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Why does F1 Hybrid Vigour occur ?

Discussion in 'Advanced Marijuana Cultivation' started by cryptolab, Oct 17, 2017.

  1.  
    cryptolab

    cryptolab Member

    Hello Denizens,

    I find this whole topic of F1 Hybrid Vigour, particularly interesting.
    I understand what F1 Hybrid Vigour is, as a description of its effect.
    And I understand under what circumstances it will happen.
    What i don't understand, is 'why' ?

    Why does F1 Hybrid Vigour occur ?

    The picture below, pretty much sums up the effect:

    [​IMG]


    I'm sure many of you have spent plenty of time studying and working
    on issues relating to plant breeding and hybridization... Perhaps you
    can offer a perspective on this issue that sheds light and understanding
    on the whole topic.

    Thanks to those who offer a reply

    have a nice day

    cryptolab :-)
     
    Niblixdark, Rob Roy and SonsOfAvery like this.
  2.  
    SonsOfAvery

    SonsOfAvery Well-Known Member

    I always assumed it has something to do with evolution. A way of giving a 'new' plant a better chance of spreading its genes.
    When two plants (in this case) of differing genetics reproduce, they create a new mixture of genetics. And for living organisms to thrive in the long term, variation is key.

    A quick Google search brings up 'heterosis' and it's wiki page sort of explains why it happens.
    It's considered the opposite of inbreeding depression.
     
    cryptolab and Dr. Who like this.
  3.  
    cryptolab

    cryptolab Member

    Thanks SonsOfAvery,
    (I like your 'knowledge is power' icon)

    I had also wondered if it might be the very opposite of 'inbreeding depression'.
    I'd like to offer these simple perspectives:

    (1) Inbreeding is deadly (from a gene's point of view):
    From the perspective of both:
    (a) individual genes and
    (b) the collective population of all genes
    inbreeding is a _danger_ signal, it's potentially a terminal event leading to the imminent end
    of this genetic line (in this generation or maybe one of the following generations).
    i.e. Inbreeding signals the death of _all_ of the genes in this organism.

    (2) Organisms & genes, regard death differently:
    The 'individual' organism, created by genes, sees it's own longevity in terms of it's own lifespan.
    But an individual gene, and the population of all genes... they live _across_
    generations of organisms, many genes are ancient, and have been around for thousands or
    perhaps millions of years. To them, generations of organisms are simply a vehicle for travelling
    through time.

    (3a) Parents turning genes on, in their children
    Perhaps 'collective populations of genes' (i.e. in parents) are able to recognise, somehow,
    via some genetic machinery, that inbreeding has occurred, or is occurring.
    I imagine that this could occur for any parent that is inbred. If one parent, P1, is inbred, then P1 will
    turn on certain genes, or onco-genes, in it's offspring that essential amount to 'put more effort
    into reproduction' signal. We, of-course, regard this 'more effort' as 'hybrid vigor'.

    (3b) Epigenetics: Children sensing that one or more parents are inbred.
    If children were somehow able to detect that one or both parents were inbred, this might possibly
    serve as a trigger to an epigenetic mechanism that results in the child investing more energy and
    resources into reproduction.

    (4) Synergistic effect of both parents being inbred
    If parent P2 is also inbred, then we get the duplication of this 'put more effort into reproduction' signal.
    Perhaps this double signal has a synergistic effect. A hypothetical example using 'corn' might be:
    When P1 is inbred, and P2 is not inbred, then the P1XP2 hybrid corn is 4 inches taller than the tallest parent.
    When P1 is not inbred, and P2 is inbred, then the P1XP2 hybrid corn is 4 inches taller than the tallest parent.
    When P1 is inbred and P2 is inbred, then the P1XP2 hybrid corn is 12 inches taller than the tallest parent.
    So the effect of the dual signal is more than the addition of two signals.

    And here's the punchline:
    If you figure out which genes in the child are turned on by the parent (3a), or epigenetically (3b)
    ... and _if_ you could figure out how to turn these genes on artificially.... then you could get hybrid vigor
    without first creating inbred lines. This means that you could get hybrid vigor without first inbreeding
    separate strains and without first having to suffer the inbreeding depression. Further, you could use
    strains of corn which have been specifically cross-bred for pest & disease resistance.

    Suggestions, criticisms or questions...or left-field ideas... warmly welcomed.

    cryptolab :-)
     
    Niblixdark and SonsOfAvery like this.
  4.  
    SonsOfAvery

    SonsOfAvery Well-Known Member

    @cryptolab thanks! My icon is one of my own designs, when I'm not learning how to grow I'm drawing...
    and I truly do believe in 'Knowledge is power'.

    I've read through your post (a couple of times now), and while I can't particularly add much scientifically speaking. I do like your thinking, and I wholeheartedly encourage you to research this more and carry out the experimental grows...if you have the ability to do so.

    It seems that a lot of people are not willing to try something new, and rely on the standard practices in place. But there is no room for improvement and discovery if things are done that way.
    I'm not saying we should all start pissing on our plants or pinching buds, the experimentation has to have (at least) some basis in science :-)
     
    cryptolab likes this.
  5.  
    vostok

    vostok Well-Known Member

    I don't grow corn

    I never would even consider comparing corn to weed

    considering the state of corn these days

    is this is what to become of our weed?
     
  6.  
    SonsOfAvery

    SonsOfAvery Well-Known Member

    I know it isn't a great comparison as the plants differ, but the basic principles of genetics apply regardless of the plant, Mendel's work didn't just apply to peas.
    I've read a few interesting articles on experiments with corn.
    "To reduce the corn's height, the researchers borrowed a trick used by the greenhouse industry to dwarf Christmas poinsettias. Using a growth chamber that mimicked the temperature conditions and carbon dioxide levels of the Marengo mine, they dropped the temperature to 60 degrees Fahrenheit for the first two hours of each photoperiod, the time in which the corn received light. The temperature was restored to 80 degrees for 14 hours and then lowered to 65 degrees for eight hours of darkness."
    http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...dip-suitable-for-growing-in-caves,-mines.html

    I think the state of corn as a crop now is down to GMO practices and the fact that it is purely a cash crop, I bet not many people grow it specifically for taste or nutritional benefits, generally the cannabis community is doing the opposite of this.
     
    vostok likes this.
  7.  
    vostok

    vostok Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]
    try growing out a power flower or a power plant

    and compare that vitality to your current babes

    an african sativa hybrid cross, with a great stone too


    About Pure Power Plant Feminized
    Strong F1 hybrid.
    Good example of hybrid vigor (heterosis).
    Commercially interesting.
    Pleasant pine-y taste and social high.


    Pure Power Plant, a strong F1 hybrid, was developed in the late 90s from a South African Sativa and a fat Indica from the USA. Pure Power Plant's tremendous growth potential is a prime example of hybrid vigor in marijuana plants. This variety is the latest trend among Dutch commercial growers because of its high yields of valuable buds. Pure Power Plant has a pleasant pine-like aftertaste and a powerful social buzz.

    (https://www.nirvanashop.com/marijuana-seeds/796-pure-power-plant-feminized.html)
     
    Niblixdark and SonsOfAvery like this.
  8.  
    ANC

    ANC Well-Known Member

    If you don't have a South African strain in your toolbox you are missing out. I reccomend Durban Poison and Swazi.​
     
    MichiganMedGrower and Sour Wreck like this.
  9.  
    Tylergrowz

    Tylergrowz New Member

    I grew out 10 Durban from Dutch Passion and none of the ladies impressed me. 10 more beans are at my disposal but I’m not sure if it’s even worth it. I was pretty excited about them too.
     
  10.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member

    What do you think about Malawi?

    My favorite aquarium fish are from there. African Cichlids. Not that fish have anything to do with pot. Lol
     
  11.  
    ANC

    ANC Well-Known Member

    I love malawis too, I breed fish as a hobby.
    Malawi gold is OK, The gold is a reference to the better stuff from a region.
    I.e. you get shitty malawi, and then the stuff that grew in the good soil.

    I wouldn't trust that collected seed of theirs. Also DP must be harvested late, we call it red beard (rooibaard) because of all the hairs having gone red/brown.
     
    MichiganMedGrower likes this.
  12.  
    MichiganMedGrower

    MichiganMedGrower Well-Known Member


    Trust what collected seed of theirs? Whose?
     

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