AeroJunkie's High Pressure Air-Assisted Hydro-Atomized Aeroponic System (HPAAHAAS)

I feel you on the seriousness of the high pressure aero it can be investing time and money but i think im on to something really cost effective, i hope we can engage and share some useful knowledge and experience i made my room completely plastic all sealed with tape like 20 x 12 pretty good size space i want no contaminates! no risks, i wear blue hospitol grade booties when i enter my positive pressure plastic room, i made an effective means for fresh filtered air hillbilly style hepa filter and i got great smelling fresh clean air input with a microwave oven fan 225cfm, i scrapped for electronic parts and a piece of 6 inch duct, i know that might sound dumb but i'm doing the impossible with a budget of almost zero. and have lab like environment, and lab like results and no bugs,clean. extra trouble but extra safe. cheaper then getting some nasty pest.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
I feel you on the seriousness of the high pressure aero it can be investing time and money but i think im on to something really cost effective, i hope we can engage and share some useful knowledge and experience i made my room completely plastic all sealed with tape like 20 x 12 pretty good size space i want no contaminates! no risks, i wear blue hospitol grade booties when i enter my positive pressure plastic room, i made an effective means for fresh filtered air hillbilly style hepa filter and i got great smelling fresh clean air input with a microwave oven fan 225cfm, i scrapped for electronic parts and a piece of 6 inch duct, i know that might sound dumb but i'm doing the impossible with a budget of almost zero. and have lab like environment, and lab like results and no bugs,clean. extra trouble but extra safe. cheaper then getting some nasty pest.
Sounds really interesting! Love your ingenuity and originality... :) Would be cool if you had a thread on your setup we could learn more about?
 
im working on getting some hi resolution photos up on here taking a while to upload large pics but the hi res really helps to examine the color of the plants and see the fine droplets
 

localhero

Active Member
Whats up TB and the rest of the aero junkies :D

I thought/read somewhere that silk screen could be used to keep roots off the bottom of the chamber? any idea what mesh size? Im guessing the largest mesh size silk screen they sell for screening.

great thread by the way!
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Whats up TB and the rest of the aero junkies :D

I thought/read somewhere that silk screen could be used to keep roots off the bottom of the chamber? any idea what mesh size? Im guessing the largest mesh size silk screen they sell for screening.

great thread by the way!
Hey localhero- yes the silkscreen is excellent for keeping the roots out of the effluent. Also, you can have your bottom with good slope and a water-beading material such as plastic, and it works almost better according to tree farmers experiences, so my new chamber design will be this way. 150 tpi or something close works good, but make sure it's stretched nice and tight so the water flows freely through. Dickblick art supply has great prices and shipping, under the name "monofilament" screen. ;) Keep us posted on how it works for you. FYI, I found you can use one of those DIY window screen kits and custom size it to your chamber and it holds the silkscreen decently enough with the rubber cord as long as the screen sections are not too large, otherwise break it up into multiple screens butted up together and silicone/latex caulk the frame into your chamber... Lastly, another alternative is you can also use some nft capillary mat in the bottom of the chamber... Hope this helps, let us know how you get along...
 

localhero

Active Member
right on man! thanks :D yeah I was considering just getting some aluminum framed silk screens but unfortunately with my budget now I have to start with the low pressure aero, and recirculate, so aluminum is a no go for now (it becomes available to the plant at lower ph). im building the pods in a way that I can easily upgrade to hp aero after a run of the lp. my solution for now is to frame out the silk screen in 4 panels of 1" pvc squares. to compensate for the gap left by the elbows i will use 3/4" pvc elbows with about a half inch of 3/4" pvc pipe sticking out and then slide the 1"pvc pipe over the 3/4" pvc stub. its a tight fit but a light sanding of the 3/4" pvc stub will allow the 1" to slide over it. I'll glue the silk screen with marine goop(?) im not sure the name but its a potable water marine glue.

heres my design: I would build them taller but I'm fighting an 8' ceiling and want to get these plants to 3' tall. the walls are 2" thick foamular 250 (compressive strength of 25 psi compared to 7psi for styrofoam) and the bottom 1" 250 foamular glued with great stuff to 1/2" ply. great stuff adhesive foam doesnt offgas and is used in fresh water ponds, salt/fresh water aquariums, doesnt kill fish. great stuff works magic as a glue for foam board too. 2"Foamular is rated at like r13 so I will have a much easier time keeping the root zone cool. when I convert to HP, I'll just spray foam the holes left by the lp system's pvc intakes. Or, I will leave the low pressure intake and use those sprayers to wash down the roots with ro water once every few days or so (I dont know but it hypothetically seems to me that the waste build up on roots ran with hp doesnt have a chance to clear off) the water level is skewed because the floor i'm on slopes. either way I know that I can grow trees with low pressure, this set up saves initial cost and allows me to convert one box at a time and be able to compare the systems. if anything, the drain to waste of hp is worth the conversion (and the better stability of an accumulator in the event of pump failure/power outage)
side view cutout.jpg
top view.jpgsprinkler layout.jpgroot block frames.jpg
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
right on man! thanks :D yeah I was considering just getting some aluminum framed silk screens but unfortunately with my budget now I have to start with the low pressure aero, and recirculate, so aluminum is a no go for now (it becomes available to the plant at lower ph). im building the pods in a way that I can easily upgrade to hp aero after a run of the lp. my solution for now is to frame out the silk screen in 4 panels of 1" pvc squares. to compensate for the gap left by the elbows i will use 3/4" pvc elbows with about a half inch of 3/4" pvc pipe sticking out and then slide the 1"pvc pipe over the 3/4" pvc stub. its a tight fit but a light sanding of the 3/4" pvc stub will allow the 1" to slide over it. I'll glue the silk screen with marine goop(?) im not sure the name but its a potable water marine glue.

heres my design: I would build them taller but I'm fighting an 8' ceiling and want to get these plants to 3' tall. the walls are 2" thick foamular 250 (compressive strength of 25 psi compared to 7psi for styrofoam) and the bottom 1" 250 foamular glued with great stuff to 1/2" ply. great stuff adhesive foam doesnt offgas and is used in fresh water ponds, salt/fresh water aquariums, doesnt kill fish. great stuff works magic as a glue for foam board too. 2"Foamular is rated at like r13 so I will have a much easier time keeping the root zone cool. when I convert to HP, I'll just spray foam the holes left by the lp system's pvc intakes. Or, I will leave the low pressure intake and use those sprayers to wash down the roots with ro water once every few days or so (I dont know but it hypothetically seems to me that the waste build up on roots ran with hp doesnt have a chance to clear off) the water level is skewed because the floor i'm on slopes. either way I know that I can grow trees with low pressure, this set up saves initial cost and allows me to convert one box at a time and be able to compare the systems. if anything, the drain to waste of hp is worth the conversion (and the better stability of an accumulator in the event of pump failure/power outage)
View attachment 2541375
View attachment 2541376View attachment 2541377View attachment 2541378
Nuttin wrong with starting off LP- jut remember you'll have to "unlearn" alot of your mentality once going to hp... ;) Great plans, and nice illustrations- very professional and detailed... You'll definitely have to give your hp roots a cleaning, but more like once per week (you'll be able to tell when they need it by comparing your input ppm's vs your waste effluent ppms, and then they need a couple days to re-establish roothairs)... Lastly, I want to tell you I don't think your pvc square idea is as good as it can be. The silkscreen needs to be pulled tight, more than the goop can hold, however I found some 3/4" thick pvc like sticks in 7ft legths (I think it's got a groove in it and it's supposed to hold the vinyl lattice material in place for fences/siding) that you could put together with 90 degree brackets and use stainless steel staples on to keep the material taut- might be a better choice, or any waterproof material that can take in staples...
 

jamesvagabond

Well-Known Member
I worry about styrene off-gassing in the grow room. It is a neuro-toxin, and whether or not it affects the plants, it sure affects us! There are plants that biologically mitigate various VOC's. Might be nice to add some to the room...here is a link listing the top 10 plants for various compounds. In our modern toxic houses and materials it is worth it to have them all over the house.

http://earthship.com/top-ten-indoor-plants-to-reduce-pollution.html

Won't do much good having all these extra dollars coming in from our state of the art systems if we cannot cognitively function. Let's not fall into the health care scam! Prick us with poison and sell us the cure!
 

localhero

Active Member
trichy:
thanks man yeah youre right about the pvc. I have 5 gallons of fiberglass epoxy resin, it would be easier to just frame some 1by lumber with the stainless staples and resin over, then stretch the silkscreen over, staple again with stainless staples and coat with epoxy again or 100% silicone over those staples. these root blockers are turning out to be alot more work and brain power than I first thought lol. if they didnt have to be stretched i could just sandwich the screen between 2 layers of 1" foamular frame glued with spray foam and call it a day.

james:
ive used foamular before and never had any problems. Ive used chambers made from food grade 55 gallon barrels, styrofoam, and fiberglass resin coated wood without any issues. my biggest concern was using food grade barrels that had been used to hold juice concentrates. when used to hold drinking water I could taste rasberry for months in my water, and thats after washing the shit out of it. luckily for that expperience I sourced barrels that used to contain organic agave juice and never had a problem with those barrels. the styrofoam and foamular are only bad for you if they burn, which they wont be burning. they said the same thing about great stuff but its just not true, theres threads about it in the aquarium forums and that myth of danger and offgassing is just a myth. If you can raise fish in it and aquatic plants for 10 years and never have an issue, I think that its very safe. great stuff foam spray is not uv resistant though so it cant be exposed to your lights or it will break down. one guy had a koi that would bite off and eat chunks of the stuff and the fish was fine.

one thing though, only use the gaps and cracks great stuff, obviously not the pest block lol.
 

localhero

Active Member
I had an idea for the root block frames.

sandwich two layers of the foamular with the screen in between, glued with spray foam. however, i will tension the silk screen by spreading it over the first layer of foam board and stapling it to plywood underneath. then glue and sandwich. when dry i will just cut away the excess screen.

framing wood to perfect squares and lengths is probably a chore im not up for, plus all the resining haha i hope this works, ill post pics in a few weeks when the build is complete.

silk screen frame.jpg
 

jamesvagabond

Well-Known Member
I had an idea for the root block frames.

sandwich two layers of the foamular with the screen in between, glued with spray foam. however, i will tension the silk screen by spreading it over the first layer of foam board and stapling it to plywood underneath. then glue and sandwich. when dry i will just cut away the excess screen.

framing wood to perfect squares and lengths is probably a chore im not up for, plus all the resining haha i hope this works, ill post pics in a few weeks when the build is complete.

View attachment 2541952

I hear what you are saying, but fish seem fine with high levels of bioaccumulated mercury, doesn't mean I'll eat them though. We are walking bags of toxins due to environmental exposure, but we still function, it doesn't mean that we are by any means healthy, more so a matter of time. But I hope you are right as it would be a good material to use. I also know a lot of crack heads who haven't died yet, doesn't mean I'll start smoking crack though. :shock:
 

localhero

Active Member
thanks for your concern on styrene, but as most plastics use styrene, by your definition all the growers using abs plastic flood tables and abs plastic reservoirs would all have cancer by now, not to mention the hundreds of other plastic containers with styrene. foamular and white board foam are polystyrene.

from the link you had:

"Health Effects Summary
Acute: EPA has found styrene to potentially cause the following health effects from acute exposures at
levels above the MCL: nervous system effects such as depression, loss of concentration, weakness,
fatigue and nausea. "

i dont intend on ever use above the mcl, and most of the risk is from the manufacturing process and exposere to burning plastics.




that styrene myth has been circulated for a while and scared alot of people so here, i will counter your article with this article:

Here’s why you can rest easy, I’ve got the accurate details behind this half-baked news story. Styrene was included in the latest version of the National Toxicology Program’s (NTP) Carcinogen report, released June 10, 2011. NTP has been quoted as saying, “the reports do not present quantitative assessment of carcinogenic risk,” meaning the scientific value of this report is not absolute and is dependent upon several factors.

For instance, the author (which we didn't even get a name) of Report: Two Materials linked to Cancer didn't include that the report is based on an exposure study of styrene plant employees ... not everyday consumers like you and me. The story they didn't tell you, is that the study projects that individuals who come in contact with styrene, in massive amounts and on a nearly constant basis could conceivably be slightly more likely to develop cancer. Working in a styrene factory could be hazardous, but drinking from a foam cup isn't going to kill you. Eating the occasional foam cup or handful of packing peanuts won't kill you either (although eating foam-form polystyrene isn't highly recommended).

Oh, and by the way ... bottled water, sunshine, table sugar, iodized salt, microwaves, instant ramen, and cellphone signals will give you cancer too. The key with everything is moderation.

In a statement from the American Chemistry Council, CEO Cal Dooley reminds all polystyrene users that the material has been in use for decades. Polystyrene was judged as safe for use in packaging for food and other products in the beginning and has remained under federal safety scrutiny ever since. Risk assessments regarding styrene’s health implications have been analyzed in labs throughout the country, concluding in results that echo a line from the original article, “Scientists say the cancer risk posed by styrene is low due to small amounts in consumer products.” Low, or virtually nonexistent; in short, everyday people are not exposed to styrene in a sufficient supply for the material to alter their health.


All in all, sure styrene can give you cancer. But if you want the sickness to stick you'll have to start hanging out at the plastic plant a lot more and institute a well-balanced resin diet. As long as you don’t devour your disposable coffee cup on your way to work, chow down on your fast food to-go container for lunch, inhale a polystyrene picnic plate for dinner and gorge on foam packing peanuts throughout the evening for the next 35 years, you should stay free from styrene induced cancer.


in short, no there is no problem at all or ever in using polystyrene :D
 

localhero

Active Member
and i hate to clog the thread but I am a strong believer in organics, thats how i grew outdoors, I even developed a 50 gallon tea brewer cheap and easy enough to be made with readily available materials. I took that brewer design and actually taught sustainable farming techniques in kalimantan indonesia, so please dont take my responses and defense of plastics as someone who hates organic living.

heres my tea brewer, its a terrible video, but it works phenomenally well.

[video=youtube;uVzf93kaMKw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVzf93kaMKw[/video]
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
thanks for your concern on styrene, but as most plastics use styrene, by your definition all the growers using abs plastic flood tables and abs plastic reservoirs would all have cancer by now, not to mention the hundreds of other plastic containers with styrene. foamular and white board foam are polystyrene.

from the link you had:

"Health Effects Summary
Acute: EPA has found styrene to potentially cause the following health effects from acute exposures at
levels above the MCL: nervous system effects such as depression, loss of concentration, weakness,
fatigue and nausea. "

i dont intend on ever use above the mcl, and most of the risk is from the manufacturing process and exposere to burning plastics.




that styrene myth has been circulated for a while and scared alot of people so here, i will counter your article with this article:

Here’s why you can rest easy, I’ve got the accurate details behind this half-baked news story. Styrene was included in the latest version of the National Toxicology Program’s (NTP) Carcinogen report, released June 10, 2011. NTP has been quoted as saying, “the reports do not present quantitative assessment of carcinogenic risk,” meaning the scientific value of this report is not absolute and is dependent upon several factors.

For instance, the author (which we didn't even get a name) of Report: Two Materials linked to Cancer didn't include that the report is based on an exposure study of styrene plant employees ... not everyday consumers like you and me. The story they didn't tell you, is that the study projects that individuals who come in contact with styrene, in massive amounts and on a nearly constant basis could conceivably be slightly more likely to develop cancer. Working in a styrene factory could be hazardous, but drinking from a foam cup isn't going to kill you. Eating the occasional foam cup or handful of packing peanuts won't kill you either (although eating foam-form polystyrene isn't highly recommended).

Oh, and by the way ... bottled water, sunshine, table sugar, iodized salt, microwaves, instant ramen, and cellphone signals will give you cancer too. The key with everything is moderation.

In a statement from the American Chemistry Council, CEO Cal Dooley reminds all polystyrene users that the material has been in use for decades. Polystyrene was judged as safe for use in packaging for food and other products in the beginning and has remained under federal safety scrutiny ever since. Risk assessments regarding styrene’s health implications have been analyzed in labs throughout the country, concluding in results that echo a line from the original article, “Scientists say the cancer risk posed by styrene is low due to small amounts in consumer products.” Low, or virtually nonexistent; in short, everyday people are not exposed to styrene in a sufficient supply for the material to alter their health.


All in all, sure styrene can give you cancer. But if you want the sickness to stick you'll have to start hanging out at the plastic plant a lot more and institute a well-balanced resin diet. As long as you don’t devour your disposable coffee cup on your way to work, chow down on your fast food to-go container for lunch, inhale a polystyrene picnic plate for dinner and gorge on foam packing peanuts throughout the evening for the next 35 years, you should stay free from styrene induced cancer.


in short, no there is no problem at all or ever in using polystyrene :D
Although I'm with James on this one, thanks for this article- it puts it in perspective and has me less concerned. When given equal opportunity to avoid styrene in favor of something else, I will- but I won't treat it like concentrated formaldehyde ;)... I think I try to avoid cumulative toxic exposure bit by bit when relatively convenient. Love the humor and the visual of a caffeine crazed guy driving to work tearing apart his coffee cup and swallowing it on the way to work made me chuckle... :D
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
and i hate to clog the thread but I am a strong believer in organics, thats how i grew outdoors, I even developed a 50 gallon tea brewer cheap and easy enough to be made with readily available materials. I took that brewer design and actually taught sustainable farming techniques in kalimantan indonesia, so please dont take my responses and defense of plastics as someone who hates organic living.

heres my tea brewer, its a terrible video, but it works phenomenally well.

[video=youtube;uVzf93kaMKw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVzf93kaMKw[/video]
Damn nice work... Yes, the venturi design you settled on is great- the same design used in nutrient injectors. There is also another mod you can perform on your pump- called a mesh-mod where you use something like cut strips of scotch-brite pad for the impeller arms instead of the rigid plastic arms- and would have the venturi right before the pump like a powerhead (which is what the original mod was supposed to be on). It increases oxygenation alot and helps the bubbles become micro-sized to mix thoroughly with the liquid being pumped, although I think you're more than getting the job done as is with extreme simplicity... Great stuff man! :)

PS- can you tell me what you've found to make a good tea blend? Bat guano, worm castings, etc I assume, and how much material per gallons of water do you find is the best..? Reason I ask is because I might want to copy your brewer for my organic vegetable garden. I am going to get some red wrigglers and do vermicomposting as opposed to the traditional composting I've been doing. For now I only compost components left over from strictly organic fruits veggies and eggshells. But I've read that the worms are very effective as neutralizing toxins and can even make newspaper and carboard harmless and "organic", not to mention the additional benefits their enzymes impart to the soil...
 

localhero

Active Member
Damn nice work... Yes, the venturi design you settled on is great- the same design used in nutrient injectors. There is also another mod you can perform on your pump- called a mesh-mod where you use something like cut strips of scotch-brite pad for the impeller arms instead of the rigid plastic arms- and would have the venturi right before the pump like a powerhead (which is what the original mod was supposed to be on). It increases oxygenation alot and helps the bubbles become micro-sized to mix thoroughly with the liquid being pumped, although I think you're more than getting the job done as is with extreme simplicity... Great stuff man! :)

PS- can you tell me what you've found to make a good tea blend? Bat guano, worm castings, etc I assume, and how much material per gallons of water do you find is the best..? Reason I ask is because I might want to copy your brewer for my organic vegetable garden. I am going to get some red wrigglers and do vermicomposting as opposed to the traditional composting I've been doing. For now I only compost components left over from strictly organic fruits veggies and eggshells. But I've read that the worms are very effective as neutralizing toxins and can even make newspaper and carboard harmless and "organic", not to mention the additional benefits their enzymes impart to the soil...

I used 15mls of molasses per gallon as a carb and then a cup to two cups each of varying guanos depending on what stage growth you were in, but rarely did i add guanos as I already had my beds amended and this was used mostly as a beneficial bacterial tea. as much compost/castings as you wanna use but I just did a shovel scoop maybe less.

I like the powerhead idea, making the venturi right on the pump! I have my venturi intake facing inside the barrel because i tee and valve off the exhaust so i can connect a hose and use the pump to pump out to my plants rather than carrying 5 gal buckets. that is why the venturi inlet is faced inside the barrel, when im watering plants the venturi shoots tea back into the barrel and keeps the tea well mixed throughout the watering (this is super important!!), that and if i cut off the flow on the hose between pots, it allows the pump to still operate through the venturi (less strain on the pump)

the tea outlet is a foot above the surface of the water so i am combining the waterfall dissolved oxygen effect along with the venturi. this is an idea i stole when researching bio buckets and all the research about water falls providing the best DO. That and since ancient times, the best irrigation came from diverted streams and rivers and those streams and rivers are oxygenated by small waterfalls and breaking water tension over turbulence. I figured the beneficial bacteria present in streams and rivers that feed on decaying matter (or whatever) lived in water oxygenated in that manner so I would like to recreate that in my brewer.

now heres the trick with that tea brewer, once you have a colony of good bacteria built up in the system (which takes around 5 days) you can feed out almost all of the tea and just re up the ro or de chlorinated water add more carbs and keep brewing. the existing microbes will re populate the tea in 2 days max depending on your outside temps. so for most of my grow thats what I did, occassionally adding more compost and basically maintaining a perpetual tea. Besides, cleaning out barrels is un-fun. Also, you cannot keep your pump touching the bottom, no matter how solids handling capable the pump is, it will still work harder on the bottom. so i suspend the pump by about an inch.

I never got a microscope on that brewer, but the DO was more than enough as the smell never went to that tell tale ammonia, so the anaerobic bacteria couldnt live in it. it does get nice and foamy though, more than any 5 gallon brewer with an air pump ever made.

obviously this tea brewer is not good for fungal teas as they are fragile and the pump will own them. I do make sure the impeller is not sharp though. softer the better, although microbeman had done tests using a recirc brewer with a pump and his microscoped tests showed that forcing a tea out through sprayers was more harmful to the bacteria than having a pump recirculating. Infact the slides of pumped tea vs airpumped tea showed virtually no difference.

the main difference between my design and microbemans is the addition of the waterfall. Im not sure if he uses an impingement venturi or a flow through like mine, its been a while since i looked. but definitely 100% with suspended tea (meaning just dumping everything into the water) you must have a flow through venturi. suspended tea brewing eliminates the dead zones of hanging filter bag tea, and you dont have to buy filter bags (or clean them) the bio film build up on the bag clogs the mesh and requires that you insert an additional air line into the bag to keep it alive and flowing. so yeah, ditch the bags and its less cost/material/electricity for powering the extra air pump/ and I believe its way better for the compost to be circulating freely in the tea than trapped in a bag.

on that note, heres why I dont use worm castings:

1) its extra dirt in your brewer that will just settle to the bottom and mess things up. especially if youre buying your worm castings from the store, theyre the worst at cutting your castings with sand!

2) its easier to just use your own compost, i threw all my vermiculture worms into my compost anyways, so theres worm castings in it without having to filter them out over a screen and all that extra work. plus hey the worms are helping your compost break down, SWEET:D

I like optimizing and simplifying.

question: how many bio control nozzles would you put in the pods I designed?


ps- you know the "s" in abs plastic stands for styrene. the styrene scare just reminds me of the scare of pvc off gassing. and both have been debunked. I like plastics, its hard to avoid using plastic. im all about not killing my plants or myself or anyone else, I dont use pgr's and I am glad that people whistle blow. but if somethings safe and can help the community, im gonna use it.

ha, my barrel guy has some 50 gallon stainless steel barrels for $60 if anyone wants to make a super clean ss setup!
 

aerojunkie

Well-Known Member
LH, Great to have you aboard the thread, love what you did with the venturi. I have been tinkering with Aquaponics and Vermiponics recently and I was hoping I could eventually test my aero system with a straight organic solution from my soon to be vermiponics system. Nutrients are not my forte and neither are organics, however I think combining these systems (if possible) would be quite bitchin.
 
Top