Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

upthearsenal said:

right, feeding your microbes directly, you argue that they get less in return from the plant in an indoor environment, but HOW do you argue this? to me, even if you have more microbes the plant will still give back accordingly.

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misunderstanding here possibly. my theory is: we (all organics) are growing based on the health and metabolic products of microbial life. and that a HYT for all organics is to feed the microbes at key times in the life cycle so the plant does not have to. this also has to do with compensating for the terra plus, which is actually soil-less, and helping the microbes thrive.

right on, so do you have a time-line for this? maybe considering something besides terra plus

BACK TO PLANT BASED ORGANICS

The practical reality of plant based organics is that there are no residues left over from feeding in the media, unlike animal organics. Everything that is fed is consumed/assimilated/brokendown/ect after every feeding, by the roots/microbes/fungi. There are no residuals, or left overs which include heavy metal accumulations. The practical soil level difference between animal organics and plant organics in a nut shell.

The terra plus also comes with very little charge, which is why common issues are deficiencies. But not having a charge lets me decide where 99%* of the food comes from for both the veg and flower cycles.

This means you get to control your NPK as precisely as you desire (for the control freaks out there).

*number I pulled out of my butt.

upthearsenal said:

right on, so do you have a time-line for this? maybe considering something besides terra plus

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By time line, I think you mean: what specific parts of the life cycle? right?

This gets totally unprovable, and everything I do is based off of theory and feedback from patients.

DISCLAIMER: I am only suggesting that plant based organics has benefits over animal based (depending on morals and priorities of course). Help me test that theory by giving it a try. Animal organics has been tested...to the Moon and beyond!

I like to feed microbes molasses all the way through, I step it up and down (concentration wise) as I raise and then lower the food (concentration).

I would also like to address the fact that extremely sick people (AIDS, cancer, ect) are juicing fresh raw cannabis, not just the flowers. This obviously leads us to concern about what is in the garden environment, and what the plants have been exposed to. I'll take my fresh canna-juice "poop-free" please.

How can you say that there are any 'residues' (things that would otherwise not be present) left over from using herbivore animal excrement as fertilizer in soil? Going back to a point I was trying to make in a previous post: where do you think such excrement (we're talking herbivores here) was actually derived from? That's right...PLANTS! The animal (might) masticate it, stomach acids may initiate the break down; enzymes and microbes are ultimately what turns it into 'poop'. After that whole process the plant-based-poop is further decomposed by more microbes in the outdoor environment, while it is composted and then probably pasteurized before it ever becomes fertilizer.
As far as heavy metals go; some 'botanically derived' fertilizers might actually end up containing more of some heavy metals than their animal-derived counterpart. As a random example, take this brand of alfalfa meal and compare it to the liquid Earth Juice Grow that I use (the Bloom has even less).

Now you're referring to this predicament as "animal organics" versus "plant organics" when in reality organic gardening incorporates the use of both plant and animal excrement derived nutrition (as it has for thousands of years). All it boils down to is that all of this really isn't as novel as you try to make it out to be. The way things currently stand: I use organic fertilizers like the Earth Juice which includes guano, blood/bone meal and other products that contain feather meal, alfalfa meal, poultry manure, fish emulsion, molasses and a plethora of other sources. I have beneficial bacteria, mycorrhizae and other symbiotic fungi, along with assorted microlife living in my soil; I do not concern myself with pH nor do I own a 'pen'.

Nully- I love that you group biocanna with a product like a meal, different universe entirely.

We cannot simply say organics is based on vegetarian fed animal poop and plant products, because it is generally not. I'm talking about all organics, as it applies to the whole of it.
I do heavily prefer vegetarian fed animal products over omnivorous animal poop. Very different microbes and associated risks. You can't just say, "my poop is all from vegetarian sources so you (me) are on some bs." c'mon really? we are doing the same thing, but I'm taking it farther. cutting out the "middle man" if you will.

The reason you prefer veggie poop over omnivore poop is...?

Earth Juice, m'eh. Next.

I said absolutely nothing about 'biocanna', and you're missing the point entirely. (what a surprise) Just because a plant food is botanically derived does not equal no heavy metals. In fact, the liquid plant foods I am currently using are quite low in heavy metals.

Manures from omnivores (which would also be eating meat, and which I never mentioned in the first place) obviously wouldn't be organic. Then you would have a diet consisting at least partially of animal tissues; fats, proteins, etc. and there is where heavy metal accumulation might become a concern (as it is with night soil).

Now that it is clear that you are not actually reading and/or fully comprehending what is being said here (and because you're all over the freaking place), I digress and wish you good luck with the conversation you are having with yourself. May I just advise that in the future, when you went to introduce some concept that you feel is novel and exciting; you might want to get all of your ducks in a row and something like a solid description that includes practical information and references from the outset.

Nullis said:

Manures from omnivores (which would also be eating meat, and which I never mentioned in the first place) obviously wouldn't be organic.

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Well, manures from omnivores is really what this thread is about (the negative part at least).

Is that true? Peruvian Seabird guano is OMRI. I count that as a guano from an omnivore. Just saying, I'm a crazy hippy purist who is not satisfied with using poop* to make medicine.

*poop, a word which has many levels of gross, is basically all i'm suggesting.

Nullis said:

...(and because you're all over the freaking place), I digress and wish you good luck with the conversation you are having with yourself.

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A) super high on some veganic blackberry kush.
B) treating this more as a blog than a lesson plan. sorry, i do talk to myself...maybe i'm crazy from all the reefers
C) and yes, barely reading your posts.
D) uptheA has been a shining light on this thread, span fly too. there are others. time will tell.
E) this thread was completely unplanned and spur of the moment
F) i have barely begun talking about the details. busy replying to attacks.

over 700 views in two days! the world wants to know about plant based nutrition!

"What is the biggest negative consequence of collecting guano?

Loss of biodiversity. In bat caves in particular a large variety of invertebrates and fungi live on the guano and it is reduced in population as a result of collection. Bats also do not like to be disturbed and it does reduce their population as the collectors interfere with their breeding cycle. It is almost impossible to collect guano commercially without disturbing the host species."

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Bird-droppings-and-guano-309829.html

I love bat guano, prefer it way over bird or fish. Just pointing out that animal products can have positive and negative sides.

Hey! From one of us!

http://www.growkind.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30861

"Don't Buy Jamaican Bat Guano
I have bought a bag of Jamican Bat Guano. Now I know better. I felt I had to spread the word since alot of us have or may eventually use it.

Check out the link, this is the summary:

"Removal of Jamaican Bat Guano damages Jamaican Caves; Jamaican Bat Guano should never be used for commercial purposes; Jamaican Bat Guano is sold as an organic fertilizer by unscrupulous retailers, that will be used in growing Ganja; Jamaican Bat Guano should never be bought or sold; Jamaican Bat Guano contains paleoclimatic records; Jamaican Bat Guano contains fossils; removing Jamaican Bat Guano will result in the elimination of the Jamaican bats that produced the deposits; Jamaican Bat Guano can carry histoplasmosis and can be hazardous to your health. To summarize, if you buy Jamaican Bat Guano you are helping to destroy the bat caves of Jamaica."
http://www.jamaicancaves.org/jamaican_bat_guano.htm

and

"Bat guano, often used as an organic fertilizer in the production of marijuana, is usually mined in caves, and is associated with a corresponding loss of troglobytic biota and diminishing of biodiversity. Guano deposits support a great variety of cave-adapted invertebrate species, which rely on bat feces as their sole nutrient input. In addition to the biological component, deep guano deposits contain local paleoclimatic records in strata that have built up over thousand of years, which are unrecoverable once disturbed.

The greatest damage caused by mining to caves with extant guano deposits is to the bat colonies themselves...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano

Edit: There are guano escavators that actually help protect and preserve bats and caves such as done with Puruvian Seabird Guano."
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Or this one here: which explains how important your sourcing be for guanos. can be good, can be bad.

http://planet.earthclinic.com/garden/organic-fertilizer.html

BAT GUANO

07/21/2010: ECP Staff writes: "To be certain that your bat guano is organic, safe, and is collected through bat-friendly harvesting practices (particularly important now, as white-nose syndrome sweeps across US bat populations), you can look for a few indicators. Unfortunately, the word "organic" in this case is very unreliable. However, the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) certifies organic fertilizers, including guano. Likewise, any company that sustainably harvest bat guano fertilizer is likely to make a BIG DEAL ABOUT IT ON THE PACKAGING <."

07/20/2010: ECP writes: "Guano was more or less the first large-scale commercial fertilizer, before the chemical fertilizers hit the market. It was also something of an environmental hazard itself, as whole islands were stripped mined for guano and ecologically insensitive guano collection methods still harass bats to death in their own caves. However, properly sourced bat guano is aged for antiseptic safety and collected sustainably from bat caves when bats are away from the cave on seasonal migration. A variety of bat guano fertilizers exist with different NPK ratios, but guano is generally high in nitrogen and often high in phosphorus as well. "

"Fish hydrolysate is the best option really. Emulsion's are usually full off heavy metals and other nasty shit."

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/188909-fish-fertilizer-fish-emulsion.html

LOL! From within!

"The definition of organic as written in the proposed national organic standards lacks the holistic approach central to organic practices. The proposed rules take a reductionist approach to organic food production that eliminates key concepts such as the health of the agro-ecosystem and biodiversity on the farm."

This guy makes a point, organic doesn't mean enough...sh*t lost the link. Next.

"Seabirds in the Arctic act as &#8220;funnels,&#8221; concentrating toxic chemical compounds collected from elsewhere and carried in their excretions into &#8220;hot spots&#8221; in terrestrial Arctic ecosystems, on land and in freshwater lakes"

http://www.geotimes.org/sept05/NN_birdpoop.html

Word of the day: BIOVECTOR!

I'm not the only one thinking about trophic levels and bioaccumulation of metals. This is not a study as to whether marine birds are biovectors (they are), this is a look at potency related to diet. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/23/10543.abstract

"We investigated whether seabirds that feed at different trophic levels vary in their potency as biovectors of metals, which can bioaccumulate through the marine foodweb....We show that the seabirds carry species-specific mixtures of metals that are ultimately shunted to their nesting sites. For example, sediments from the tern-affected pond recorded the highest levels of &#948;15N and the greatest concentrations of metals that are known to bioaccumulate, including Hg and Cd. In contrast, the core from the eider-affected site registered lower &#948;15N values, but higher concentrations of Pb, Al, and Mn."

"The birds, it seems, are eating carrion, squid, and other marine animals from POP-contaminated seas. The flyers then return to their coastal home and deposit their contaminated prey&#8212;in the form of excrement&#8212;in local ponds, which see their POP levels skyrocket as a result."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0714_050714_arctic.html

and back to PLANT BASED ORGANICS

Lost along the way:
Opinion's on humboldt nutes natural flower 0-10-0? plant based organics i believe...
Anyone here friends with Dr. VonDank? Tell him; we need him.
Vegan line from GH? Anyone test it yet?
Feeding microbes in the soil with molasses (or whatevs); anyone got a take on that theory?
Who wants to tackle the posts about seabirds as biovectors, or guano harvests destroying biodiversity, or fish emulsion being gross?

And the benefits of nutes from farmed hops and beet by-product, plants that got fed (traditional) organics .
Versus the environmental impacts of wild harvested products...? Overfishing, global insect and bat population decreases...

By using bio canna plant based organics you are supporting organic farming instead of wild harvesting...if you gotta buy something premade.
So your plants are 100% great to ferment/extract and feed to my plants, jk

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/world/americas/30peru.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&ei=5070&en=634f690609629f06&ex=1212811200&emc=eta1

On exploitation of natural resources:

“We are recovering some of the last guano remaining in Peru,”

"There might be 10 years of supplies left, or perhaps 20, and then it will be completely exhausted,” said Mr. Ropón, referring to fears that the seabird population could be poised to fall sharply in the years ahead. It is a minor miracle that any guano at all is available here today,..."

In reference to harvesting methods and safety in Peru:

"Many go barefoot, their feet and lower legs coated with guano by the time their shifts end in the early afternoon. Some wear handkerchiefs over their mouths and nostrils to avoid breathing in guano dust, which, fortunately, is almost odorless aside from a faint smell of ammonia."

About the possibility of running out of peruvian seabird poop:

"Uriel de la Torre, a biologist who specializes in conserving the guanay cormorant and other seabirds, said that unless some measure emerged to prevent overfishing, both the anchovetas and the seabirds here could die off by 2030"

Just caught your thread here man .

Doesn't vegan = organic ?