Hydro/Soil Less vs. Organic

Overgrowtho

Well-Known Member
This might be a bit of a newb question, but here goes:

Are hydro and soil-less medium grows normally fed chemical nutes, while soil grows tend to be (but are not always) organic?

If so, why is this and what are exceptions to those?
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
This might be a bit of a newb question, but here goes:

Are hydro and soil-less medium grows normally fed chemical nutes, while soil grows tend to be (but are not always) organic?

If so, why is this and what are exceptions to those?
Yes....the reason why is complex. I’ll try to be brief lol...
Organic soil is made up of millions of different living things along with non living organic materials. It is alive; among many other things soil contains microbes that break down organic materials and fungi that attaches to the root systems of all plants. The level of microbial activity in the soil has a lot to do with how healthy it is, how long it can sustain plants, and is also related to ph and soil composition. The soil make up, microbes, and mycorrhizae fungi form a symbiotic relationship that benefits all; aka the soil food web. So that being said all a decent organic soil needs to function properly is water.
In a sterile hydroponic medium you must provide soluble nutrients that can be absorbed directly by root systems without assistance by fungal symbiosis. The medium is only there to hold roots in place; the nutrient solution is adjusted to the proper ph for absorption as there is nothing to buffer it externally.
Synthetic nutrients feed the plant everything all at once whether it is needed or not whereas in soil the plants take up only what they need as it is needed. This is why over feeding leads to burn and/or salt buildup. You can use synthetic nutrients in both soil and sterile mediums but many are not safe for living soil. There are soluble organic nutrients and fertilizers that are safe for living soil; look for the OMRI label.
Keep a few things in mind:
No matter what you feed the plants it will eventually be deposited into the flesh of the plant. This is why grapes from different regions have different characteristics when they are made into wine: it is the soil composition (minerals, activity, etc) that makes the difference. This is also why synthetic nutrients must be purged from the medium regularly to prevent buildup.
Nobody feeds the trees in a forest yet they grow tall and thrive for hundreds of years. Soil was once leaves, animal carcasses/feces, minerals, and many other organic materials that have been broken down by microbes and distributed by mycelium underneath the forest floor.
The plants don’t really care what you feed them as long as they get what they need whether through symbiosis or directly soluble means. Many growers have found a balance between nutrients and soil but some do not realize they are using their soil as a sterile medium and probably would be better off using something like coco. Some might think their soil is depleted when in fact it had simply become inactive. PH and microbial activity are also closely related.
Compost is the main source of microbial activity on Earth; the gullets of earthworms contain the soil microbes needed by plants to decompose organic materials. This is why compost, namely worm castings, are so important to soil grows. EWC also usually what is lacking when growers have problems in soil.
There’s more to it than this but hope that helps answer your question..,
 

Overgrowtho

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detailed explanation @Richard Drysift its very helpful and I can see you are knowledgeable and experienced with your eloquent description. Based on this I will keep the two separate and not try to combine.

I'm planning to continue my super soil grow and also play with another DWC and soilless project restively. For sterile medium I plan to use 50% peat 50% vermiculite (Dr. Bruce Bugbee method).

Until now I've just been in super soil and I found it very difficult due to having issues with nutrient lockout from high potency soil. If you know, would you care to explain more about this phenomenon, why it happens and perhaps how to mitigate it?
 

myke

Well-Known Member
If you have the space you could also do a coco/perlite 50/50 beside your peat/verm as a side by side.Feed them the same.
I also have various plants in different mediums,dwc ,coco, living soil.Its a hand full but Im enjoying the experience.
 

Overgrowtho

Well-Known Member
Handful indeed @myke but great experuince and learning. Which ones do you favor most or least?

What has been easiest or most difficult? Most rewarding? Very cool to try many things...
 

myke

Well-Known Member
The rdwc is the easiest,uses less water, not much for maintenance.Im just starting organic to compare flavor etc.I have some strains that I really like so trying them in organic.So far so good.Also trying different cloning methods as I dont do seeds or at least havent in a while.
Great bunch here in organic.Theyll steer ya straight.
 

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
People here favor a "living soil"/super soil approach to organics, but you can absolutely be successful using liquid "organic" nutes with a coco medium, you just need to provide the microbial life. Coco develops a microbiome the same way that soil does-remember too, most potting soil is 98% "forest products" and peat moss, not much different than coco. Here is a good decade long thread on organics, notice in his recipe that sphagnum moss and coco are interchangeable, makes for some fun reading: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792. Different roads to the same goal, there isn't one "best" way to do this thing.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I like supersoil because it is easy. Once built i can water and worry about everything else but not be concerned with feeding them constantly.

If i didnt want to build my own soil i could grow in soil or a soil mix and add nutrients.

If i didnt want to mess with soil or wanted faster veg growth i would go hydro. This requires easy access to water and drainage.
If built from a typical 1/3 1/3 1/3 mix, supersoil imo is easy to modify. After a run i know what seemed off -- often by asking for help - and amend those things into the soil. Next run is better. Repeat.

I dont favor supersoil over hydro because it is better. I favor it because it works well for what I want. I believe expertise at something is more valuable than general knowledge...so I stick with SS for a long time before i would consider a change.
 
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Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detailed explanation @Richard Drysift its very helpful and I can see you are knowledgeable and experienced with your eloquent description. Based on this I will keep the two separate and not try to combine.

I'm planning to continue my super soil grow and also play with another DWC and soilless project restively. For sterile medium I plan to use 50% peat 50% vermiculite (Dr. Bruce Bugbee method).

Until now I've just been in super soil and I found it very difficult due to having issues with nutrient lockout from high potency soil. If you know, would you care to explain more about this phenomenon, why it happens and perhaps how to mitigate it?
Absorption issues (ph lockout) are related to the microbial activity in your mix. You say you are growing in “super soil.” If you bought a bag of soil and dropped in a plant it’s only a matter of time before it becomes inactive. If you did not add compost to the soil at all or even an aact to maintain the microbial population that could be the source of your lockout issues. Giving a compost tea regularly can help with this.
High value npk nutrients can mess with the fungi and microlife which could throw off your grow for weeks. That’s the main reason why you cannot really do synth nutes with organic soil; values are too high for the myco to deal with...Water is the solution there. If that is not the case and the plant has been in the same pot for awhile simply pot up with fresh mix and add in some ewc. If that’s not possible add compost directly as a top dress, maybe along with some kelp and fish bone meal. Ph problems in soil are fixed slowly; it will take awhile to get them back to normal unlike a hydro grow where everything happens fast. It takes a few amend & recycles in my exp to get a soil mix to water only status. There are alternatives to dissolved salts that provide safe organic soluble low value npk like liquid fish; stay with those if they need a boost.
 

Overgrowtho

Well-Known Member
Hi @Richard Drysift thanks again for your knowledgeable reply and guidance. It leads me to a few questions, if you dont mind:

1. Why do refer to pH lockout? I understood that nutrient lockout in my case is more likely a result of too "hot" (not necessarily fermenting but) nutrient rich soil. Which is especially problematic for seedlings.

2. Super soil, at least in my case, is bought composed of various inoculated micorhyze, castings, compost etc. So how could it arrive or become inactivated, if it is literally made of that stuff? Doesnt it already have microbrial life and that doesnt leave if staying organic?
(I am not doubting you, just trying to understand scientifically -- I top dressed today with castings, liquid fish, and compost to see if this will help waking it up or "activating" to prevent the nutrient lockout -- and sprayed leaves with kelp).

3. Would you recommend to grow clover as a cover crop at the same time while growing the cannabis trees?
 
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Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Hi @Richard Drysift thanks again for your knowledgeable reply and guidance. It leads me to a few questions, if you dont mind:

1. Why do refer to pH lockout? I understood that nutrient lockout in my case is more likely a result of too "hot" (not necessarily fermenting but) nutrient rich soil. Which is especially problematic for seedlings.

2. Super soil, at least in my case, is bought composed of various inoculated micorhyze, castings, compost etc. So how could it arrive or become inactivated, if it is literally made of that stuff? Doesnt it already have microbrial life and that doesnt leave if staying organic?
(I am not doubting you, just trying to understand scientifically -- I top dressed today with castings, liquid fish, and compost to see if this will help waking it up or "activating" to prevent the nutrient lockout -- and sprayed leaves with kelp).

3. Would you recommend to grow clover as a cover crop at the same time while growing the cannabis trees?
1. Ph lockout or nutrient lockout are the same thing but I now realize that’s not your problem. You never explained you had seedlings getting burned in super soil... Just cut your mix down with some coco and/or perlite to lighten it up. Easy fix.
Hot soil has too much available nitrogen; that is not the same as an absorption problem. Ph lockout or an absorption problem happens when you are feeding plants yet they look deficient. Just add something inert to your soil; adding more organic material will not help. They need nothing from seed for the first three weeks; pop seeds or freshly rooted clones in a stark mix. I use spent soil mixed with a little ewc and extra perlite for starting seeds or clones.
2. It should be active straight from the bag but any soil in a container will lose activity over time. Yes you are right and I’m sure it’s fine as it is....You mentioned lockout issues but that’s not the case; you just have a hot super soil mix. That’s like having the opposite of lockout. Nothing “leaves“ but microbes can get washed down with runoff or overwatering and they do have a limited lifespan. Populations are replenished naturally but giving aacts and/or compost will ensure a high level of activity. At a certain point you won’t have to do anything but water them. Most of the time when a plant is getting pale or even just generally sad looking simply potting up to a larger container with fresh mix is the solution.
Myco fungi is pretty resilient and will stay active in the soil long after the microbes are gone. It’s just that myco does not like high value npk; use a slow release fertilizer and steer away from soluble nutrients that have values that exceed much higher than 5. Add back granular mycorrhizae at each transplant; sprinkle in the hole so it’s touching the root ball. This WILL prevent ph/lockout or whatever you want to call an absorption problem.
Feel free to doubt me and then independently verify what I am saying; don’t just take my word for it. I wouldn’t be bothering to help if I didn’t have a similar experience.

3. You can do a cover crop if you want to. I don’t but can see the benefit if you plan to do “no till.” An established root ball already has a well developed soil food web; why not take advantage of that if you plan to pop another plant in the same container anyway? I usually amend and recycle the mix in a tote bin but that’s more of a TLO-style than a no till method. The way I understand it you are supposed to grow the cover crop before you plant anything else so the clover or whatever it is can pull nutrients up to the surface of the soil. If you just want to get growing right away it’s certainly not a requirement.
 

Overgrowtho

Well-Known Member
I use spent soil mixed with a little ewc and extra perlite for starting seeds or clones.
Its a good idea for future starts.


Populations are replenished naturally but giving aacts and/or compost will ensure a high level of activity
At some point I think I really need to get into the AACT maybe very soon.... any recommended reading on that?

Add back granular mycorrhizae at each transplant; sprinkle in the hole so it’s touching the root ball. This WILL prevent ph/lockout or whatever you want to call an absorption problem.
Good to know. Usually I have been doing this when I remember.
 
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