What the heck is going on with pot prices?

SchmoeJoe said:

People in this market just haven't caught on yet. In parts of Europe Amnesia Haze was/is one of the most popular strains and people gladly pay more for it because they understand that it takes longer to produce so it costs more to produce.

This is exactly how supply and demand works. If growers only grew the most productive varieties then that's all we'd have to choose from. GSC is a perfect example. It's one of the best known low yielders and it has a longer than average finish time but it's not going anywhere.

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Amnesia is one of the strains I always recommend. Frosty as all fuck and can be managed as a small plant by starting it late in the season outdoors for casual growers.

Well I would think that depends largely on location re cost to run. Here the heating cost for a green house are through the roof, then in the summer you have cooling and humidity issues. I'm have no clue as to the costs but I'm thinking it would be close to a wash with all things considered. Today it's -28 here so keeping a green house at temp would be ridicules and you'd still need lighting. Not a whole lot of them running here in winter but yes they have a few huge ones here that run for 6 months.

SchmoeJoe said:

One of the seasonal variations with light dep is that you have to use more than supplemental light to run year round. For seasonal extension of the veg period you still need a high load of lighting when the sun goes down but it's still way more efficient. That said lighting is the single highest cost factor so it's still going to be the best way to comparatively measure efficiency of one production style to the next.

As far as quality verses quantity the highest indoor yields I've seen were de with either rdwc or large fabric pots, usually with something like a 50/50 coco perlite mix and pumped full of synthetic nutrients and always hitting the top end of usable co2.

In either case you can't maintain a strong living rhizosphere so the quality is always less. Between that and the fact that high co2 levels can suppress ethylene production you don't get the same quality.

All of that being said, one of my biggest peeves is when people tell me that I'm wrong about something because they've never seen it when I know for a fact that I have seen it. One of my favorite quotes is something like "The absence of proof is not proof of absence". I can't say that I've seen it all and I have to stay open to the possibility that you've seen some things that I haven't but it just hasn't been my experience.

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I'm a huge believer in beneficial bacteria ,
And keep feeding the established colony carbs to survive and thrive .
I agree hydro does not maintain the colony as well as dirt .
Plant do generate their own beneficial bacteria.

It's not hard to grow in hydro organic and it will increase your production and quality greatly.
I get around a lot so I get to see a lot .
I talk to growers all over the country and ask lots of questions and get feed back.
Not little guys normally but large commercial grows ( I do not go to Colorado)I do try to help the little guys all I can but most of them are lazy and everyone thinks they know it all.
I try not to get that attitude but I must admit I am a arrogant SOB .
You can not ever learn anything if you think you know it all and refuse to look at or listen to anyone elses ideas and opinions.
If they make logical sense than I'm all good with it. Of not then I have a million questions . I know I'm going to be taking a lot of pictures of fire damage and material estimates for rebuilding some things.
We all need to say prayers for the farmers that lost everything in these fires if you believe in God.

Budley Doright said:

Well I would think that depends largely on location re cost to run. Here the heating cost for a green house are through the roof, then in the summer you have cooling and humidity issues. I'm have no clue as to the costs but I'm thinking it would be close to a wash with all things considered. Today it's -28 here so keeping a green house at temp would be ridicules and you'd still need lighting. Not a whole lot of them running here in winter but yes they have a few huge ones here that run for 6 months.

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If you built a greenhouse where it gets -28 in the winter and planned to grow during that time you set yourself up for failure from the beginning.

Budley Doright said:

Well I would think that depends largely on location re cost to run. Here the heating cost for a green house are through the roof, then in the summer you have cooling and humidity issues. I'm have no clue as to the costs but I'm thinking it would be close to a wash with all things considered. Today it's -28 here so keeping a green house at temp would be ridicules and you'd still need lighting. Not a whole lot of them running here in winter but yes they have a few huge ones here that run for 6 months.

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Negative 28? Holly shit .
A couple of weeks ago we had negative 18 actual temp not wind chill.
I poke my nose out the door and go back in the house .
In the J manual it will give you average temperatures for any region of the US and Canada , you can base you heating and coolingg costs off of these average to estimate your expenditures .
Glad to see you think like a business man when so many in this I sister do not.
A lot of the reason for business faires .
Last time I was in Washington some business man built a million dollar grow , are t everything they had and the first crop failed because they do not know how to grow or consulted with growers who advised them they knlw how to grow and don't . You will see a lot more of it.
I seen a picture of one of the Nevada growers commercial set ups.
I will have to say whoever is running that show is one bad ass grower .
Really good and I'm hard to impress .
One of my friends knows one of the other growers who has one of the other shops using LEds in Nevada , compete garbage .
Something about LED growers kind of annoys me. It's not that they are bad guys or growers but somehow they get spectrum of light Dow but when you mention intensity and strength of light they get this deer in the head light look and then they want to start a technical debate on the issue .
Its no different than throwing a food ball ten times ten ft or once 100 yards .
You would think it's harder than Chinese arithmetic to them .
Many of them are so smart bit dim as shit when it comes to logic and common sense .

Budley Doright said:

So if he's got you then why is it he has no buisness doing this? Not a great endorsement of your consulting skills lol. And IMO quality starts with strain and then it's up to the grower to bring out the best. I'm not sure I agree with the production limited to trimming and training. Would environment not also be key to production which I take to mean yield? Also location dictates setup/profit models. For a year round perpetual greenhouse, Michigan IMO, would not lend itself to be a great buisness model versus an indoor model but I could be wrong. I've got a buddy who has a 100' x 45' green house and he has had to shut it down in the winter due to heating costs, in the summer he is always struggling with heat issues. Mind you in the summer he does enough volume to carry through the winter. Also this way he gets to head to Florida for 4 months lol.

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You're definitely right that Michigan wouldn't be a great place for year round greenhouse production. The thing is that in most environments you can use passive and semi passive systems to buffer the extremes. In Michigan between the cold and lack of diect sun in winter it wouldnt be nearly as efficient as it would be in a place with an equally cold winter that still got plenty of winter sun. The right green house design can be in the 70's or 80's on a below freezing day just from winter sun. It's still not super efficient but even in a place like Michigan the annual return/cost ratio would still be better than running indoor.

Proper pruning and training are crucial. They're probably just as important as environment. When we talk about environment we are using a blanket term. There's lighting, atmospheric temp/humidity+co2 levels, root zone action exchange capacity, proper air/moisture ratio, temp, microbial activity, etc.

When I took effective learning in my first term at my local community college the first thing the professor told us was that it was important that we understand one thing very well. On day one you're a 4.0 student and after that it's up to you. Before you start that first seed, before you even sit down to think through your garden design, all you have is the max genetic potential of your strain. With the availability of seeds these days that means that you can have the best example of just about any strain you can think of as your own product. Except that there are so many aspects to get right from designing your garden before you even cut a 2X4 or drive a screw all the way through the veg, the couple of months of flowering, the harvest process, and even how you store and cure your product (another month or so), that you literally have dozens upon dozens of chances, if not one or two hundred, to get it right or screw it up.

Most of these things aren't single make it or break it things but quite a few are. They might not completely ruin your end product and waste the 3-4 months you put into it but they will have an effect. Some will bring down the quality. Some bring down the yield. Most will effect both. For the most part they're all small things that on their own aren't too big of a deal but we're talking about a process that takes months with loads of moving parts through out at least a dozen or so different phases and all of these things that don't go just right have a cumulative effect on quality and yield.

Budley Doright said:

So if he's got you then why is it he has no buisness doing this? Not a great endorsement of your consulting skills lol. And IMO quality starts with strain and then it's up to the grower to bring out the best. I'm not sure I agree with the production limited to trimming and training. Would environment not also be key to production which I take to mean yield? Also location dictates setup/profit models. For a year round perpetual greenhouse, Michigan IMO, would not lend itself to be a great buisness model versus an indoor model but I could be wrong. I've got a buddy who has a 100' x 45' green house and he has had to shut it down in the winter due to heating costs, in the summer he is always struggling with heat issues. Mind you in the summer he does enough volume to carry through the winter. Also this way he gets to head to Florida for 4 months lol.

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He don't have me, if he did he would be pulling in at least 4 to 6 lbs a lamp instead of 2 .
He is supposed to contract with me for set up and consultation fees to teach him how to do this. He probably won't t as most people are bull shit .
If he can not produce more than two pounds a lamp he will be just like every other broke dick mother fucker that will soon be out of business.
In Michigan you need a insulated green house with indoor curtains to avoid the snow.
LP or natural gas heat is the only way.
So what if I spent d 2000 a month or more , so what a whole pound and a half of weed .
Many country heat insulated green houses for food.

Terps said:

Absolutely and making your own edibles. What we are looking into is THC infused Beer. I have a batch brewing I put a little crystalline into we will see how it turns out lol. I tried using some reg extract before and it tasted horrible. However I do not think crystalline has much taste other than a bit of sweet notes.

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I would love to check out the beer , good shit brother ,

Terps said:

If you built a greenhouse where it gets -28 in the winter and planned to grow during that time you set yourself up for failure from the beginning.

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Check out "climate battery" or "GAHT", Ground to Air Heat Transfer. There are greenhouses that run year round in Alaska, Iceland, at 8 or 9 thousand feet in Colorado, the far north of Canada. They can be designed for the climate they are to be built in.

SchmoeJoe said:

Check out "climate battery" or "GAHT", Ground to Air Heat Transfer. There are greenhouses that run year round in Alaska, Iceland, at 8 or 9 thousand feet in Colorado, the far north of Canada. They can be designed for the climate they are to be built in.

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I have seen them the cost is enormous.

max420thc said:

The highest yields I have seen come off flood and drain tables,
But they limit the grower in a lot of ways. Next is Scrooged properly with hydro.
We of course are talking indoor.
Yes lighting is expensive that's why a lot indoor guys go to Colorado because power is really cheap.
No I would not compare a indoor grow using nothing but lights to a light dep green house.
Its just not a sequel comparison because one is a green house

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There are a lot of different greenhouse designs and I'm not talking about some high tunnel or gutter connect.

Terps said:

I have seen them the cost is enormous.

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Not much different than the cost psf of a warehouse for the greenhouse themselves and the actual gaht system is really not that bad when you look at the projections for the savings and that doesn't even account for the marketability of the low carbon footprint, eco friendly side of it.

1 4' 100W LED strip driven at 81W will cover a 20cm wide strip with a DLI of 69 mol/day before you even add light from neighboring strips. I never have to replace reflectors, never have to replace bulbs, not giving myself skin cancer when I work in the room, geeez, I wouldn't mind if LEDs were slightly worse, for those benefits. If you have a bit of vertical space you could run 2 or 3 layers deep vertically.

Budley Doright said:

Well I would think that depends largely on location re cost to run. Here the heating cost for a green house are through the roof, then in the summer you have cooling and humidity issues. I'm have no clue as to the costs but I'm thinking it would be close to a wash with all things considered. Today it's -28 here so keeping a green house at temp would be ridicules and you'd still need lighting. Not a whole lot of them running here in winter but yes they have a few huge ones here that run for 6 months.

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There are definitely places where the best a greenhouse will do is extend your season a month or two in either direction.

ANC said:

1 4' 100W LED strip driven at 81W will cover a 20cm wide strip with a DLI of 69 mol/day before you even add light from neighboring strips. I never have to replace reflectors, never have to replace bulbs, not giving myself skin cancer when I work in the room, geeez, I wouldn't mind if LEDs were slightly worse, for those benefits.

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As far as the skin cancer thing goes the plants really do need UV for max potential and as supplemental light in a greenhouse they can be shut off for a stretch of time for work in day time.

SchmoeJoe said:

Check out "climate battery" or "GAHT", Ground to Air Heat Transfer. There are greenhouses that run year round in Alaska, Iceland, at 8 or 9 thousand feet in Colorado, the far north of Canada. They can be designed for the climate they are to be built in.

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It's pretty nice to have a hydronicly heated floor ,

I wouldn't mind it supplementally on a door switch or something. But we don't need it yet. You only need to grow better than your competition.

max420thc said:

It's pretty nice to have a hydronicly heated floor ,

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These are the passive low energy versions of hydronics. I'm guessing you already knew that though.

ANC said:

I wouldn't mind it supplementally on a door switch or something. But we don't need it yet. You only need to grow better than your competition.

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People are definitely catching on. There are a lot of led companies that are including UV and IR. Pretty much every CMH has a good amount of UV. Eye Hortilux is even making t5 tubes that are UV specific.

SchmoeJoe said:

As far as the skin cancer thing goes the plants really do need UV for max potential and as supplemental light in a greenhouse they can be shut off for a stretch of time for work in day time.

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Won't they get UV in a green house from the sun?
Yes UV will increase resin production some, other than that not worth the time and trouble to screw with