grow more fertilizer ???

Getting ready to place an order in the next couple days, going to get everything in that inert grow. I have been searching around looking at dif nutes and their schedules and had a container of the sea grow 16-16-16 given to me. So in looking to switch from a full advanced line and not paying attention I ran out of nutes and didn't have any to use so I cracked open that sea grow and wow. Big jump on the three plants that got it, there were five ghost train haze plants side by side. The three that got it, a Tbs per gal to a 10 gal pot, had average of three inches extra growth over the other plants. Might have to play with doses a little, unless it's as strong as it claims, then again I might be used tho using advanced type stuff. Although I will be adding a couple other little boosters like silica etc...

Terk1974 said:

Might have to play with doses a little

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How much are you using? I find 1/2-3/4 tsp/gal does well. When I fed 1 tsp/gal, it worked well until salt buildup occurred in early flower. Doing 3/4 tsp/gal regularly might be good, but I would mix enough to get 20-30% runoff to reduce the risk of salt buildup. Even at 1/2 tsp, I try to get 10-20% runoff, and a 20-30% occasionally.

I've found my runoff ppm should be in the 1120-1220 range. This ppm (hanna, 500 scale) tracks runoff ph. At this range runoff ph will be 6.1-5.9. If it gets to 1250, I need more runoff. (Runoff ph will be around 5.6-5.8.). If it goes above 1250, I'm facing salt buildup and imminent problems. (Runoff ph will be 5.6 and dropping.).

I don't measure runoff ph anymore because ppm is a good proxy. I don't even measure runoff ppm each time either. I'll check it every other watering starting in late veg. Maybe every watering in early- to mid-flower. It's just an indicator if I need more runoff (modest flush). I don't know if my numbers would match your environment. I'd encourage you to measure runoff ph and ppm each time to see the trend. It's a lot of work, but after seeing the trend in 2-3 grows you'll see how the two relate to each other, where the "tipping" point is, how to balance strength versus volume (runoff).

The simpler solution would be to water for 20% runoff each time. But, if you want to understand it better, you could do the above.

I'm experimenting right now with no silica, no ph'ing the nutrients, no calmag (but I add enough tap water so my starting ppm is 180-220.). Too soon to tell. What I've noticed so far is that my nutrient ph is higher (and doesn't need ph-up). I think the calmag acidifies the mix.

You said you're going to order all the stuff. What is that? I think all you need is F&B and some Hawaiian Bloom. Maybe Jump Start (I'm using Liquid Karma. I'm going to try JS sometime.). There's other stuff, but @Hermitian doesn't recommend them.

Be careful not to switch to F&B. It's too high in PK. You'll want to scale into it, reducing your AP a little, adding a little F&B until you get to maybe 1 part AP and 1 parts FB in late flower. (Maybe a pinch of Hawaiian added to one feeding at the end of flower as a bloom booster.).

You can use the spreadsheet to monkey around with this. In veg I'm using 1.8g AP, 0.9g langbeinite, 5ml Liquid Karma for an NPK ratio of 1-1-1.74. If I used calmag (which has N), I'd change that a little to get the same NPK ratio. (If used silica, I'd reduce or eliminate langbeinite.). This ratio is something Hermitian thought would be good to try.

If by "silica" you mean potassium silicate, be careful. It is a source of potash and too much potash (from too many sources) will result in potassium toxicity. There is no cure.

The schedule I've posted is intended to be used without additives. If you intend to add potassium silicate, you'll need a different schedule.

The numbers seem so low, other growers I know using HB in flower are using a tablespoon per gal, along with some other boosters.

But I'm mostly looking into the Mendocinhoney, jumpstart, HB. Haven't focused too much on veg nutes yet started using the 16-16-16 by itself and honestly I don't think I need anything else, so far anyway. But I'm open to suggestions cause this is a many of firsts for me with this grow. Switched everything from media, nutes, genetics so it's been interesting.

Terk1974 said:

The numbers seem so low, other growers I know using HB in flower are using a tablespoon per gal, along with some other boosters.

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I know what you mean. I learned of Grow More at autoflower.net where there are quite a few people using it. The commonly-referred to schedule says to use 1tsp/gal AP in veg, and it switches to 1tsp Flower & Bloom + 1/4 tsp Hawaiian in flower. Not only did I get serious salt buildup (nute lockout) in early flower, but the flower recipe is something like NPK ratio 1-8-3. That seems extremely imbalanced.

I don't know how they don't have a problem. Maybe they water for a lot of runoff.

I agree with you that AP seems to be all you need in veg. I'm bumping the K up a little with langbeinite because boutique (AN, GH) schedules have a higher K. (I was using silica which has K, and I used GH ArmorSi which has more K than most other products. But, I'm experimenting with fewer supplements. Replacing calmag with tap water, ArmorSi with langbeinite. All I add is 5-6ml Liquid Karma. That's just because I already have it. I want to try Jump Start sometime.).

In flower, if you mix equal parts AP and F&B you'll get 1-2.2-2.2 which is probably good for late flower. If you mix it this way too soon you'll get N def. I do. (This is where the spreadsheet is handy to see how to scale up to 1:1 AP:F&B. Or, how what the NPK looks like if you add fish emulsion.).

I agree about the amounts being so small. It gets tedious in early flower where you might want to do 3/8 tsp AP, 1/8 F&B. To be precise, I weigh it. But, after I have it dialed in I would like to pre-mix it so I can just scoop out 1/2 tsp. (I do slightly more, like 5/8.).

I've only been growing for a few years now, learning each step of the way except for using advanced, they take all the learning out of it for you just follow directions and your growing. Maybe not the greatest or worst but you are growing, so that being said im not too savvy with levels yet and its not commonly addressed. Reading about all the levels is a good lesson in what it is I'm using, what it does, and why, I prefer it this way. I appreciate the help immensely, tho I am thinking of keeping the B-52 going so I'll have to account for that as well.

Does Grow More have a B1 thiamine supplement? I've been checking but haven't found anything yet. The reason I ask is I grow a lot of Haze strains and the B-52 does thicken stems up nicely. I've read reports B1 doesn't affect plant growth, but in a side by side Qrazy Train grow the stems on the B1 plants were thick enough it made super cropping a real pain.

Terk1974 said:

Does Grow More have a B1 thiamine supplement? I've been checking but haven't found anything yet. The reason I ask is I grow a lot of Haze strains and the B-52 does thicken stems up nicely. I've read reports B1 doesn't affect plant growth, but in a side by side Qrazy Train grow the stems on the B1 plants were thick enough it made super cropping a real pain.

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Ha, ha, you fell for an old trick. It is TRUE that B1 has no nutritional or hormonal value with plants. However, since some brands know that the myth is still out there, they put "contains B1" on the label and then put a hormone in the product that actually does something. Grow More is also guilty of this on the label of their "Grow Vite 16-4-2" product.

These are Grow More's main hormone products:
Rapid Root -- standard IBA 0.3% rooting hormone powder.
Seaweed Extract -- for "organically obsessed" growers.
Bio-Cozyme WSC -- "water soluble concentrate", a powder typically only sold in pallet quantities.
Bio-Cozyme (#2000, #2050) -- these are in 2.5 gal and 55 gal containers for farm use, the liquid is too thick for indoor irrigation.
Bio-Cozyme (#6044, #6045) -- these are in 1 qt and 1 gal containers and labeled for hydroponic use.
Jump Start -- this is the next-generation product after Bio-Cozyme, more balanced in terms of interacting hormones and very concentrated.

Terk1974 said:

Does Grow More have a B1 thiamine supplement?

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I suggest that you start without a lot of supplements. Sea Grow has some organic ingredients (sea weed, yucca extract, blood and bone meal). Jump start gives you hormones. If you use only this stuff you'd have a baseline which would help you know if supplementing adds anything beneficial.

It could be you don't need anything. Won't know without trying.

I don't use too many supplements, just trying to cover the the nutes I've been using with Advanced and swap it over to GM. I know I have to refigure amounts and of what, just trying to get it close to the original schedule and then make adjustments for the new nutrients. Of course learning a few new things, I used 4 bottles of advanced products at a time no more supplements than I absolutely had to, base plus two supplements big bud, and B-52. Most products you can cross reference and find similar alternatives just by merchandising, not so with GM so much it just makes the initial viewing more interesting cause you find out what's really in it and why.

Had to download open office to be able to open the product mixer but now that it's open and running it's very helpful.

az2000 said:

That results in an NPK ratio 1-1.42-1.34 and strength of 359ppm. (Assuming you don't use anything else containing nutrients, like calmag does).



If you add that to what you're doing above, that would be a relatively reasonable 1-3.4-1.6 (although the PPMs would be 890. Probably want to reduce HBB to 1/4 tsp and get a milder PK ratio of 1-2.4-1.3 and 655 ppms.

Previously I thought you were saying you wanted to replace your existing fertilizer with F&B (and maybe some HBB). That wouldn't be good.



If you want to stop using GH in flower, you could mix 1/4 tsp AP and 1/4 tsp F&B to get 1-2.2-2.2. Start higher with AP, less F&B. Mid flower have it 1/4 & 1/4. Toward the end, shift it higher F&B.

You're dealing with such small amounts that it's not a precise science unless you weigh it. It's more of a goal to keep in mind. You'll learn to read your plants and give more AP if you see N def.

You could add 1/4 tsp HBB in late flower as a "booster" to give you 1-4-2.5. You'd cut back AP and F&B so you'd only feed 1/8 tsp of each, and add 1/4 tsp HBB. Do that once, then resume your 1/2 tsp of combined AP and F&B for another week or two.

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Hi!

What would you recommend for veg? Would mixing still be better or would 1/2 tsp per gal ap with some calmag be fine? I think my plants arent as green or as big as they should be. Im feeling like gh 3 part did me better last grow though i have moved back to autos.

Freiya said:

What would you recommend for veg?

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1/2 tsp/gal All Purpose should work well. I've been doing 1.8g All Purpose and .9g Down-To-Earth Langbeinite (sul-po-mag) to increase K. 5ml Liquid Karma.

There's some variation in measuring volume like tsp depending on how you pack it down. I tamp it down a little. For me, 1/2 tsp of AP is 1.67g. F&B is 1.95g.

I haven't been using calmag recently. I'm using 25% tap water, 75% RO to get initial ppm of 150-200. I also add 1-1/2 to 2 tbsp dolomite to the soil, so that's a source of ca and mg too. Calmag wouldn't be bad, especially in veg because it adds N.

It doesn't need to be that precise. I fed 1tsp/gal and it worked ok until early flower when salt buildup was too much. If you feed with significant runoff you don't have to worry about it. I wouldn't do 1tsp/gal. But, 3/4 tsp with good runoff would be safe.

Freiya said:

Im feeling like gh 3 part did me better last grow though i have moved back to autos.

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I harvested these buds yesterday (3/5). This plant was grown with Grow More Sea Grow from seed to harvest:




That's a Caliber IV hygrometer (1.5x4") for size comparison.

Notes:

1. Harvested 8 weeks + 3 days after flipping 12/12. The trichs are mostly cloudy, but I would have let it ripen another week. Looks a little too green to me. But, I usually err on the side of waiting too long. I'm trying to force myself to harvest earlier to get broader experience.
2. It flowered under Cree LED PAR38 (18w actual) spotlights from Home Depot. It turned out to be larger than I expected, so it only got 18-22w per sq ft. I expected to do 30-32w. This was the first time flowering exclusively under consumer-grade Cree LED lightbulbs. Instead of adding light, I kept it fixed at 18-22w so I could see how these lights perform. (I've grown underpowered like this with other LEDs which I boosted to 31w/sq ft on a later grow. I can say these lights grew very well, and would have been excellent at 30-35w.).
3. I didn't follow a feeding schedule. I used the spreadsheet to get custom NPK ratios throughout the grow based upon what I was seeing with the plant. For example, I reduced N (increased PK) too much too soon (in early transition) and got yellowing. Or, it could have been from bleaching from the LED spotlights being too close as a result of the plant stretching (and me not noticing it). So, I supplemented with epsom salt for mg def and fish emulsion for N def, covering all the bases. I supplemented with fish emulsion a few times in flower. Went up to 1-3.1-2 NPK ratio as a bloom booster, but ran 1-2-2 a lot during late bloom. (But, dipped down to 1-1.5-1.5 3-4 times when I supplemented with AK fish emulsion, when it seemed to be yellowing too much too soon. But, when I harvested, I think it was too green based upon what I usually do. But, as I said above, I'm experimenting with earlier harvest, greener harvest, no flush before harvest, etc. Just trying to get broader experience. You don't know until you try things.).

This was the plant a week before harvest:


It's about 3x3. That's why the lighting came out to be underpowered. I was expecting 2x2. I intended to take a picture of the whole plant when I harvested, but started chopping off branches before I thought about it. All I could do was take pictures of a couple representative buds.

Thanks for taking the time to reply again! Your plant looks great. How much do you think it will yield? and how long did you veg it for? Maybe the fact I'm using coco has something to do with it too. ;(

Freiya said:

How much do you think it will yield? and how long did you veg it for? Maybe the fact I'm using coco has something to do with it too. ;(

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It vegged 9 weeks, 1 day. The plant before this was the same thing. I didn't weigh the yield, but it filled two half-gallon Ball mason jars (plus a quart jar). But, I flowered it under an Area51 RW-150 and some Cree lightbulbs & floods for sidelight. This plant got less light and won't be as much.

I don't know much about coco. It's just a medium to hold the roots, not meant to provide mineral and biologic interaction. GH 3-part is more for soilless. Sea Grow is more for soil. It doesn't have to be heavy soil. I use 50-60% Pro-Mix HP, 20-25% Kellogg Patio Plus outdoor potting mix, 20-25% perlite. That's very little soil.

I don't know what to say about your use of coco. Not sure whether you'd be better off with GH 3-part. I've seen threads about people doing organic nutrients, humics, myco, etc., in myco. They seem happy, but it seems like some soil/mineral interaction in the medium would help.

Maybe @Hermitian could advise you about the suitability of Sea Grow in coco, if there's anything you can do to enhance the medium for this grow.

For coco, you'll need a Cal-Mg supplement such as Maxi-Cal. Otherwise no issue as it is Urea Free.

Hermitian said:

For coco, you'll need a Cal-Mg supplement such as Maxi-Cal. Otherwise no issue as it is Urea Free.

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Urea is bad in coco?

Urea is a poor choice in any soil-less media because there are no soil microbes to break down the Urea for plant use. As such, the presence of Urea will chemically damage the plant roots and the symptoms will shown in plant foliage.

Just an update to the harvest post above: The buds have been holding 63-64% jarred. I weighed them and they came out to 196g. I posted photos of the dried buds in another thread, along with g/w and g/sq ft details.

have any1 used grow more mendocino line foilage pro n bloom pro?