which provides a more stable breeding female, F1, F2, BX1 or BX2?

OGEvilgenius said:

IBL's are much more stable I think is what you meant to say. And whatever stress they can handle will vary depending on the line, but my Herijuana IBL had a fucking fan (a big one) dropped on top of it and it recovered just fine with no issues at all. It is difficult to clone and you get inbreeding depression as a result, but an IBL done right will not see too many negative traits express themselves.

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no i meant to say they are more unstable. the top breeders will agree with me. Ive grown so many ibl's. You wonder why all seed companies stopped carrying ibl's over 10 years ago. One example dutch passion master kush. It used to be an ibl hindu kush x hindu kush. I ran that strain. After a year it ran into major problems. They dropped that strain in 2003. Their master kush now is really hindu skunk. Hindu kush x skunk 1

You imbreed any species of anything and becomes unstable. ibl's are back crossed / imbreed lines. They can't handle stress and prone to hermie and degredation after only a few generations. They lose those stress recovery traits from the male father plant after back crossing. If you back cross more than 2 or 3 times. Potency drops dramatically. That last part is from Dj short.

The reason breeders don't offer IBLs is because they take much longer to produce and are easy to reproduce and offer other breeders a chance at making crosses that are much more stable and higher quality. It's got nothing to do with stability. Whether the gene sequence you refer to is there still or not has much more to do with breeder selection and it's not a hard and fast rule. An inbred Thai line is likely to produce hermaphrodites. An inbred Afghani is not. You're also confusing what stability means IMO, but that's typical in the cannabis breeding game - a game filled with total hacks who really are mostly clueless about even basic genetic theory.

Stability has nothing to do with hermaphrodism. You can be 100% stable for that trait. It's just unwanted. Most IBLs have not been stabilized for that trait. Just the opposite.

And not all seed companies stopped carrying them. DP is an awful company that produces awful products so anything they have to say about anything is basically flush worthy as far as I'm concerned.

Sannie offers IBLs. PeakseedsBC offers IBLs. There are others as well like Tom Hill, Cannabiogen, Chimera etc.

Not coincidentally, they are also producing some of the best overall products out there too.

OGEvilgenius said:

The reason breeders don't offer IBLs is because they take much longer to produce .

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the market now is led by so many attempts at seeds versions of clone only plants, its no wonder IBL have fallen out of favour in recent times
they produce what sells quickly, 40 different crosses that all taste like lemon from TGA alone

i agree the few folk selling seeds that are actual breeders doing selection work still offer IBL

And with all the work it's really easy to just copy it straight up. Greg Green's book on Cannabis breeding has entire chapters devoted to this topic, how best to produce seeds not easily reproduced etc.

skunkd0c said:

i do not think this is true ^^
many of them seem like a genetic soup of misfits to me

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Indeed, not true, it takes IBLxIBL to create an "F1 hybrid". On the other hand, it's sort of true, what he said minus 'hybrid' and considering the loosely used "F1", actually results in what you said (F1 x another F1, basically a double cross, or worse if those F1s are double crosses itself, becomes that genetic soup).

Breeder crosses IBL skunk x IBL O Haze and gets F1 Skunk Haze
Another breeder crosses Afghani with SSH and gets F1 SSA

"Others" (with no access to others' or their own IBLs) cross F1 SSA with F1 Skunk Haze (without inbreeding/
stabilizing the phenos they found first) and call that an F1, while it's a double cross with the segregation similar of an F2 and the amount of variety of 4 different strains.

And it doesn't stop there.... eventually you get "something x something x something x something x something x something x something x space queen".

As more often in similar discussions people mix up stable for growing (not much phenotype variation) with stable for breeding (homozygosity, which is achieved by inbreeding...). It's well-know that F6 is (if done properly of course, based on selection by breeder) more stable than F3. More stable for growing, as in reduced pheno variety, because the breeder mated similar plants or backcrossed. Stable for breeding requires selecting homozygous genotypes (that can express the same as heterozygous) and cross homozygous x homozygous to end up with homozygous (unless you actually want to end up with heterozygous). Breeding in or backcrossing long enough can be done as a sort of brute force method to end up with less variation so more chance of homo-alleles. Point is, making a strain stable for breeding takes even longer than making a strain stable for growing.

What OGevilgenius mentioned about that part Greg wrote in his book, is basically going back from stable for breeding to stable enough for growing by creating heterozygosity, for example if dominant, Aa and expresses, "grows", the same as AA, but only the latter is stable for breeding.

The only way to get to the next generation is inbreeding. It's impossible to actually breed a new strain without inbreeding, you can make crosses but breeding a strain true/stable requires inbreeding, whether that is sibling mating, backcrossing or even selfing.

Sativied said:

Indeed, not true, it takes IBLxIBL to create an "F1 hybrid". On the other hand, it's sort of true, what he said minus 'hybrid' and considering the loosely used "F1", actually results in what you said (F1 x another F1, basically a double cross, or worse if those F1s are double crosses itself, becomes that genetic soup).

Breeder crosses IBL skunk x IBL O Haze and gets F1 Skunk Haze
Another breeder crosses Afghani with SSH and gets F1 SSA [/quote


"Others" (with no access to others' or their own IBLs) cross F1 SSA with F1 Skunk Haze (without inbreeding/
stabilizing the phenos they found first) and call that an F1, while it's a double cross with the segregation similar of an F2 and the amount of variety of 4 different strains.

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It takes IBL x IBL to create an F1 hybrid? Hybrid = A strain with %sativa and %indica (could even have ruderalis) F1 = first generation cross of 2 different plants. Bro sadly any TGA strain cross to anything else creates an F1 hybrid. Yes variation will be huge in a polyhybrid F1 cross but it's still an F1.

F1 generation will still have the same variation... 25% will resemble mom 50% will be a mashup of both and 25% will match the dad. now among the 50% there could be huge variation based on genetic pool and breeding stock.

IBL is a must, most legit, old school breeders amazing work is not F1's, I know Serious Seeds were all F1's with the exception of his Bubblegum which is worked and produces very similar phenos.

At school of dank 3 years ago I heard sub state "I like to keep things in F1 so that the grower can choose what their favorite pheno is" So basically he likes to keep them as F1's so he can produce 40 clone onlys crossed to his 3 dads. All TGA smells similar.

Breeders just don't want to do the work, they want to rake in the reward more than produce stable lines. Seriously 15 years ago the only time you worried about hermies were when you had a light leak or interruption in your lighting, strains were stable breeders, the original breeders, had a love or craft and worked the shit out of their strains to get the best results. Sadly most breeders don't have warehouses to do their selections from nor want to spend the time doing selective growing.

I explained this extensively in another thread so I will keep it short...

Grojak said:

F1 generation will still have the same variation... 25% will resemble mom 50% will be a mashup of both and 25% will match the dad.

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Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Fine, since your comment makes a good example of what I mentioned in my first reply.

The reason why so many get and repeat (not parrot status yet...) that typical F2 1:2:1 (25:50:25) ratio as being normal for crossing two platnts is because they aren't really making "F1 hybrids" based on homozygous IBLs but crossing someone else's F1's into double crosses.

We're talking mendelian ratios here, based on Mendel's rules. If your F1 isn't a real F1 (for at least the traits you are trying the breed in), than NONE of the mendelian ratios - which are essential for making it "STABLE FOR BREEDING" will apply in a predictable manner. It's, even though many don't realize it, THE reason for the classic advice to start out with something stable (homozygous IBL...), to observe the ratios, per relevant trait.

A real F1 hybrid is the result of crossing two homozygous IBLs resulting in ALL heterozygous plants (for the traits that matter...). That's the whole point.... crossing two IBLs lead to a heterozygous hybrid vigor "STABLE FOR GROWING" cross. That's why you HAVE to breed in before you breed out, else you're just creating a genetic soup.

IBL1 genotype (AABBCCddEE)
IBL2 genotype (aabbcDDgg)

F1 hybrid with its real typical F1 hybrid heterozygous genotypes (Aa Bb Cc Dd Eg). Whether co/partial dominant or recessive, there is very little variation, theoretically none (in practice even the IBLs aren't 100% homozygous).

F2 = F1xF1 = for example Aa xAa = 25%AA, 50% Aa, 25% aa.

That ratio is per trait.... and if that's a dominant trait, AA and Aa will express the same for that trait.

"25% will resemble mom 50% will be a mashup of both and 25% will match the dad." is just forum nonsense from F1 pollen chuckers. Whether offspring inherits certain traits that resemble mom or dad depends on how the trait's genotype inherits. Whether it's dominant or recessive. Only co/partial/incomplete dominance would result in a mashup. In case of complete dominance, the visible ratios of phenotypes would be 3:1. Picking the AA from the 25% AA and the 50%Aa, while they express the same, is the hard part, that's breeding stable for breeding (i.e. for creating F1 hybrids...) because if you cross the Aa with the Aa again (crossing F1s....) you end up with the same F2 variation again. Additionally, for traits that are complete dominant and recessive, there will never be a "mashup". Leaf shape is a typical example of traits that 'can' blend/mashup, hence the perceived ratio...

Here's the other thread: https://www.rollitup.org/t/why-dont-seedbanks-state-the-if-the-seeds-are-f1-f2-f3-f4-ect.839749

"What is seen in the F1 generation? We always see only one of the two parental phenotypes in this generation." [That's the beauty of a real F1 hybrid... stable for growing, only 1 phenotype... you're all being scammed, wasn't that obvious yet?]
-->> http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

Sativied said:

A real F1 hybrid is the result of crossing two homozygous IBLs resulting in ALL heterozygous plants (for the traits that matter...). That's the whole point.... crossing two IBLs lead to a heterozygous hybrid vigor "STABLE FOR GROWING"

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when i said something similar to this ^^^ a true f1 hybrid = IBL X IBL
folk on that other thread started calling me names, and it hurt my feelings

glad we got you here to explain it anyway
so much confusion in this area

peace