Change.gov - "America Serves"

Bartleby Jones said:

Compulsory “volunteerism” has nothing to do with education.

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It is certainly arguable that community service has educational value, in a sociological capacity if nothing else. Hands-on experience is the sort of thing people don't forget easily.

Doctor Pot said:

It's better than the way they currently do it, where the government pays for part of your college even if you don't do anything for it. I knew a guy who got a couple thousand dollars as part of a government program to pay for college, but he was just really lazy and dropped out after one semester. Requiring community service to get that money will weed out people like him, which can only be a good thing.

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I disagree with that stance. When the government (i.e. US) pays all or part of someone's college tuition we're making an investment in our future. That person will then go on to be productive, and hell, may even invent something as great as the computer or silicon chip. That is where we are repaid.

ilkhan said:

No its not volintary if you need to do it to pass grade and high school. I don't mind people doing it when they are being compensated. Like the collage grant money or tax breaks for the collage students. But it is forced servitude when there is no compensation.

If it was totally voluntary why set up government programs for it you can already volunteer to your little hearts delight.

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Feels almost like indenturement, doesn't it?

chuckbane said:

In Canada all highschool students must complete 40 hours of community service in order to graduate. Its been going on for a while now.

10 hours a year, shit its good for them.

I think of all the little rich pricks having to work for free and it makes me smile. Its something their rich ass parents wouldn't have taught them. Real underpaid (in this case no pay) work

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So, in Canada only the rich kids get to go to school?

misshestermoffitt said:

I think it's good for HS students to do community service. It helps them become more aware that there are other people on this planet. There are more rude young people with that sense of entitlement these days than ever before.

Maybe it'll help them break free of the usual state of mind (me, me, me, me, out of my way, me, me, me, )

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No, it won't. That starts from birth, with how they're raised. I frankly resent that our school district requires community service AND this "study hall" class, yet has no extra-curricular programs such as debate teams because they can't afford it. Primary schooling's function is to teach the basics (and now sex ed) and make kids ready for secondary schooling, not to teach this kind of morality.

Doctor Pot said:

I'm sure the world is a scary place when you see socialists lurking behind every corner. But Barack is no socialist. Socialism/communism is an outdated ideology. It can work for a while, but eventually it drives the intelligent class away. Obama is well aware of this, and he's no dummy. At least try and give him the benefit of the doubt.

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You may consider it outdated, but it still exists. And yes, Obama very much fits the definition of a socialist.
Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seamaiden said:

I disagree with that stance. When the government (i.e. US) pays all or part of someone's college tuition we're making an investment in our future. That person will then go on to be productive, and hell, may even invent something as great as the computer or silicon chip. That is where we are repaid.

Feels almost like indenturement, doesn't it?

So, in Canada only the rich kids get to go to school?

No, it won't. That starts from birth, with how they're raised. I frankly resent that our school district requires community service AND this "study hall" class, yet has no extra-curricular programs such as debate teams because they can't afford it. Primary schooling's function is to teach the basics (and now sex ed) and make kids ready for secondary schooling, not to teach this kind of morality.

You may consider it outdated, but it still exists. And yes, Obama very much fits the definition of a socialist.
Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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What a tortured view of the world you have my dear. There may be hope yet. You know damn well the PTB would never have let R.P. in, let alone bring all those changes he wanted.

medicineman said:

What a tortured view of the world you have my dear. There may be hope yet. You know damn well the PTB would never have let R.P. in, let alone bring all those changes he wanted.

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Hey med! What're you smokin' today? I didn't mention Ron in my post anywhere. Why is my world view so tortured? What's the PTB? (All I can think of is peanut butter & jelly.) My thing is this; we want a literate nation, thusly public education is absolutely necessary. Key word and concept here being "education" with specific regard to "literacy". Volunteerism and community service have nothing to do with either.

Seamaiden said:

I disagree with that stance. When the government (i.e. US) pays all or part of someone's college tuition we're making an investment in our future. That person will then go on to be productive, and hell, may even invent something as great as the computer or silicon chip. That is where we are repaid.

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If the guy is as lazy as my former friend, he's probably going to sit on his ass and not invent anything. Therefore, the money is given to people who are more motivated toward actually doing something with their lives, and thus the government gets a better return on its investment.

You may consider it outdated, but it still exists. And yes, Obama very much fits the definition of a socialist.
Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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So Barack is advocating the Federal Government assume control of the means of production? The problem with calling someone a socialist is it has so many definitions. In the broadest sense, it can apply to virtually every politician from Dennis Kucinich to Ron Paul. And yes, Ron Paul could be considered a socialist because he does support some social programs like Medicare, albeit with certain reforms. You can't come up with a real definition of "socialist" that doesn't apply to just Obama and not Bush and McCain. Any definition that includes Obama also includes practically every other US politician, and any definition that excludes him also excludes every other US politician. If a label is meaningless, there's no point in using it.

We're not talking about Bush or McCain here. We're talking about Obama and definitions of political ideologies and what amounts to indenturement if what is being proposed is compulsory. Have you forgotten your early American history? What is being done in high schools is compulsory and in my honest and experienced opinion (I've raised more kids than those I bore) does nothing but take away from the overall educational experience and benefits to be found in high school.

Get back to the pre-DoE way of schooling. Make EDUCATION the priority, and we'll see other things fall into place.

Doctor Pot said:

If they don't want to do it, that's fine, they just don't get the money. Or don't graduate from public school. I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that an employee is allowed to say "fuck this, i'm not doing it" do his boss and not get fired, right?

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but thats just in, the government isnt employing us, we employ the government

Seamaiden said:

We're not talking about Bush or McCain here. We're talking about Obama and definitions of political ideologies and what amounts to indenturement if what is being proposed is compulsory. Have you forgotten your early American history? What is being done in high schools is compulsory and in my honest and experienced opinion (I've raised more kids than those I bore) does nothing but take away from the overall educational experience and benefits to be found in high school.

Get back to the pre-DoE way of schooling. Make EDUCATION the priority, and we'll see other things fall into place.

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My point is that calling Obama a socialist is meaningless if you expand the definition of "socialist" to include Obama, since every other politician would be considered a socialist too.

Community service ostensibly has educational benefits. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, just like whether you agree that students need to learn algebra is irrelevant. If a majority of the school board and the parents believe it's beneficial, then it should stay. As anyone who has gone to college knows, you don't get to not take required classes just because you don't think they have an educational benefit.

And how exactly does community service take away from education? And what type of community service are we talking about here?

Doctor Pot said:

It is certainly arguable that community service has educational value, in a sociological capacity if nothing else. Hands-on experience is the sort of thing people don't forget easily.

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Please clarify what you mean by "sociological capacity".

Doctor Pot said:

Community service ostensibly has educational benefits. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, just like whether you agree that students need to learn algebra is irrelevant.

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Mathematics, language sciences, history, etc. all have quantifiable benefits to the student. Teaching voluntarism is not only unquantifiable it’s impossible by the method you espouse. If “volunteering” is mandatory, then it is not by definition voluntary. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. The lesson learned is one of capitulating to the will of those in power.

Bartleby Jones said:

Please clarify what you mean by "sociological capacity".

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An understanding of sociology, ie, how society and communities function. Citizenship.

Bartleby Jones said:

Mathematics, language sciences, history, etc. all have quantifiable benefits to the student. Teaching voluntarism is not only unquantifiable it’s impossible by the method you espouse. If “volunteering” is mandatory, then it is not by definition voluntary. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. The lesson learned is one of capitulating to the will of those in power.

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That's why I've been calling it "community service" rather than "volunteering"; I didn't want to get in an argument over semantics. I see you couldn't resist getting in that argument anyway though, despite its irrelevance.

By the time they're in high school, students have been capitulating to the will of those in power, ie their teachers, for years. What I don't get is what the big deal is. When I was in high school community service wasn't mandatory in order to graduate, but I was part of an organization where we had to do a certain amount each year. One time I helped put up the Christmas decorations around town, like those wreaths they hang on the lamp posts. Another time I tutored junior high kids in science and math. As I understand it, in some schools, opportunities for community service come up every so often, and you have to do a certain amount to graduate. If the end of the year comes and you haven't done enough, you might have to go around picking up trash or something.

While it may seem unfathomable to those of a more selfish mindset, community service teaches students that they're part of a community and of a society, and working together is what gets stuff done. It teaches them that the community doesn't just take care of itself, it needs a lot of work by a lot of people. Even picking up litter teaches students that if they throw garbage on the ground, someone else will have to come pick it up at some point. Some students who are more aimless might be exposed to some sort of work that they really enjoy, and wind up making a career out of it. You might occasionally get that kid that drags his feet and never stops complaining, but I think most students would get something out of it.

Doctor Pot said:

An understanding of sociology, ie, how society and communities function. Citizenship.

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Thank you for the clarification. I wanted to be sure I didn’t misunderstand your intention. The first part of your reply makes sense however Sociology has nothing to do with citizenship.

I studied Sociology in a class in high school and several more as part of my undergraduate degree. These were elective courses as they weren't part of my primary field of study. My high school also had a class in government and citizenship (civics) as part of the core curriculum. It seems that students have plenty of opportunities to understand either of these topics in school without compulsory service.

Doctor Pot said:

That's why I've been calling it "community service" rather than "volunteering"; I didn't want to get in an argument over semantics. I see you couldn't resist getting in that argument anyway though, despite its irrelevance.

By the time they're in high school, students have been capitulating to the will of those in power, ie their teachers, for years. What I don't get is what the big deal is. When I was in high school community service wasn't mandatory in order to graduate, but I was part of an organization where we had to do a certain amount each year. One time I helped put up the Christmas decorations around town, like those wreaths they hang on the lamp posts. Another time I tutored junior high kids in science and math. As I understand it, in some schools, opportunities for community service come up every so often, and you have to do a certain amount to graduate. If the end of the year comes and you haven't done enough, you might have to go around picking up trash or something.

While it may seem unfathomable to those of a more selfish mindset, community service teaches students that they're part of a community and of a society, and working together is what gets stuff done. It teaches them that the community doesn't just take care of itself, it needs a lot of work by a lot of people. Even picking up litter teaches students that if they throw garbage on the ground, someone else will have to come pick it up at some point. Some students who are more aimless might be exposed to some sort of work that they really enjoy, and wind up making a career out of it. You might occasionally get that kid that drags his feet and never stops complaining, but I think most students would get something out of it.

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Semantics are quite relevant to this conversation because words do have different connotations. I would like to be sure I have a clear understanding of what you’re trying to say and I’m trying to be as clear and concise as possible. It’s unfortunate you feel this to be argumentative. You make an important distinction here. Community service is indeed different from volunteering. Petty criminals are often sentenced to community service as punishment for their crimes. If one chooses to serve their nation, community or neighborhood they are volunteering. Students and the elderly have committed no crime so why should they be coerced into community service.

Students do indeed need to submit to the rules of their parents and teachers. The original reason for these rules is to ensure that the student gets an education. We could have a separate conversation regarding some of the more arbitrary and capricious policies that have been put in place in recent years. Compulsory community service does nothing to further the education of the student. This is quite different from providing them opportunities (such as you had) to volunteer to serve. Forcing someone into service is bondage not education.

It appears that you’re implying that anyone who disagrees with you is coming from a “selfish mindset”. This is an ad hominem position. I don’t presume to speak for anyone else on this topic, but I do volunteer my time to causes that I care about. I’m actively engaged in voluntary community service and chose do so without the “assistance” of this type of “education”.

We may in fact see the law of unintended consequences come into play when these policies go into place. When someone is obligated to perform community service it’s unlikely they will want to volunteer.

Bartleby, I've been doing so for about as long as I can remember. It's how I was raised.

Doctor Pot said:

My point is that calling Obama a socialist is meaningless if you expand the definition of "socialist" to include Obama, since every other politician would be considered a socialist too.

Community service ostensibly has educational benefits. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, just like whether you agree that students need to learn algebra is irrelevant. If a majority of the school board and the parents believe it's beneficial, then it should stay. As anyone who has gone to college knows, you don't get to not take required classes just because you don't think they have an educational benefit.

And how exactly does community service take away from education? And what type of community service are we talking about here?

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Come on, you're going to try to suggest that community service does the same thing as literacy? The community service requirement was fairly liberal as to what was acceptable as I recollect. However, as he'd already spent the summer helping build handicap access ramps for a friend who'd been in a bad accident, his requirement was already fulfilled.

I still stand by my assertion that it takes away from education when we're still battling with math teachers who don't know math, English teachers who can't spell or punctuate, and history teachers who haven't even read the fucking book. It is more important that our kids get those basics FIRST, before we worry about adding something new to the game. The DoE is broken and broke our schooling as far as I'm concerned, and that detracts from the nation as a whole. This community service bullshit is not going to do a thing to fix that.

Doctor Pot said:

While it may seem unfathomable to those of a more selfish mindset, community service teaches students that they're part of a community and of a society, and working together is what gets stuff done. It teaches them that the community doesn't just take care of itself, it needs a lot of work by a lot of people. Even picking up litter teaches students that if they throw garbage on the ground, someone else will have to come pick it up at some point. Some students who are more aimless might be exposed to some sort of work that they really enjoy, and wind up making a career out of it. You might occasionally get that kid that drags his feet and never stops complaining, but I think most students would get something out of it.

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How dare you imply that because someone doesn't agree with mandatory or compulsory community service that they are "of a more selfish mindset"?

Out of curiosity, how many kids have you raised to adulthood? Would you consider raising the children of others incapable of providing suitable, comfortable, and stable home environments a community service? Could you concede that someone who has had the types of direct experiences with children and their education as I have may have a valid standpoint? Finally, semantics are very important, for if we don't agree or understand what the other means, we're not really going to get anywhere. I hated that class when I was taking it, but am ultimately very glad I did.

I really don't like the Idea of makeing people "Volenteer" to join youth groups that teach kids thier world view. Its like Komsomal or dare I say it the Hitler youth. Thats what these groups did tought a world view. So you can see my problem with this. And unfortunatly the price of freedom is eternal vigalence. Sorry if some of our oppinions on this differ with your world view I encurage you to send your children to go and "Volinteer" for these government social manipulation groups if you like. I may allow them to if they want. But that would be mine and my childs choice not yours and not the Governments to make.

Bartleby Jones said:

Thank you for the clarification. I wanted to be sure I didn’t misunderstand your intention. The first part of your reply makes sense however Sociology has nothing to do with citizenship.

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What do you mean? They're very closely related. Either way, I think they're both things you'd learn from community service.

I studied Sociology in a class in high school and several more as part of my undergraduate degree. These were elective courses as they weren't part of my primary field of study. My high school also had a class in government and citizenship (civics) as part of the core curriculum. It seems that students have plenty of opportunities to understand either of these topics in school without compulsory service.

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I had a class in sociology. Can't remember a damn thing from it. Maybe I learned something, but I have no idea what. But I distinctly remember all the volunteering and community service I did.

Semantics are quite relevant to this conversation because words do have different connotations. I would like to be sure I have a clear understanding of what you’re trying to say and I’m trying to be as clear and concise as possible. It’s unfortunate you feel this to be argumentative. You make an important distinction here. Community service is indeed different from volunteering. Petty criminals are often sentenced to community service as punishment for their crimes. If one chooses to serve their nation, community or neighborhood they are volunteering. Students and the elderly have committed no crime so why should they be coerced into community service.

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Community service can refer to what criminals are required to do, but it can also refer to just serving your community. I can sort of see your point. If you do something of your own free will, you believe that's commendable, but if you are required to do it, then it's just something you had to do anyway and loses its nobility, or whatever you want to call it. Still, the community service requirements typically give you a long time and a huge array of options. So you essentially are volunteering, since you're choosing what to devote your time to.

Students do indeed need to submit to the rules of their parents and teachers. The original reason for these rules is to ensure that the student gets an education. We could have a separate conversation regarding some of the more arbitrary and capricious policies that have been put in place in recent years. Compulsory community service does nothing to further the education of the student. This is quite different from providing them opportunities (such as you had) to volunteer to serve. Forcing someone into service is bondage not education.

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It's all how you look at it. If it's stuff you would've done anyway, nothing really changes. If not, you have to do some work.

It appears that you’re implying that anyone who disagrees with you is coming from a “selfish mindset”. This is an ad hominem position. I don’t presume to speak for anyone else on this topic, but I do volunteer my time to causes that I care about. I’m actively engaged in voluntary community service and chose do so without the “assistance” of this type of “education”.

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Sorry, I thought I caught some Objectivist rhetoric coming from you and if that's not the case, I apologize. Objectivists do not think of the word "selfish" as an insult. This might explain why they never tip and charge their mothers for doing favors.

We may in fact see the law of unintended consequences come into play when these policies go into place. When someone is obligated to perform community service it’s unlikely they will want to volunteer.

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I was obliged to do a lot of things in school that I later ended up enjoying.

Seamaiden said:

Bartleby, I've been doing so for about as long as I can remember. It's how I was raised.

Come on, you're going to try to suggest that community service does the same thing as literacy? The community service requirement was fairly liberal as to what was acceptable as I recollect. However, as he'd already spent the summer helping build handicap access ramps for a friend who'd been in a bad accident, his requirement was already fulfilled.

I still stand by my assertion that it takes away from education when we're still battling with math teachers who don't know math, English teachers who can't spell or punctuate, and history teachers who haven't even read the fucking book. It is more important that our kids get those basics FIRST, before we worry about adding something new to the game. The DoE is broken and broke our schooling as far as I'm concerned, and that detracts from the nation as a whole. This community service bullshit is not going to do a thing to fix that.

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Fixing teacher problems costs money. Having a community service requirement costs nothing, and the community gets something out of it. It's meant to supplement, not replace other things.

How dare you imply that because someone doesn't agree with mandatory or compulsory community service that they are "of a more selfish mindset"?

Out of curiosity, how many kids have you raised to adulthood? Would you consider raising the children of others incapable of providing suitable, comfortable, and stable home environments a community service? Could you concede that someone who has had the types of direct experiences with children and their education as I have may have a valid standpoint?

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I was talking to Bartleby, and I mistakenly responded based on the assumption that he was using Objectivist rhetoric. I'm sorry if you were offended. My point was that a selfish person would not see value in community service or volunteering in general, not necessarily a community service requirement. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that you're selfish.

Finally, semantics are very important, for if we don't agree or understand what the other means, we're not really going to get anywhere. I hated that class when I was taking it, but am ultimately very glad I did.

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Yes, which is exactly why I didn't want to get into an argument on semantics and chose my words carefully in order to avoid getting into that argument.

I don't really want to keep arguing this because we keep repeating the same things. However, I had to do various forms of community service throughout high school. Even if it was not a requirement to graduate, I was often pressured into doing it by teachers or parents. If I had been free to choose, I probably would have stayed home and played video games, but you know, I'm really glad I did, and I have good memories from those times. Just my opinion, that's all.

Doctor Pot said:

What do you mean? They're very closely related. Either way, I think they're both things you'd learn from community service.

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Sociology is the study of societies and human behavior within them. It is an objective social science and as such requires the observer to intentionally disengage from the subject. Sociology and community service are unrelated.

I had a class in sociology. Can't remember a damn thing from it. Maybe I learned something, but I have no idea what. But I distinctly remember all the volunteering and community service I did.

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If you don’t remember anything from your sociology class then why use it to support your argument? I’m glad you remember all the community service you did. It feels wonderful to help others and advance causes that you believe in. I encourage you to continue volunteering but I would never force you to do so.

Community service can refer to what criminals are required to do, but it can also refer to just serving your community. I can sort of see your point. If you do something of your own free will, you believe that's commendable, but if you are required to do it, then it's just something you had to do anyway and loses its nobility, or whatever you want to call it. Still, the community service requirements typically give you a long time and a huge array of options. So you essentially are volunteering, since you're choosing what to devote your time to.

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The issue is that this service is compulsory. Regardless of the array of options offered the service is still required. You are not “essentially volunteering” in some way.

It's all how you look at it. If it's stuff you would've done anyway, nothing really changes. If not, you have to do some work.

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If you would have done it anyway you would have been a volunteer and coercion would be unnecessary. If you wouldn’t have volunteered its work that your not compensated for. What is the definition of work without compensation?

Sorry, I thought I caught some Objectivist rhetoric coming from you and if that's not the case, I apologize. Objectivists do not think of the word "selfish" as an insult. This might explain why they never tip and charge their mothers for doing favors.

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I think government should exist for the individual(s) rather than the other way around. If you want to label me as an Objectivist because of this so be it. I’m not an Objectivist but I am a student of philosophy. Your description of objectivism is an oversimplification and inaccurate.

medicineman said:

Geeze, I guess you guys/gal call this constructive debate, seems like a lot of repeat and wasted rhetoric to me, But what do I know. I've done some unrequired community service, and rather enjoyed it. Just my opinion. I also don't think having high school kids do a little community service to earn college funds is so atrocious, even the spoiled rich kids should be required to do some. Seems to me it would be good for self motivation and learning work ethics, something a lot of highschool kids lack. This is not a published paper on community service, so criticism is not required.

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I don't know, I think it's a form of growing pains, and I also think the debate is healthy. We make statements, and then we have to both support those statements and clarify them.

The idea of community service in exchange for college tuition is great, it's just like the G.I. bill and other programs we already have in place. However, do you really think that the high school kids who are already suffering from a lack of integrity are really going to learn all that much about it by being forced to do community service in order to graduate? Work ethics fall into this category for discussion purposes.

Personally, I think that type education begins LONG before they hit high school, and a little community service requirement is not going to change much at all in terms of the bigger picture or the end result.

I stand firm on the premise that actual education, at this point in time, is the priority for primary school-age children. I also happen to have a problem with the concept and practice of giving homework for k-2nd grades as I feel it's age-inappropriate. But, that's a whole other debate.

Doc, thanks for clarifying your position.

also happen to have a problem with the concept and practice of giving homework for k-2nd grades as I feel it's age-inappropriate. But, that's a whole other debate.

I whole heartdly agree with this premis. I have a first grader and a second grader living with me, (Grandkids) and having them do homework is perplexing to me. seems like they should be doing this stuff in class.

They should be, and in the meantime they're being robbed of their childhood. I understand the concept of getting them accustomed to doing schoolwork, but human children are human children and they must have their play time after school. I battled very hard with my kids' teachers over this issue.