Droopy leaves, what's going on?

Aussieaceae · Oct 23, 2020

Laux said:
Thank you man for your kindness. You are really helping me.

After the last watering with run off, she seems a lot happier. Still not the best condition, but it's still something.
I will follow every your advice. I will water again tomorrow or in a couple of days with 6.5-7 Ph and I will try anyway to measure the runoff.
Then, depending on the current situation, I will try to start with very low dose nutes.

Hey man, no worries at all. Glad things are turning around.

Good plan. Keep playing things by ear, and if anything pops up, don't hesitate.

So long as you're seeing improvement, you are on the right track. Honestly probably take at least several more days to come right around.
Just be patient.

All the best.

Laux · Oct 25, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
Good plan. Keep playing things by ear, and if anything pops up, don't hesitate.

Thank you again man for your help.

I have some news: today I have watered with 6.4 PH and I got a runoff with 5.7 PH and 1.6 EC.
I think next time I will try to decrease the water PH a little less (like 6.7), but EC seems quite fine now.
I will start with nutes next time, because the plant is showing some strange deficiency on the bigger fan leaves (which are incredibly important and I don't want to lose them).
The leaves shows some lighter color (not perfectly distributed) with some weird dark dots.

EDIT: the pictures don't really show what's going on. The picture from below is more explanatory.

Aussieaceae · Oct 25, 2020

Laux said:
Thank you again man for your help.

I have some news: today I have watered with 6.4 PH and I got a runoff with 5.7 PH and 1.6 EC.
I think next time I will try to decrease the water PH a little less (like 6.7), but EC seems quite fine now.
I will start with nutes next time, because the plant is showing some strange deficiency on the bigger fan leaves (which are incredibly important and I don't want to lose them).
The leaves shows some lighter color (not perfectly distributed) with some weird dark dots.

EDIT: the pictures don't really show what's going on. The picture from below is more explanatory.

Wouldn't worry about the waste's ph. And ph the feed to 6.5 or so, 1.0 EC. I wouldn't ph your plain water any less than 6.5. They should respond well to the nutrient.
Be mindful not to overwater. Every 2-3 days seems a bit too often. If you're just putting your finger in the top layer of soil to gauge when, then you likely are. Get used to the pot's weight.

Laux · Oct 27, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
Be mindful not to overwater. Every 2-3 days seems a bit too often. If you're just putting your finger in the top layer of soil to gauge when, then you likely are. Get used to the pot's weight.

Thank you mate, I will try to get used to the pot's weight.
As you can see, a deficiency is showing up in some leaves. Do you think it can be calcium?

Laux · Nov 9, 2020

It's time to give an update to the post.
10 days ago was time to give the very first nutes, 1ml/2L dosage, ph corrected.
The day after it was pretty droopy so I was thinking it could have been a salt buildup.
Here's the situation today, it seems a little better. Anyway new growth seems pretty lighter, older leaves have yellow between veins, I'm wondering if it can be a magnesium or sulfur deficiency.
I think I will try to give again some epsom salt, maybe foliar.

Aussieaceae · Nov 9, 2020

Laux said:
It's time to give an update to the post.
10 days ago was time to give the very first nutes, 1ml/2L dosage, ph corrected.
The day after it was pretty droopy so I was thinking it could have been a salt buildup.
Here's the situation today, it seems a little better. Anyway new growth seems pretty lighter, older leaves have yellow between veins, I'm wondering if it can be a magnesium or sulfur deficiency.
I think I will try to give again some epsom salt, maybe foliar.

Hey mate awesome, looks to be turning around huh?

If you're going to supplement Epsom salt, then use only a smidgen. When i use it myself, i've never gone more than about a tbsp./ 10L watering can.

To be really honest I believe much of your worries in the beginning, was the combination of watering too frequently and inadequately when you did. (not watering until saturated, and until small amount of waste / runoff.
Which lead to root disease and / or lockout.

Watch you don't water too often, keep fertilizer to a small amount and run a little waste each time, and you should be fine.

Laux said:
Thank you mate, I will try to get used to the pot's weight.
As you can see, a deficiency is showing up in some leaves. Do you think it can be calcium?

Also really want to stress, that plant droop after watering is almost always a sign of root disease, poor aeration, or both.
It's a dead give away most of the time.

Good luck with the rest of your grow. Definitely looking better! :leaf:

Laux · Nov 13, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
Hey mate awesome, looks to be turning around huh?

Thank you mate, it looks better but there is still something wrong.
I'm still watering to run off but I can see some signs of deficiency/lockout.
Run off PH yesterday was a little bit off (5.6) too.
Still wondering what's going on.

Aussieaceae · Nov 13, 2020

Laux said:
Thank you mate, it looks better but there is still something wrong.
I'm still watering to run off but I can see some signs of deficiency/lockout.
Run off PH yesterday was a little bit off (5.6) too.
Still wondering what's going on.

Hey man,

What's your current input's total ppm?
What's your current input's pH with nutes?
What have you been ph'ing plain water to?
How frequent are waterings and feeds at the moment?
Same 5-6-4 and 1tbsp Epsom / 10L water only so far, no changes? And when was it's first feed? Plus how many has it had since?

How powerful is your light!? And how close is it?

P.S. something you've done since your last update has made them take a bit of a dive.

Laux · Nov 13, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
What's your current input's total ppm?
What's your current input's pH with nutes?
What have you been ph'ing plain water to?
How frequent are waterings and feeds at the moment?
Same 5-6-4 and 1tbsp Epsom / 10L water only so far, no changes? And when was it's first feed? Plus how many has it had since?

Thank you man again for your kindness, you are the only one who can help me.

I will write here all the schedule.
Plain water should be 7.9 PH and 0.4 EC (8.1 for the cheap chinese ph meter, I'm sure it is not perfectly calibrated). I correct it with 1ml of plagron lemon kick every time I water (7 PH with cheap pen, so I think it is 6.8 ).
I usually water, then 2 or 3 days no water, and the next day I water.
9 sectember - first seedling
14 october (36 days old) - 0,3ml/1L Bio magno fioritura OM
19 october - 1/2 tsp./ 1.5L Epsom salt (1 EC)
Here's when drooping problem came out.
28 october - 0,7ml/2L Bio magno fioritura OM (6.8 PH, 0.8 EC)
29 october - here is when the plant was very droopy, the worst day I can say, but it got better after a couple of waterings (where runoff EC was pretty high, 2.3) as you could see in the monday update.
8 november - best condition, monday picture. That day, I had to do some LST just to give more space between branches. I didn't have any problem, just a broken leaf.
12 november - a very small sparkle of epsom/2L (6.8 PH, 0.7 EC, runoff 5.6, 1.6 EC)
13 november - today's picture

If it can be helpful, I have the smaller sister (13 days younger) which has been living in the same soil compost. It has been fertilized only once with minimum doses (0.5ml/1.5L Bio Magno on 1 november) but it is doing great. Just a couple of top leaves getting very red, maybe phenotype.

Aussieaceae said:
How powerful is your light!? And how close is it?

It is a cheap quantum board 120w, max dimmered, far 13' from the plant.

I really don't know what's going on. I'm sure humidity and temperature are perfect.
I'm not sure if it can be a lockout, that's the problem, as you can see it didn't get so much nutes. I didn't even get to the recommended dosate (1ml/1L).

Aussieaceae · Nov 13, 2020

Laux said:
Thank you man again for your kindness, you are the only one who can help me.

I will write here all the schedule.
Plain water should be 7.9 PH and 0.4 EC (8.1 for the cheap chinese ph meter, I'm sure it is not perfectly calibrated). I correct it with 1ml of plagron lemon kick every time I water (7 PH with cheap pen, so I think it is 6.8 ).
I usually water, then 2 or 3 days no water, and the next day I water.
9 sectember - first seedling
14 october (36 days old) - 0,3ml/1L Bio magno fioritura OM
19 october - 1/2 tsp./ 1.5L Epsom salt (1 EC)
Here's when drooping problem came out.
28 october - 0,7ml/2L Bio magno fioritura OM (6.8 PH, 0.8 EC)
29 october - here is when the plant was very droopy, the worst day I can say, but it got better after a couple of waterings (where runoff EC was pretty high, 2.3) as you could see in the monday update.
8 november - best condition, monday picture. That day, I had to do some LST just to give more space between branches. I didn't have any problem, just a broken leaf.
12 november - a very small sparkle of epsom/2L (6.8 PH, 0.7 EC, runoff 5.6, 1.6 EC)
13 november - today's picture

If it can be helpful, I have the smaller sister (13 days younger) which has been living in the same soil compost. It has been fertilized only once with minimum doses (0.5ml/1.5L Bio Magno on 1 november) but it is doing great. Just a couple of top leaves getting very red, maybe phenotype.

It is a cheap quantum board 120w, max dimmered, far 13' from the plant.

I really don't know what's going on. I'm sure humidity and temperature are perfect.
I'm not sure if it can be a lockout, that's the problem, as you can see it didn't get so much nutes. I didn't even get to the recommended dosate (1ml/1L).

No problem man. Give me a little to think on it. I'll get back to you later today.

Was the Epsom a foliar application, or roots?
Too much coincidence when you say the smaller one is better with less. Less is nearly always more.
Don't worry about chasing your runoff either. You'll be chasing your tail.

Keep an open mind about things. There are heaps great growers on here. With awesome advice.
Welcome any advice you get. We're all guessing here.

Pleased my advice has been a help to you mate. Appreciate the kind words.
Gimme a couple hours to think it over.

Edit: if you can, please show a pic of the smaller one's red leaves too, if you're able.. Might be really helpful. Cheers.

Aussieaceae · Nov 13, 2020

Laux said:
Plain water should be 7.9 PH and 0.4 EC (8.1 for the cheap chinese ph meter, I'm sure it is not perfectly calibrated).

Then it needs to be calibrated properly. That could be 90% of the problem right there.
Get some pH 4.0 solution, some pH 6.8 / 7.0 solution, some electrode cleaner and distilled water.

You're absolutely mad trusting those numbers. Let alone trusting them in the runoff too.

Properly calibrate your probe asap.

Laux said:
29 october - here is when the plant was very droopy, the worst day I can say, but it got better after a couple of waterings (where runoff EC was pretty high, 2.3) as you could see in the monday update.

8 november - best condition, monday picture.

I don't believe that to be just coincidence at all...Plain water might still be your best friend here.

Laux said:
I'm not sure if it can be a lockout, that's the problem, as you can see it didn't get so much nutes. I didn't even get to the recommended dosate (1ml/1L).

Of course it could be a lockout and quite frankly very likely is.
Doesn't matter if you're giving barely any nutrient.
If your soil's pH and water is outta whack, nutrients are unavailable, no matter how much you dump in.
And adding more nutrient in such a situation, only antagonizes the problem further.

Yellowing, drooping, claw, red leaves, wilt etc, etc.
All these things can be attributed to an acidic root zone.

If your waste is reading 5.6 pH and using an inaccurate water pH probe, how can you rightly say your soil's pH isn't 4.0?

Sorry to be blunt here, but stop measuring your waste and chasing your tail. Get some calibration solution and properly calibrate your meter.
Don't use any more acid, nutrient, or try fixing anything until you have. And if they want water, no acid either.
Fix your broken meter.

Good luck. Need help calibrating, or anything else just shout.

Aussieaceae · Nov 13, 2020

Laux said:
Thank you man again for your kindness, you are the only one who can help me.

I will write here all the schedule.
Plain water should be 7.9 PH and 0.4 EC (8.1 for the cheap chinese ph meter, I'm sure it is not perfectly calibrated). I correct it with 1ml of plagron lemon kick every time I water (7 PH with cheap pen, so I think it is 6.8 ).
I usually water, then 2 or 3 days no water, and the next day I water.
9 sectember - first seedling
14 october (36 days old) - 0,3ml/1L Bio magno fioritura OM
19 october - 1/2 tsp./ 1.5L Epsom salt (1 EC)
Here's when drooping problem came out.
28 october - 0,7ml/2L Bio magno fioritura OM (6.8 PH, 0.8 EC)
29 october - here is when the plant was very droopy, the worst day I can say, but it got better after a couple of waterings (where runoff EC was pretty high, 2.3) as you could see in the monday update.
8 november - best condition, monday picture. That day, I had to do some LST just to give more space between branches. I didn't have any problem, just a broken leaf.
12 november - a very small sparkle of epsom/2L (6.8 PH, 0.7 EC, runoff 5.6, 1.6 EC)
13 november - today's picture

If it can be helpful, I have the smaller sister (13 days younger) which has been living in the same soil compost. It has been fertilized only once with minimum doses (0.5ml/1.5L Bio Magno on 1 november) but it is doing great. Just a couple of top leaves getting very red, maybe phenotype.

It is a cheap quantum board 120w, max dimmered, far 13' from the plant.

I really don't know what's going on. I'm sure humidity and temperature are perfect.
I'm not sure if it can be a lockout, that's the problem, as you can see it didn't get so much nutes. I didn't even get to the recommended dosate (1ml/1L).

Also thanks a lot for this post, information and thoughtful response.

Don't take anything to heart. Not talking down to you and certainly never will. Just being as honest and truthful as can be.
Because it's straight to the point.
That's sometimes very difficult to express properly online.

Mistakes are about learning. Fixes and solutions is progress. And perfection is unlimited experience.

If you're not learning, you're not growing. Mistakes happen all the time. Myself included.

Laux · Nov 14, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
Edit: if you can, please show a pic of the smaller one's red leaves too, if you're able.. Might be really helpful. Cheers.

I will never end to say to thanks.
I'm really glad there is someone who is caring about my problem and helping me.

Here's a picture of one of the read leaves on the smaller plant. It receives the same water PH of the sister, but it looks fine.

I have the PH calibration solutions, but I need to buy distilled water and a electrode cleaner. I will buy them as soon as possible.

Until then, I will just give it plain water with no PH correction. If the PH is too low, I think it will help to raise it.

Aussieaceae · Nov 14, 2020

Laux said:
I have the PH calibration solutions, but I need to buy distilled water and a electrode cleaner. I will buy them as soon as possible.

Until then, I will just give it plain water with no PH correction. If the PH is too low, I think it will help to raise it.

Good thinking. Good luck.

Use the distilled water to rinse the probe between solutions / cleaner.

Thank you is not needed my friend. We've all been there. Glad to help.

I'll keep an eye out for an update.

Laux · Nov 15, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
I'll keep an eye out for an update.

Hi man, thank you to be here for me everytime.
I have noticed that the red leaves of the smaller plant are starting to die.
So I'm wondering if the soil ph would be imbalanced even in the second one (molybdenum is not absorbed under 6.5)

Aussieaceae · Nov 15, 2020

Hey man,

In my honest opinion it's probably phosphorus locking out from low pH.

Get your meter accurate. Then test your water etc again, to make sure your current data is at all accurate.
If it's accurate, then before doing anything else, or changing anything, test the pH of your soil. You can't do this accurately with your pen.

You can buy soil pH test kits that are tried and true. They're also cheap. I'll attach a picture of one.
Make sure you get one with the powder and follow the instructions.

If your soil sample's pH comes back low, then don't do anything rash, come back here and post the results.

Let me know any new data.
Also if you realize the pH has been reasonably accurate this whole time after testing. Then make sure you say. That's super important too.

Good luck.

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Corso312 · Nov 15, 2020

Laux said:
Thank you for the answer.
Everytime I water there's a very small runoff, the medium is a bio bizz light mix.
Every plant I have grown has purple stem, I think it can be caused by UV lights.

IMO bottom feeding works best, you just keep letting her wick it up until she's had enough.

Droopy leaves, what's going on?

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