Ebb and Flow Volumes for Res vs Medium.

Pie Man · Jan 2, 2023

Hi All

Thank you for any help.

I have a fair bit of experience growing outdoors in my younger years. I have never been comfortable with having an indoor grow, but I have relented because of the obvious advantages. I have decided to build myself an automated ebb and flow system using 74 litre nested storage bins but with a remote reservoir for the nutrient. I estimate the Medium area will be 60 litres filled with hydroton and I estimate the res will hold 55 litres full of nutrient. I have a 1m x 1m tent with a Vipar Spectra XS 3000. I want to grow a single plant SCROG.

I was hoping someone could tell me how these ratios will work together in terms of the reservoir size vs medium volume. Should I say start with 30L of nutes and do a one week change with a seedling and then fill the res completely when the plant is in flower? Will 60L of root space be enough for a long scrog grow? I am also going to use a 1400l litre per hour pump so I can fill the medium quickly, I am unsure as to the density of hydroton and how much water it will displace but the pump will fill the res completely in a little over 2 mins. I have a second timer so I should be able to get the switch off very close to just after overflow, is doing this every 1/2 hour too often?

Was hoping I could get some constructive criticisms on my plans,

thanks.

Boatguy · Jan 2, 2023

Your plans are pretty complicated for a single plant scrog... Even with a short veg time it is very easy to fill a 3x3.

Pie Man · Jan 2, 2023

Boatguy said:
Your plans are pretty complicated for a single plant scrog... Even with a short veg time it is very easy to fill a 3x3.

The 3x3 will become a veg tent eventually. I was hoping for information on how quick the medium fills and drains and how much nute solution to run in the res. I want to run this ebb and flow system on much bigger tents in the future.

coxnox · Jan 4, 2023

rez capacity depend on your table....if the table can hold 100L you need at least 200L rez.

Boatguy · Jan 4, 2023

Pie Man said:
The 3x3 will become a veg tent eventually. I was hoping for information on how quick the medium fills and drains and how much nute solution to run in the res. I want to run this ebb and flow system on much bigger tents in the future.

Didnt mean to come off as rude if i did..
I have my first attempt at a gh waterfarm going right now, and it has already overwhelmed my tent. It has a 2 gallon capacity and 2 weeks into flower is consuming 1 gallon a day.
Hopefully that helps you sort out a capacity that suits your plans for res maintenance.

Pie Man · Jan 4, 2023

coxnox said:
rez capacity depend on your table....if the table can hold 100L you need at least 200L rez.

Thank you coxnox that is the number I was looking for 2:1.

No problem boat guy I was talking about running a system that was too big for the 3x3 but I am hoping I can speed up my grow in the 3x3 by allowing more root space. ideally I want to use this ebb and flow system in a 5x5 for a large single plant scrog. I am going to daisy chain another 60l tote into the system when I expand. I will just change the nutrient more often for now when running 55l res.

I am interested in the effect of quickly filling the medium. I want to run an airstone in the res and also and airstone in the bottom of the media in the inch or so of water that will pool so that it is continuously aerated. Am I going to be better off only having the roots in water for 3 mins or so as the medium fills rather than 15 mins on a mechanical timer?

Redlig · Jan 5, 2023

Here's my ebb and flow set up...I run 14 with a 37gallon ish res and the tray holds a little under 10 gallons if that gives ya any ideas. I have done a single plan scrog with it. I just change the top cap to the top with only one pot. You dont need a ton of medium just a place for roots. Because it is sealed up from light the roots grow out of the bottom of the pot and just fill the tray/drink the remaining water after it drains. Also I flood mine slowly for 10 minutes every 4 hours. My drain airates the water as it drains and helps mix stuff up too

coxnox · Jan 6, 2023

Pie Man said:
Thank you coxnox that is the number I was looking for 2:1.

No problem boat guy I was talking about running a system that was too big for the 3x3 but I am hoping I can speed up my grow in the 3x3 by allowing more root space. ideally I want to use this ebb and flow system in a 5x5 for a large single plant scrog. I am going to daisy chain another 60l tote into the system when I expand. I will just change the nutrient more often for now when running 55l res.

I am interested in the effect of quickly filling the medium. I want to run an airstone in the res and also and airstone in the bottom of the media in the inch or so of water that will pool so that it is continuously aerated. Am I going to be better off only having the roots in water for 3 mins or so as the medium fills rather than 15 mins on a mechanical timer?

if yu dont put strange additives(enzym, roots, or any additives with organic stuff in.....)you don't have to change rez, just top with fresh solutions.
airstone is uneeded, just a pump to keep the rez circulating....when the flood come back to rez it make a lot of air in the rez.
i use rockwoool cubes, it hold solutions and have a lot of air in it.

gr865 · Jan 6, 2023

Currently run the 6 - 5 gallon pot Active Aqua Gro & Flo (ebb and flow) with 6 plants, auto watering, 30 gallon reservoir.
The auto watering setup. 55 gallon rez but only use 3 gallons.

The pump, manifold and filters. 3 gallon/min 12 volt RV transfer pump with 110V to 12 volt converter. In-line filter and filter on the 35 psi reducer.

Have changed the setup some. Instead of pumping into the control bucket and allow the grow buckets to fill from the control I am doing a waterfall effect using Rainbird full circle emitters.

This pic was taken during first setup.

This is after adjusting the volume of solution need in the pots.
This gives more dissolved O2 available to the plants along with the O2 from the air stone in the reservoir. The buckets fill from the top instead of from the bottom.
It takes about 18 gallons to fill the pots and the plants are drinking about 2 gallons per day. I add back to the reservoir every two to three days, adjust the nutrients (about 30 ml of Micro and Bloom) and adjust the pH as needed. The pH has been relatively stable since I began using the Torus pH unit.

It's been 4 weeks since they were put in the pots. The above picture was taken when the went into the pots. Here they are today.

Plan to give them another 3 to 4 weeks of veg time, continue LST and keep the same feed schedule and timing before I go into flower.
I hope this gives you something to think about and I am glad to answer any questions you have.

You can see my journal @ Winter 2022/23 Gro & Flo (Ebb and Flow) Run.

Winter 2022/23 Gro & Flo (Ebb and Flow) Run

Did a little tie down today. Nothing major and only broke one bud site. The Blueberry! This is the one that I broke a bud site. Tried taping it up but no luck. The rest are all LSD. Lets see how the respond after a few days.

www.rollitup.org

Treesomewanted77 · Jan 6, 2023

Pie Man said:
Hi All

Thank you for any help.

I have a fair bit of experience growing outdoors in my younger years. I have never been comfortable with having an indoor grow, but I have relented because of the obvious advantages. I have decided to build myself an automated ebb and flow system using 74 litre nested storage bins but with a remote reservoir for the nutrient. I estimate the Medium area will be 60 litres filled with hydroton and I estimate the res will hold 55 litres full of nutrient. I have a 1m x 1m tent with a Vipar Spectra XS 3000. I want to grow a single plant SCROG.

I was hoping someone could tell me how these ratios will work together in terms of the reservoir size vs medium volume. Should I say start with 30L of nutes and do a one week change with a seedling and then fill the res completely when the plant is in flower? Will 60L of root space be enough for a long scrog grow? I am also going to use a 1400l litre per hour pump so I can fill the medium quickly, I am unsure as to the density of hydroton and how much water it will displace but the pump will fill the res completely in a little over 2 mins. I have a second timer so I should be able to get the switch off very close to just after overflow, is doing this every 1/2 hour too often?

Was hoping I could get some constructive criticisms on my plans,

thanks.

Yes every 1/2 hour is too often to flood. If you’re filling your table with hydroton you can do 4 floods in the day period and none during lights out. But I had a friend just flood every 6 hours regardless of light or dark and it worked great.
Flood and drain is awesome way to grow. As stated you don’t need to perform res changes weekly like with DWC just top off with fresh nutrient solution and keep all organics away and you should do fine.

Redlig · Jan 6, 2023

gr865 said:
Currently run the 6 - 5 gallon pot Active Aqua Gro & Flo (ebb and flow) with 6 plants, auto watering, 30 gallon reservoir.
The auto watering setup. 55 gallon rez but only use 3 gallons.
View attachment 5245567
The pump, manifold and filters. 3 gallon/min 12 volt RV transfer pump with 110V to 12 volt converter. In-line filter and filter on the 35 psi reducer.
View attachment 5245566
Have changed the setup some. Instead of pumping into the control bucket and allow the grow buckets to fill from the control I am doing a waterfall effect using Rainbird full circle emitters.
View attachment 5245572 This pic was taken during first setup.
View attachment 5245573 This is after adjusting the volume of solution need in the pots.
This gives more dissolved O2 available to the plants along with the O2 from the air stone in the reservoir. The buckets fill from the top instead of from the bottom.
It takes about 18 gallons to fill the pots and the plants are drinking about 2 gallons per day. I add back to the reservoir every two to three days, adjust the nutrients (about 30 ml of Micro and Bloom) and adjust the pH as needed. The pH has been relatively stable since I began using the Torus pH unit.

It's been 4 weeks since they were put in the pots. The above picture was taken when the went into the pots. Here they are today.
View attachment 5245564 View attachment 5245565

Plan to give them another 3 to 4 weeks of veg time, continue LST and keep the same feed schedule and timing before I go into flower.
I hope this gives you something to think about and I am glad to answer any questions you have.

You can see my journal @ Winter 2022/23 Gro & Flo (Ebb and Flow) Run.

Winter 2022/23 Gro & Flo (Ebb and Flow) Run

Did a little tie down today. Nothing major and only broke one bud site. The Blueberry! This is the one that I broke a bud site. Tried taping it up but no luck. The rest are all LSD. Lets see how the respond after a few days.

www.rollitup.org

This is going to sound dumb but uh...can you explain where the water goes? Just curious, I grow with ebb and flow so I'm accustomed to seeing the tank under a table and I'm like uhhh how's the water get back

gr865 · Jan 6, 2023

Redlig said:
This is going to sound dumb but uh...can you explain where the water goes? Just curious, I grow with ebb and flow so I'm accustomed to seeing the tank under a table and I'm like uhhh how's the water get back

My system is a bucket system and works this way, the solution is pumped from the reservoir to the Rainbird full circle emitters in each pot, as they fill the grow buckets it fills the control bucket to a given depth and shuts off. The solution stays in the buckets for a given period of time and the pump in control bucket pumps the solution back to the reservoir. This repeats ever 3 hours.
Hope that explains it.

The six pots system, the blue bucket is my stool, lol. The 6 grow pot and the control bucket on the right middle of the system. Not tray.

LoveYouLongTime420 · Jan 26, 2023

gr865 said:
My system is a bucket system and works this way, the solution is pumped from the reservoir to the Rainbird full circle emitters in each pot, as they fill the grow buckets it fills the control bucket to a given depth and shuts off. The solution stays in the buckets for a given period of time and the pump in control bucket pumps the solution back to the reservoir. This repeats ever 3 hours.
Hope that explains it.
View attachment 5245661 The six pots system, the blue bucket is my stool, lol. The 6 grow pot and the control bucket on the right middle of the system. Not tray.

Does the brain bucket control the emitters? Or is there another timer and pump controlling the lines? I’m curious how you set this up.
Also why not just use the flood and drain as is intended? I ran rockwool and got good results. I was debating hydroton and saw this post.

gr865 · Jan 27, 2023

LoveYouLongTime420 said:
Does the brain bucket control the emitters? Or is there another timer and pump controlling the lines? I’m curious how you set this up.
Also why not just use the flood and drain as is intended? I ran rockwool and got good results. I was debating hydroton and saw this post.

No the control bucket is for setting the depth of solution in the grow buckets.
This is how the solution gets to the emitters. The pump is a 12V RV transfer pump, 3 gallons/minute @ 60 psi, you can see the white 35 psi reducer on the output line on the left side of the manifold.

The solution is pumped to an 8 port Orbit manifold

and from there it is directed to the emitters via 0.25 inch red tubing.

I am only using 6 of the 8 ports at this time.

Looking back at the pump and reservoir picture,

the original system had a pump in the reservoir that pumped solution to the control bucket for distribution to the grow buckets. That pump died and I hooked up this old pumping setup that I used on my drain to waste coco/perlite runs. Then Rocky told me about the waterfall effect and I really like the way this method drenches the root system as the buckets fill. This way the control bucket fills in reverse, the roots sit in the solution for about 30 minutes before it is pumped from the control bucket back to the reservoir and draws in oxygen to the roots as the solution is pumped back into the reservoir.
I hope this explains my setup and method. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel but I feel this works better than the traditional way.

LoveYouLongTime420 · Jan 27, 2023

gr865 said:
No the control bucket is for setting the depth of solution in the grow buckets.
This is how the solution gets to the emitters. The pump is a 12V RV transfer pump, 3 gallons/minute @ 60 psi, you can see the white 35 psi reducer on the output line on the left side of the manifold.
View attachment 5253234

The solution is pumped to an 8 port Orbit manifold View attachment 5253238 and from there it is directed to the emitters via 0.25 inch red tubing. View attachment 5253239 I am only using 6 of the 8 ports at this time.

Looking back at the pump and reservoir picture, View attachment 5253234 the original system had a pump in the reservoir that pumped solution to the control bucket for distribution to the grow buckets. That pump died and I hooked up this old pumping setup that I used on my drain to waste coco/perlite runs. Then Rocky told me about the waterfall effect and I really like the way this method drenches the root system as the buckets fill. This way the control bucket fills in reverse, the roots sit in the solution for about 30 minutes before it is pumped from the control bucket back to the reservoir and draws in oxygen to the roots as the solution is pumped back into the reservoir.
I hope this explains my setup and method. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel but I feel this works better than the traditional way.

Very interesting setup. Where do I look into making my setup into something similar?

I guess my only problem with this setup is it’s still recirculating, I’d probably do a drain to waste.

I have this same system although not changed. I think it works great. In my opinion I think the drip doesn’t do much because it’s still accumulating in the buckets until a certain height. It’s basically a flood and drain except with a top flood.

did you notice any differences between the runs? I always did one flood for 15 minutes and then that’s it. Took about 8 minutes for the buckets to fill so the plants didn’t sit long.

I’ll be watching this grow though. Maybe i am wrong. In either case I still think it’s pretty neat and something different from the usual setups.

HydroDawg421 · Jan 30, 2023

I use a modified dutch bucket system.

Essentially, Air pots sit in a flood/drain table that is top fed and the nutes gravity drains back to the reservoir. I used to flood but had too much salt build-up. The reservoir is only 10 gallons. It's E-A-S-Y to maintain and the 10-gal reservoir means nutes are cheaper too! Jack's 321 !!!

Treesomewanted77 · Jan 30, 2023

HydroDawg421 said:
I use a modified dutch bucket system.

Essentially, Air pots sit in a flood/drain table that is top fed and the nutes gravity drains back to the reservoir. I used to flood but had too much salt build-up. The reservoir is only 10 gallons. It's E-A-S-Y to maintain and the 10-gal reservoir means nutes are cheaper too! Jack's 321 !!!

View attachment 5254477

View attachment 5254471

What size pump are you using to make the flora flex bubbler work? I got some flora flex dripper stakes but it takes a big pump to get the correct PSI so I went back to my drip rings

gr865 · Jan 30, 2023

LoveYouLongTime420 said:
Very interesting setup. Where do I look into making my setup into something similar?

I guess my only problem with this setup is it’s still recirculating, I’d probably do a drain to waste.

I have this same system although not changed. I think it works great. In my opinion I think the drip doesn’t do much because it’s still accumulating in the buckets until a certain height. It’s basically a flood and drain except with a top flood.

did you notice any differences between the runs? I always did one flood for 15 minutes and then that’s it. Took about 8 minutes for the buckets to fill so the plants didn’t sit long.

I’ll be watching this grow though. Maybe i am wrong. In either case I still think it’s pretty neat and something different from the usual setups.

I used this same setup in my Coco/Perlite smart pot runs, except I only used a 27 gallon tote as my rez, compared to the 55 gallon drum I am using now. Of course I am only using 30 gallons in the drum now for my Ebb and Flow runs.

gr865 · Jan 30, 2023

LoveYouLongTime420 said:
Very interesting setup. Where do I look into making my setup into something similar?

I guess my only problem with this setup is it’s still recirculating, I’d probably do a drain to waste.

I have this same system although not changed. I think it works great. In my opinion I think the drip doesn’t do much because it’s still accumulating in the buckets until a certain height. It’s basically a flood and drain except with a top flood.

did you notice any differences between the runs? I always did one flood for 15 minutes and then that’s it. Took about 8 minutes for the buckets to fill so the plants didn’t sit long.

I’ll be watching this grow though. Maybe i am wrong. In either case I still think it’s pretty neat and something different from the usual setups.

If you want I can give you a breakdown on my system.

gr865 · Jan 30, 2023

HydroDawg421 said:
I use a modified dutch bucket system.

Essentially, Air pots sit in a flood/drain table that is top fed and the nutes gravity drains back to the reservoir. I used to flood but had too much salt build-up. The reservoir is only 10 gallons. It's E-A-S-Y to maintain and the 10-gal reservoir means nutes are cheaper too! Jack's 321 !!!

View attachment 5254477

View attachment 5254471

How do you think Jacks 321 will work in my ebb and flow setup?

Ebb and Flow Volumes for Res vs Medium.

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