i’ll not buy another led until..

lusidghost said:

The new Spectrum King Phoenix supposedly stays relatively cool at 680w.

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good to know do you use this light or where did you find this info? because just by looking at it. they use the same light heatsinks (more or less i think) on these lights without much thought put into thermal management again and here it says q90 62000hrs! now way with those heatsinks is what i’m thinking.

crimsonecho said:

yeah underdrive a fixture right i should buy a 460w fixture designed for a 4x4 and run it at lower wattages? for a 4x4. why doesnt the company make a fixture with higher diode count, bigger pcbs, bigger or better heatsinks and underdrives the diodes ( use a smaller driver) to produce more light per watt and extends the lifespan?

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for this "feature" i would pay extra, i dont say the usual fixtures out there are ideal in my view.

btw never said that higher diode count dont need increased real estate on the PCB, thats a given for me.
go as large as you can, but skip the weight for the heatsinks and drive it low instead.

crimsonecho said:

again i’m not disputing the fact that diy reigns supreme. but another drive behind production is consumer habits. if people can understand in 4 years their light will be at 80% or lower in most cases they may go for a better built unit which may force the low end manufacturers to produce not so low end products and even the mid level and higher end products to get better at thermal management.

if a heatsink is 50C what are the temps of the actual diodes on the boards. the on paper specs such as lm/w umol/j are very much the readings taken at 25C or something most of the time. so as a customer i want better products.

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That is like saying you want car manufacturers to produce gas cars that get 100mpg's.
Sure they could, but the price and performance would limit sales.. Just the ugly side of economics

cobshopgrow said:

for this "feature" i would pay extra, i dont say the usual fixtures out there are ideal in my view.

btw never said that higher diode count dont need increased real estate on the PCB, thats a given for me.
go as large as you can, but skip the weight for the heatsinks and drive it low instead.

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yeah thats a given for you but for example mars hydro has 2 series as you are aware i’m sure fc and fce. basically same design with one having almost twice as many diodes. same pcb dimensions same heatsinks etc etc.

i personally prefer an underdriven fixture too. with my diy i was using 18 cree 1830s and running them at half the max current and 25% less than the test current. so yes underdriving it is a viable option but not with more diodes crammed onto the same pcb.

these are just some easy upgrades any led manufacturer can do. even the low end manufacturers imo.

Boatguy said:

That is like saying you want car manufactures to produce gas cars that get 100mpg's.
Sure they could, but the price and performance would limit sales.. Just the ugly side of economics

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They already do. It's called the Chevrolet Volt, .

PadawanWarrior said:

They already make it. It's called the Chevrolet Volt, .

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Not a gasser, but It's a step in the right direction.
My dirty vw tdi gets kickass mileage, but diesel prices are killing me right now.

Boatguy said:

That is like saying you want car manufactures to produce gas cars that get 100mpg's.
Sure they could, but the price and performance would limit sales.. Just the ugly side of economics

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though the problem here is that when you buy a 100mpg car thats gonna save you a lot of money besides its gonna be much better for the environment etc. these better designed fixtures are gonna pay for themselves many times over and if people can demand a better product they’ll be able to buy it at reasonable prices.

just like hummers. they are shitty cars 100% so most doesnt drive them because its a well known fact, some idiots are gonna keep driving hummers and thats alright too, more people used to drive them right? just like blurples they’re gonna dissappear eventually.

instead of changing your light in 4 years you dont and pay 100-200 more initally and save 1000+ over eight years? thats economical.

Boatguy said:

Not a gasser, but It's a step in the right direction.
My dirty vw tdi gets kickass mileage, but diesel prices are killing me right now.

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It's uses gas too.

crimsonecho said:

instead of changing your light in 4 years you dont and pay 100-200 more initally and save 1000+ over eight years? thats economical.

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Until the more efficient light comes out and you replace your old inefficient primitive fixture.

crimsonecho said:

though the problem here is that when you buy a 100mpg car thats gonna save you a lot of money besides its gonna be much better for the environment etc. these better designed fixtures are gonna pay for themselves many times over and if people can demand a better product they’ll be able to buy it at reasonable prices.

just like hummers. they are shitty cars 100% so most doesnt drive them because its a well known fact, some idiots are gonna keep driving hummers and thats alright too, more people used to drive them right? just like blurples they’re gonna dissappear eventually.

instead of changing your light in 4 years you dont and pay 100-200 more initally and save 1000+ over eight years? thats economical.

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Our military uses Humvee's so they can't be that bad, lol.

Boatguy said:

Until the more efficient light comes out and you replace your old inefficient primitive fixture.

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yeah but thats heresay. we dont know whats gonna happen and a projection about future shouldnt justify shitty designs today. plus that would be my choice not a necessity as in this case.

All my bar lights work fine, mars fce 4800, 3Dakason 1500(120w) Samphon 480w(super cheap $250 on Amazon rn) perform not quite to the ridiculous 3g/w claims but the 480s adequately flower 4x4 areas and the 3 120s smash in my 2x4. They all get warm, that’s why adequate ventilation, airflow and climate control are so important.

putting a fan on the light is stupid though, you just need your grow area adequately vented and cooled.

If it fit my budget I’d pay more for a higher diode/w count but they make those already and they don’t

yes, many strange designs out there.
some are simply like that cause the prototype pcb oven wasnt any bigger or else.

one thing is what sells and one is what makes sense technically.
this not always goes hand in hand.

lets take a analogy to pc overclocking.
you can gain a 10 to 20% more speed by using lets ay 25 to 50% more power by rasing the core voltage.
does it make sense in real life? no for 99% it dont, they would be better of with a undervolted cpu running stock speed or slightly lower and using 25 to 50% less power then usual for almost the same performance.
for the first scenario you need lots efforts in your cooling system, may even water cooling or fancier.
for second, you are fine with the stock cooler which would run barely audible with a undervolted cpu.
so, no i wont spend money on the fancy cooling solution.

were speaking of mid power diodes here.
not COBs anymore.
theyre not really have much heat to transfer per given square mm compared to COBs or fast CPUs cores, thats a whole other league and really demands highly conductuve material in later cases.
mid power leds are... harmless especially when driven under specs, there isnt simply much to transfer.
its not really a lot watts per mm2 it is in real to coduct.
its in fact so low that a lot materials are good enough for this job.

crimsonecho said:

yeah but thats heresay. we dont know whats gonna happen and a projection about future shouldnt justify shitty designs today. plus that would be my choice not a necessity as in this case.

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If you want good off the shelf lighting that can be run cool in a 4x4, you are looking at buying 4 fixtures designed to be maxed in a 3x3.
It is a pretty expensive proposition if not diy'd

easy fix buy quality products built and designed by growers that grow and understand the tech they use and sell ---- @Grow Lights Australia , standalone meanwell drivers , chunky heat sinks ,and of cause the best diodes in the market with the best spectrum.

Jjgrow420 said:

You dont understand business do you. That would cost way more money and the market is way to competitive to come out with expensive ass lights that no one will buy. Business is about making money. They tell you what you want not the other way around. If you're so horny then build your own board ..? Problem solved

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yeah and they actually like it when products don't last forever

though there's high quality lights that cost double and these also sell
but Mars/SF are really pushing via forums their semi-quality stuff esp. upon newbie growers

Lenin1917 said:

All my bar lights work fine, mars fce 4800, 3Dakason 1500(120w) Samphon 480w(super cheap $250 on Amazon rn) perform not quite to the ridiculous 3g/w claims but the 480s adequately flower 4x4 areas and the 3 120s smash in my 2x4. They all get warm, that’s why adequate ventilation, airflow and climate control are so important.

putting a fan on the light is stupid though, you just need your grow area adequately vented and cooled.

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yeah for example what is fine? i know they work fine. again the output of these light will diminish to about 80% after 4 years. even then they would work fine but why not design better units to begin with.

spread out the diodes sure, drive them softer yes, some doesnt agree fine but bigger heatsinks or atleast better heatsinks with more fins maybe fins extending from the sides as well between the bars etc etc. if you have to hang fans to blow on your fixtures to keep it cool how is that different than using pc fans?

what i’m asking is why cant i run them at 100% in a tent with just my exhaust fan running. isnt anyone else bothered by this?

cobshopgrow said:

yes, many strange designs out there.
some are simply like that cause the prototype pcb oven wasnt any bigger or else.

one thing is what sells and one is what makes sense technically.
this not always goes hand in hand.

lets take a analogy to pc overclocking.
you can gain a 10 to 20% more speed by using lets ay 25 to 50% more power by rasing the core voltage.
does it make sense in real life? no for 99% it dont, they would be better of with a undervolted cpu running stock speed or slightly lower and using 25 to 50% less power then usual for almost the same performance.
for the first scenario you need lots efforts in your cooling system, may even water cooling or fancier.
for second, you are fine with the stock cooler which would run barely audible with a undervolted cpu.
so, no i wont spend money on the fancy cooling solution.

were speaking of mid power diodes here.
not COBs anymore.
theyre not really have much heat to transfer per given square mm compared to COBs or fast CPUs cores, thats a whole other league and really demands highly conductuve material in later cases.
mid power leds are... harmless especially when driven under specs, there isnt simply much to transfer.
its not really a lot watts per mm2 it is in real to coduct.
its in fact so low that a lot materials are good enough for this job.

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i dont think pc overclocking applies 100% to this situation because a typical pc user as you suggested will not notice the difference but they would notice 4 years. mars says for example lifespan of 50000hrs lets say thats q80. thats still about 6 years at 24hrs on. so saves you 2 years at 24hrs on. this is noticable. this is 50% lifespan increase. if you densely pack these diodes i dont think you’ll see drastic differences between mid wattage cobs as 1830s i’ve been using and those were getting seriously hot without pc fans.

Lenin1917 said:

If it fit my budget I’d pay more for a higher diode/w count but they make those already and they don’t

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thats the deal, since the low end manufacturers dont produce this shit you’re at the mercy of the high end tier and those lights are more expensive because people say shit like mars hydro fc 6500 runs cool to the touch and works well instead of saying it runs hot as a mf and i’d steer away from anything that runs this hot because the typical lifespan quoted for diodes will not apply to these fixtures etc etc.

Boatguy said:

If you want good off the shelf lighting that can be run cool in a 4x4, you are looking at buying 4 fixtures designed to be maxed in a 3x3.
It is a pretty expensive proposition if not diy'd

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thats what i ended up doing but then i have a problem with the false info out there as i stated in my previous post up here ^

Scuzzman said:

easy fix buy quality products built and designed by growers that grow and understand the tech they use and sell ---- @Grow Lights Australia , standalone meanwell drivers , chunky heat sinks ,and of cause the best diodes in the market with the best spectrum.

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sure why not i’m not saying there arent any good lights out there but the general consensus on being fine with overdriven and extremely hot running fixtures is what i have a problem with.

Kassiopeija said:

yeah and they actually like it when products don't last forever

though there's high quality lights that cost double and these also sell
but Mars/SF are really pushing via forums their semi-quality stuff esp. upon newbie growers

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they quote 50000hrs lifespan which is downright a lie and when people say it runs cool to touch is just funny because when you ask about it you find out they point a fan at it lol yeah thats totally the point here.