Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

most fecal matter sucks (imo of course), guano and worm castings are an exception. i don't agree that every animal is fed toxic shit so therefore their poop is toxic. the diet of most bats hasn't changed, there will always be bugs.

and to be fair, that link to the article is reasonably irrelevant. there's not one mention of gardens, or fertilizers. only about shit that is years old and grows fungi.

i too don't like perlite because it's dusty, but that's interesting to hear that microbes don't grow on it...

upthearsenal said:

i too don't like perlite because it's dusty, but that's interesting to hear that microbes don't grow on it...

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So to follow that thought, a mix with 30% perlite has 30% less microbial life. Right?

On a tangent, and in response to some other post: It is not directly about the microbial count (IMO) when it comes to our systems and products(full of inoculants). It is about the microbial diversity, combined with what is able to survive in your mix, through many wet/dry cycles. By microbial I mean all beneficial microflora: endo/ectofungi, bacteria both free living and symbiotic.

Dumping microbes on all the time alone is not enough (IMO). Say the media is straight coco/perlite. Okay, that is literally one mill of coco, and perlite ranging in size but really all about the same. And if perlite is dead zone for microbes, assuming you always have enough air in your mix otherwise, then the perlite doesn't add to the rhizosphere microclimates. smoke break...

I would type a little "cough", but I don't anymore. alright. So that mix is not diverse structurally. As nature has shown, diversity in structure equals diversity of organisms. Boo for someone who nurtures as much as he can out of the soil-food web using expensive fermented plant extracts. Let the tools do the work has always been my saying. In this case the microbes are our tools to produce flowers that are very close to flowers grown in top soil at natural rates (sub-atomically and in color), but at ACCELERATED RATES & INDOORS!

So no perlite means 100% natural. For the haters: My "one day you will me mine" potting mix, ala wayne's world: local, sustainable, extremely diverse in structure, as pH balanced and fluffy as the bio terra plus, and HOME-MADE.

I also really enjoy the low charge the terra plus comes with. The bark is one microclimate, the multiple mills of peat are a few more, the coco, then the gold peat is something else altogether, and sticks. I believe it has a little guano in it...which is great. I'm not opposed to a little animal based organics, especially early. The terra plus is just so nice, and since the laws here are about compensation for expenses...

upthearsenal said:

and to be fair, that link to the article is reasonably irrelevant...

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tried again. sorry, first time sucked.

440+ views in 36ish hours! First thread here! PLANT BASED NUTRIENTS, no sh*t

i guess i learned to roll a joint sometime today! thanks friends!

My take on earth worm castings simplified: good if the worms were not fed sh*t

Earth worms inhabit the soil. The microbe populations in their guts breakdown soil and in turn feed the worms. This is kinda like the microbes in our soil feeding our plants. Very cool. Phylum Annelida rules!

The microbes in mammalian digestive tracts, especially omnivores like birds, are WAY different that the microbes in castings. Earth worm gut colonies are similar to normal soil colonies.

Are worm casting less of a "poo" than mammal leavings, I argue "yes". The same way omnivore poo is more "poopy" than herbivore poo.

Worm casting are in fact a broken down version of top soil. Soil can harbor the same pathogens as poos, but not nearly in the same concentrations. In addition, the biomagnification that can occur with mammalian diets does not apply to castings, which is basically just dirt that has been blindly passed through a simple gut.

For these reasons I say castings are "on" (IMO). If you trust the source, and what they have fed the worms used to produce the castings, then go for it. Earth worm casting can be an amazing natural product that work synergistically with PLANT BASED NUTRITION!

i cultivate my own worm castings, mainly because it's fun. i feed them mostly veg and fruit skins and they love it. idk, about it being less poo than mammals in general, it definitely is less toxic than most. at least the ones who don't have an all organic vegetarian diet.

BUT, let's discuss plant based foliar feeding... you state foliar feeding flowers? now, to me that is counter-intuitive, but i guess if the solutions are not toxic, then you aren't spraying toxic material that will be later smoked... but it will be later smoked, would i want these foliar feeds on my flowers?

upthearsenal said:

but it will be later smoked, would i want these foliar feeds on my flowers?

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not all vegan organic grows are the same, and i do not set the standards as it is just a school of thought in action.

i've thought about that as well, and prefer (IMHO) to do a plain water rinse after* foliar feedings. i mostly foliar the bioboost, which has little npk. i suppose i don't mind smoking a little plant derived hormone. it is a compromise for yield.

*not an exact science, just a rinse off

and sometimes, when difficulties arise (ie early yellowing due to underfeeding or whatevs), it is nice to have the option to foliar for corrections.

i argue with other vegan/organic growers about foliar feeding...old habits die hard

Title says it all, sorry my camera sucks. It was 108 outside the week this finished, so no temp tricks. Yet, there is very little chlorophyll, much secondary pigmentation, and NO COUGH!

Natural lighting and a cell phone. D'oh.

PLANT BASED HORTICULTURE!

haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough?

i believe you can grow amazing buds like above with plant based nutrition, of course you can as long as you give them what they want/need. yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough

another couple picts of the blackberry kush grown on plant based nutrients

upthearsenal said:

haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough?

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filming this week..."no cough" example to come, no need to hide my face...this is what i do.

upthearsenal said:

yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough

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i appreciate the skepticism, in a beautiful scientific method sense. the lab (steep hill) is working on testing for heavy metal content, and I hypothesize lower levels in plant based flowers and concentrates. give thanks for research.

upthearsenal said:

don't get me wrong, i'm very interested in it. i'm a vegetarian myself and fucking hate a lot of products out there. but then again, buying things that are really expensive is something i also hate, i'm sure you could mix your own soil, controlling it's contents, and achieve soil that is just as good for a lot less expensive.

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Wouldn't it be nice if the result of this thread is: a local/sustainable plant-based (99%) potting mix that kicks-ass, on the throw your pens away and feed hella hard level, that anyone can make at home while rivaling the bioterraplus. AND the development of a kick-ass plant based nute system that rivals the biocanna and supplements, that anyone could make from bulk products that are easy and not sketchy to obtain...I could die a happy man.

just a couple random buds. put up for whoever that was.

I have personally seen trichoderma on perlite (green perlite). Granted it isn't being broken down, but that is not its purpose. It is only there because it is porous and holds water. It is also perfectly natural, as far as I am concerned. Really it is just natural glass that has been further heated to more extreme temperatures so that it expands.

As far as your fecal ramblings go... No manures sourced from any omnivore would be organic anyways. Only from strict herbivores. Animals such as cows for instance, or chickens; they have plant based diets, is their manure not itself plant based? Beyond that manures are typically composted specially, or pasteurized which would kill any pathogens.
Ultimately, the majority of most natural (organic, vegan, whatever) fertilizer ends up being the result of another organisms excrement. Bat guano from bats, vermicompost/worm castings from earthworms (which have gizzards), kitchen compost from a great plethora of insect, bacterial, fungal, etc decomposers.

I mean the whole process of digestion is largely the result of a symbioses between other micro-organisms (flora) that are alive in each and every animals gut; helping break down the plant matter they have directly consumed. Thus chicken and cow manure is indirectly a result of those microbes breaking that plant material down.

All this really sounds like is a rehash of organics, only more finicky and minus any manures or excrement from any organism larger than an earthworm.

upthearsenal said:

haha, how about you make a vid, sit back out of frame, take a huge rip, release and prove there is no cough?

i believe you can grow amazing buds like above with plant based nutrition, of course you can as long as you give them what they want/need. yet it's hard not to be skeptical when you say smoking this doesn't make you cough

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Upthearsenal, this one is for you. Way to keep an open mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C8-tMEk6T4

Other guy, this sounds like organics because it is. Just minus the poo, as you stated. Yes, I do draw lines between mammal poo and excrement from less complicated forms of life, very different microbes and risks associated (no one wants to take on biomagnification?). I don't consider home-made worm castings to be off limits. And the true benefit of plant nutrition is the way it smokes. More videos to come I'm sure because no matter what someone has to hate. Keep it coming friends, I got so much more...whatever it takes for you skeptics. Do I need to do a smoking then laughing (no cough!) series with different glass?

Again, I don't even believe me sometimes, try it for yourself and do it right, then talk sh*t.

and I had to do another one incase the first one was too small or whatever, just trying to spark a POSITIVE conversation about PLANT BASED NUTRITION.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mattrize1?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/gjTUdOf4IK0


Edit post: that clever piece of glass (really three pieces of glass) is what I call my chalice. an entirely separate thread will be posted asap documenting the evolution of this form of smoking: ancient times, to jamaica, to east coast, to west coast. documenting InI collection of chalice's from around the world. im such a nerd. please keep this thread on PLANT BASED NUTRIENTS!

right on. i'm sure if you post one, then maybe discuss some of the products you use, idk. get rid of them confounding variables.

i'm starting a grow soon, and i'm going to create a mix according to this discussion, i doubt it'll be vegan, but i'm hoping to comprise it mostly of pbn.

what micro nutes do you use? i heard that using canna is good, but it lacks in trace minerals and you still get certain deficiencies when using their entire line...

upthearsenal said:

.what micro nutes do you use? i heard that using canna is good, but it lacks in trace minerals and you still get certain deficiencies when using their entire line...

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I've been using mineral matrix. its vegan and organic and all that. really low dosages too, just..you know...as needed. BOOM!

Mayan microzyme...I believe, is really good at freeing up micronutes in the rhizosphere. It's what I call a 'next generation product', but I'm sure I'll be hated on for that too.

I think I have some vegan credentials. I reprocess my rootballs - remaining soil with roots is chopped up and goes into my composter with green and brown materials as they become available- after a year a rich humus comes out of the bottom, which is refortified with horse manure and wormcasts and organic lime.

My composter - we call it the Dalek.



And my Russian comfrey fert is totally vegan.

mayan microzyme, $20 for 4oz? i'm not hating but i don't love it...