Super Male theory.

bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
If youve been breeding or considering breeding long enough youll come across the issue of hermaphroditism and intersex traits, some of us have even read some wild theories on the subject from such respectable and knowlegable breeders as DJ short and others. So it got me thinking.... why is this monoecious sex thing so difficult to figure out? for the past 6-7 gens of breeding ive done on my IBL I have had strict cull standards for all hermis and I see no absolute end in sight, however after 10-20 generations of selection I would like to compare the incidence of intersex traits and full on hermis within my population and a less tightly bred line to see if outcrossing or inbreeding has an effect and if so which has the greater effect on the trait.

but before all that..... I want to experiment with crossing some hermis and regular dioceous plants and some selfing to determine how that effect the inheritence of intersex traits.

Someone once told me that they heard a "Super Male" was a male that produced female flowers and would reduce the occurence of female hermis if used in a breeding program (supported by DJ)

I have found a lot of eveidence to the contrary however, such as DJ's lines throwing a high% of hermis (thai stock) and a few threads where individuals have attempted this themselves but Id like to see for myself so that I KNOW or at least begin to get a better idea of how it works.

and this.
Now here's some Cannabis 101 ...MJ doesn't hermie!

Plants are either dioecious or monoecious. Di - meaning species of plants with separate male and female individuals. Mono - aka "true hermies" are species of plants with separate male and female flowers on the same plant. Cannabis is a dioecious plant ....there's a suborder called polygamo dioecious (plants that have some male or female flowers present on the same flower, these plants will never show seperate male and female flowers on the same plant)



So lets get to it, shall we?

this is a male from a population of F5 A1-1 PinkiPie
started out a purple male and late in flower progressed into a semi female or "Super Male"

004.jpg
 

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TubeAndJar

TubeAndJar

Well-Known Member
So, in order to prevent bananas on your buds, you're looking for males that produce buds? If this is correct, I feel like you're just breeding in the trait for bananas on buds.
 
Abiqua

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Good stuff and I want to make a comment....

I agree with the monoecious, no such thing as hermie....argument....kind of.....

I would consider it more polygamodiecious than mono...but a monoecious isn't a hermie either.....a true hermie flower is where the Same flower has both staminate and pistallate parts and I would bet exceedingly rare......Just having seperate flowers on the same plant isn't a hermaphrodite....thats the basic def of a monoecious species.

Monoecious, dioecious, inbetween....I think it is all from the same response to environment and self pollination...locked into the genome.....
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
TubeAndJar said:
So, in order to prevent bananas on your buds, you're looking for males that produce buds? If this is correct, I feel like you're just breeding in the trait for bananas on buds.
Click to expand...
not necessarily, just want to see how the trait is inherited to get a better understanding of the genes interworkings and hopefully get that much closer to getting it out.

and yes im looking for boys that grow girl parts :)
im not looking for opinion, just fact. thats why ive got to try it and see for myself, and share with yall!
 
RM3

RM3

Well-Known Member
I just grew a land race sat that was a super male, showed male then a week later showed buds, my understanding is it must be a male first that then later grows female buds as well (correct me if I'm wrong?)

I used the pollen to breed several plants and the offspring are currently in flower, flipped em a week ago, they look good thus far, I'll update if they go south
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
Abiqua said:
Good stuff and I want to make a comment....

I agree with the monoecious, no such thing as hermie....argument....kind of.....

I would consider it more polygamodiecious than mono...but a monoecious isn't a hermie either.....a true hermie flower is where the Same flower has both staminate and pistallate parts and I would bet exceedingly rare......Just having seperate flowers on the same plant isn't a hermaphrodite....thats the basic def of a monoecious species.

Monoecious, dioecious, inbetween....I think it is all from the same response to environment and self pollination...locked into the genome.....
Click to expand...
we should be able to breed it out if it were that simple, Tom Hill has been attempting to do this in his IBL's for decades and isnt any closer to getting it out than before (to my knowlege)

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/breeding-with-a-male-that-hermies.54353/page-2
did u read this thread? ^^^^^^

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=136102
^^^^^ that one tom talks about how hes bred DC for 20 years but in the wrong hands still throws hermis
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
RM3 said:
I just grew a land race sat that was a super male, showed male then a week later showed buds, my understanding is it must be a male first that then later grows female buds as well (correct me if I'm wrong?)

I used the pollen to breed several plants and the offspring are currently in flower, flipped em a week ago, they look good thus far, I'll update if they go south
Click to expand...
BADASS!!! please do! pics would be even better :D
 
Milovan

Milovan

Well-Known Member
bf80255 said:
If youve been breeding or considering breeding long enough youll come across the issue of hermaphroditism and intersex traits, some of us have even read some wild theories on the subject from such respectable and knowlegable breeders as DJ short and others. So it got me thinking.... why is this monoecious sex thing so difficult to figure out? for the past 6-7 gens of breeding ive done on my IBL I have had strict cull standards for all hermis and I see no absolute end in sight, however after 10-20 generations of selection I would like to compare the incidence of intersex traits and full on hermis within my population and a less tightly bred line to see if outcrossing or inbreeding has an effect and if so which has the greater effect on the trait.

but before all that..... I want to experiment with crossing some hermis and regular dioceous plants and some selfing to determine how that effect the inheritence of intersex traits.

Someone once told me that they heard a "Super Male" was a male that produced female flowers and would reduce the occurence of female hermis if used in a breeding program (supported by DJ)

I have found a lot of eveidence to the contrary however, such as DJ's lines throwing a high% of hermis (thai stock) and a few threads where individuals have attempted this themselves but Id like to see for myself so that I KNOW or at least begin to get a better idea of how it works.

and this.
Now here's some Cannabis 101 ...MJ doesn't hermie!

Plants are either dioecious or monoecious. Di - meaning species of plants with separate male and female individuals. Mono - aka "true hermies" are species of plants with separate male and female flowers on the same plant. Cannabis is a dioecious plant ....there's a suborder called polygamo dioecious (plants that have some male or female flowers present on the same flower, these plants will never show seperate male and female flowers on the same plant)



So lets get to it, shall we?

this is a male from a population of F5 A1-1 PinkiPie
started out a purple male and late in flower progressed into a semi female or "Super Male"

View attachment 3462049
Click to expand...
.
brains scrabbled reading this. :-D
.
 
E

EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
If the "super male" turned mostly female, I'd be worried about the "super male" just being a "hermie" female that showed the hermie part (male flowers) first. If it was mostly a male, with a few female flowers showing up, the way male flowers show up on female hermies, then it might make more sense.

You should be able to tell if that's the case, by seeing if all the offspring are female.
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
EverythingsHazy said:
If the "super male" turned mostly female, I'd be worried about the "super male" just being a "hermie" female that showed the hermie part (male flowers) first. If it was mostly a male, with a few female flowers showing up, the way male flowers show up on female hermies, then it might make more sense.

You should be able to tell if that's the case, by seeing if all the offspring are female.
Click to expand...
I was thinking along the same lines because it took a long time for my male to flip over and even then still hasnt put on much floral growth, RM3's plant looks like a girl with a hint of male in her.

TubeAndJar said:
Thanks for documenting these experiments that you do. It takes a lot of dedication to do things that don't guarantee good results.
Click to expand...
I learned almost 80% of what the basic canni knowlege I "know" from forums (RIU in particular) so I try and share as much as possible, thanks for acknowledging the effort :D

and thanks again RM3 for those pics, really cool to know others are working on similar projects for comparison
 
G

growone

Well-Known Member
well, i think you're going down well tread ground
from what i read, it's like described, you just can't breed out the intersex trait
or at least it's not been done, or if it has, they ain't sharing
that said, i think there is an exception to this rule, kind of
you do see talk of the occasional clone to is impossible to self, or nearly impossible
maybe there hasn't been an IBL that is intersex trait free, but a few individuals out there that are kind of intersex free
i'd be curious how breeding some of those plants would turn out
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
growone said:
well, i think you're going down well tread ground
from what i read, it's like described, you just can't breed out the intersex trait
or at least it's not been done, or if it has, they ain't sharing
that said, i think there is an exception to this rule, kind of
you do see talk of the occasional clone to is impossible to self, or nearly impossible
maybe there hasn't been an IBL that is intersex trait free, but a few individuals out there that are kind of intersex free
i'd be curious how breeding some of those plants would turn out
Click to expand...
trying to stress out the hermis hasnt worked in my experience not in photos or autos, so its time to start breaking this down piece by piece until we can figure it out dont you agree? we dont really have any other way, its not like any of us have access to proper labs (working on it ) or knowlege of an IBL of cannabises genome, so the next best option is field tests right?
 
G

growone

Well-Known Member
bf80255 said:
trying to stress out the hermis hasnt worked in my experience not in photos or autos, so its time to start breaking this down piece by piece until we can figure it out dont you agree? we dont really have any other way, its not like any of us have access to proper labs (working on it ) or knowlege of an IBL of cannabises genome, so the next best option is field tests right?
Click to expand...
no argument against it, and sites like these have big potential
for example, let's say that everyone on RIU kept good records of every breeding they did
and then merged them into a thread where some analysis could be done
that could be huge, both in numbers of plants and possible results
as a group, we could well outnumber any individual breeder for grows
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
growone said:
no argument against it, and sites like these have big potential
for example, let's say that everyone on RIU kept good records of every breeding they did
and then merged them into a thread where some analysis could be done
that could be huge, both in numbers of plants and possible results
as a group, we could well outnumber any individual breeder for grows
Click to expand...
The only issue I see there is with everyone collaborating their data retrieval efforts is that with such a wide variety of climates and growing styles the phenotypic expression of everyones individual plants would be far to variable to get any conclusive results, unless we all used the same seed stock (would still take a lot of growers) but that raises a bunch of concerns as well.

until I have a "crew" ill be doing these tests largely by myself and hopefully with as much input from like minded growers as possible ;)
 
black jesus

black jesus

Well-Known Member
my sour 60. so i was asked to post my pics. this plant will be a month old on the 26...i dont know what was going on with but was in my grow room with the rest then moved to a small grow box. then it started growing a lil bit. i saw balls last week i believe so i place it outside. 2 days ago i went to check on it now it has white hairs....i grew out 3 of these a few months ago. in the dirt i saw a spent pollen sac but was not able to find out where it came from...the harvested buds did have very in-mature seeds that didnt need to be picked out....im questioning the source of my seeds now...but would this be a super male...started male now has female parts...or was it a herm and the male parts develop faster????

how would the seeds be if i grew them out?
 

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