absorbed by the lungs and not expelled to a significant degree.

If you trap someone in a tube (which is where this all started politically) with 80 people smoking for a 16 hour flight 5 days a week, you run an increased risk of developing cancer.

Particulates irritate the lungs. If you as a non smoker inhale second hand smoke in a small, enclosed environment for long periods of time you can develop COPD.

Think of it like a fire. You can be around a camp fire outdoors every day of your life with no ill effects. Smoke inside a house fire can and will kill you.

The study is bogus. The government should not lie to us... that is the point.

Check out the CRS report.

 

purplekitty7772008

Well-Known Member
This means nothing it's one persons opinoin, sorry. I have smoked 20 years 1 pack a day plus smoking pot and I am above average on those same lung capacity tests. However I am probably doomed to certain cancer. We will see maybe I'll live to 110 for some screwed up reason, shit that would suck.
Ciggs are way worse for you than weed though.

I tried smoking a cigg once, and I will NEVER try again.

thats gotta say something about them.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Well, my parents being smokers I say it does effect others around you.

My parents have been smoking around me since I was a baby.....

We did an experiment in Microbiology class once to see our lung capacity,
and I had THE LOWEST out of the whole damn class. And I had the lowest
time of being able to hold my breath. I got to like 11 sec. everyone else

got well over 20. Made me feel like shit.....

Weed smoke does nothing though...
It actually helps my asthma. I noticed when i started to smoke everyday,
I didn't use my inhaler for over a month...but when i stopped to go sober,

I use it aboue every 2-3 days now.... pretty sad.

Cannabis reduces inflammation in the lungs!!!
Which is what asthma is....inflammation of the bronchioles....

I want to BLAZE soooo bad...

:eyesmoke:

Hmm... so you're blaming your low lung capacity on your parents smoking habits while totally disregarding the fact that you have ASTHMA (undoubtedly the cause of your poor performance on the lung capacity test)?

Unless everyone else in your class suffers from asthma, or none of their parents were smokers, these results mean absolutely nothing.
 
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