Leaves praying too much, folding together before night cycle.

Anyone know whats causing this? Haven't had this before and the only difference between these and past grows is me adding pool shock to the system.

Light was set at 18/6 at 200 PPFD but I just lowered it to 160 PPFD to see if it maybe because too much light.

0.3 EC
RH 47-55%
74F air temps
66F water temps
pool shock 1g per 1gal (concentrate) and then 3ml/gal of that

The picture you see here was from right when the lights kicked on this morning (Day 9). I can upload another picture in the evening that will show the 2 leaves basically pinched shut after about 12 hours. I'd normally have roots out the pot by now but nothing. It's like the roots want nothing to do with the bleach.

when you say pinched shut, like they kinda fold up like a canoe? sounds like a DLI issue

do a res change w/o the shock and see if they behave the same

200ppfd is nothing to worry about. I start all my seeds under 600-800umol depending on whether it's 18 or 12 hours with no issue. I don't think I've ever gave a plant that little light. There are at day 11 and have been under roughly 800umol/s since birth.

VincenzioVonHook said:

200ppfd is nothing to worry about. I start all my seeds under 600-800umol depending on whether it's 18 or 12 hours with no issue. I don't think I've ever gave a plant that little light. There are at day 13 and have been under roughly 800umol/s since birth.
View attachment 5237756

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You use a meter to get your numbers?

farmingfisherman said:

You use a meter to get your numbers?

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Yep. I use a few lux meters and borrow a mates par Meter for calibration.

Lux multiplied by 0.016 gets me within 3-5% of a par Meter. Those above are under a 150w board at 80%/14" in a 2x2 for reference.

VincenzioVonHook said:

Lux multiplied by 0.016 gets me within 3-5% of a par Meter

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what K board are you running? i'm too cheap to buy a par meter but i have a lux meter from ebay for like 12 bucks.

and what happens if you have a multi K board or rail? like 3k, 5k and deep red? do you think that conversion is still kinda accurate?

rkymtnman said:

what K board are you running? i'm too cheap to buy a par meter but i have a lux meter from ebay for like 12 bucks.

and what happens if you have a multi K board or rail? like 3k, 5k and deep red? do you think that conversion is still kinda accurate?

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Board is a mix of lm301b 4000k/660nm. The 281b boards with 3000k/5000k and 660nm diodes needs a rate of 0.0145 to be accurate.

Most general white boards run around 0.015-0.017 when it comes to accuracy.

VincenzioVonHook said:

The 281b boards with 3000k/5000k and 660nm diodes needs a rate of 0.0145 to be accurate

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that sounds like mine. thanks. i'll use that factor and see what i come up with

rkymtnman said:

when you say pinched shut, like they kinda fold up like a canoe? sounds like a DLI issue

do a res change w/o the shock and see if they behave the same

Click to expand...

The leaves don't canoe, think about the two leaves "clap" together like hands. Since I turned down the light they backed down, but I just check and they're starting to close together again. Will post a picture later. I actually time lapsed it from yesterday, but i dont know if im able to post those here.

VincenzioVonHook said:

Yep. I use a few lux meters and borrow a mates par Meter for calibration.

Lux multiplied by 0.016 gets me within 3-5% of a par Meter. Those above are under a 150w board at 80%/14" in a 2x2 for reference.

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I have an Apogee ePAR and I can can confirm the if you use a Dr. Meter Lux meter (non LED one) you can take your lux and multiply by 0.016 to get your PPFD. But I noticed that once the battery starts going low on those lux meters, the readings become wildly inaccurate.

VincenzioVonHook said:

I start all my seeds under 600-800umol depending on whether it's 18 or 12 hours with no issue.

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I will seriously turn it up to 800umols right now if you promise to buy me a pack of seeds after it fries.

Jkooper said:

I will seriously turn it up to 800umols right now if you promise to buy me a pack of seeds after it fries.

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Yep, that's what happens when you start them too low. You up the light and they object. Start them at a decent intensity and you never have to acclimatise them to more light to begin with.

I had the same issues when I started a few years ago and fell for all these bogus "seedling stage" recommendations. I even did a side by side a few times with the recommended lighting for seedlings and my Intensity, and the ones popped under 150-250umol/s were gross, spindly messes with no side growth. All the seeds that went straight under 600-800umols ended up with far more node development and branching in general.

A good way to put it, the environment the seedlings is birthed into creates a stasis point. If you start it in weak light and cool temps, it's going to struggle when the light is tripled and the temps increase.

Just like.out metabolism adapts to our diet and exercise levels.

VincenzioVonHook said:

A good way to put it, the environment the seedlings is birthed into creates a stasis point. If you start it in weak light and cool temps, it's going to struggle when the light is tripled and the temps increase.

Just like.out metabolism adapts to our diet and exercise levels.

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I've been successful up until the bleach. I've started older grows with a mars hydro ts600 at like 12" above the seedling and was perfectly fine. Was probably getting 500umol or something. I put bleach in the water, issues. Only reason I added it was because my old grows was in ~55F water temps and is now in 66F. I'm just confused and this folding issue. The inner center of the plant is yellow because it folds up and doesn't get light. I have to wait for todays time lapse to finish before posting anymore photos. Killed 5 plants in 2 months....

Tbh it looks fine. I wouldn't stress. All of my seedlings have a pronounced circadian rhythm. All start to stand up an hour or two before lights off. It's cool to watch..

I'm pretty sure the newest growth on mine ends up vertical before lights off.

rkymtnman said:

what K board are you running? i'm too cheap to buy a par meter but i have a lux meter from ebay for like 12 bucks.

and what happens if you have a multi K board or rail? like 3k, 5k and deep red? do you think that conversion is still kinda accurate?

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Yes, it will be pretty close but you might be able to get closer if you can match your light to one of the lights in the chart below.

The images below are copy and paste from an Excel document I created (I don't know of a way to attach the file…)




and

What praying now is a bad thing ? Be lucky , she / he is happy .

rkymtnman said:

what K board are you running? i'm too cheap to buy a par meter but i have a lux meter from ebay for like 12 bucks.

and what happens if you have a multi K board or rail? like 3k, 5k and deep red? do you think that conversion is still kinda accurate?

Click to expand...

Theres a new meter out (forgot the brand name)that takes into account U.V. and I.R. ..
Ill see if i can remember and find it..

Apogee par meter mq610.. with new eSensor wand