Lets talk about male plants.

I thought I would start a thread to talk about breeding males. How to select appropriate ones to cross. How to see what they bring to the mix. Things of that nature. If you can't tell males from females this is not the forum for you. There is plenty of help in the new growers section. Thank you.

Most breeders just use the good ol' "stem rub and chuck" method.

They've had to ability to lab test males for quite some time now.

That's fine if you can afford to pay for it. People have been breeding through observation for a long time. That is the kind of discussion I am trying to spark.

I just use the most robust male.

Tangerine_ said:

They've had to ability to lab test males for quite some time now.

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Which services are you thinking of? I'd love to see one of their phenotype reports.

gthaenigma said:

That's fine if you can afford to pay for it. People have been breeding through observation for a long time. That is the kind of discussion I am trying to spark.

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You hit the same female genotype with multiple males, grow out as many seeds of each as you can, and whichever one produces the best females is your winner.

That's too much work for virtually everyone though so they pick the healthiest looking one with the best stem rub and maybe frost on the balls then chuck it at a room full of cuts. Bonus points if some of those cuts are your own crosses. Then they grow out some seeds and if they don't show serious intersex or mutant issues they bag 'em and ship 'em.

...or you could ignore the broscience myths, make some STS and cross your best females. Selection is much more powerful that way and all your seeds are female!

You can also revrese males with ethephon, that will give you clues to what smell and taste traits they are carrying but not necessarily bud structure, bag appeal, yield, high... a few reg breeders do that. By the time you do that though you could have made seeds from those males and begin growing out the progeny, or already made your fem seeds.

And I am among those don't find it to be too much work, and am trying to find others of my ilk. Chuck and pray is just luck. I have goals when I do a cross. Some issue with the original that I want to shore up. Some nuance i want to explore or a layer of flavor i want paint with.

gthaenigma said:

And I am among those don't find it to be too much work, and am trying to find others of my ilk. Chuck and pray is just luck. I have goals when I do a cross. Some issue with the original that I want to shore up. Some nuance i want to explore or a layer of flavor i want paint with.

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You're not going to find others of your ilk, virtually everyone is chucking. That's I suggest you forget about males and just breed with females. It's better in every way unless your goal is to sell seeds to people who have irrational fears of fems.

Virtually us not everybody. There are some people interested in preservation. There is a lot of strains disappearing. Diverse strong cleanlines are important, the male half of the genome is vital to a healthy future for this plant. Knowing how others are working, what they are observing in male lines is important so othrs can learn.

Observe & Report said:

You can also revrese males with ethephon, that will give you clues to what smell and taste traits they are carrying but not necessarily bud structure, bag appeal, yield, high... a few reg breeders do that. By the time you do that though you could have made seeds from those males and begin growing out the progeny, or already made your fem seeds.

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THAT is what I've been looking to read. I knew there was a way, but nobody went into detail about how to reverse a male. I'll look more into it now.

OP; as someone said, the only real way to test a male is to test its progeny. Takes a lot of time, but maybe worth it, depending on your goals

gthaenigma said:

Virtually us not everybody. There are some people interested in preservation. There is a lot of strains disappearing. Diverse strong cleanlines are important, the male half of the genome is vital to a healthy future for this plant. Knowing how others are working, what they are observing in male lines is important so othrs can learn.

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What's the difference between a grain of pollen with an X chromosome from a male plant and a grain of pollen with an X chromosome from a female plant? I think you've heard a lot of myths about fem seeds.

Nope grown alot of shitty unstable bullshit fem seed.

gthaenigma said:

Nope grown alot of shitty unstable bullshit fem seed.

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Did you read this above?

"That's too much work for virtually everyone though so they pick the healthiest looking one with the best stem rub and maybe frost on the balls then chuck it at a room full of cuts. Bonus points if some of those cuts are your own crosses. Then they grow out some seeds and if they don't show serious intersex or mutant issues they bag 'em and ship 'em "

Hermies and mutants are the fault of shitty breeders selling untested crosses, not the feminization process.

Pick at random. Doubt anyone has any more info than what's been posted. "Breeders" are just seed makers like the rest of us. They didn't breed anything, when a 10 pack yields 10 different plants.

LinguaPeel said:

Pick at random. Doubt anyone has any more info than what's been posted. "Breeders" are just seed makers like the rest of us.

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Exactly. Much respect to Subcool (RIP) who used to say on Weed Nerd that he wasn't a breeder, just a seed maker.

Also in support of other posts above, Cannabis just has intersex traits, it has nothing to do with fem or reg seeds. I'm about to chop a girl grown from regs that has no fems in its history: Coastal High Biscus, Purple Corinto x Puna Budder. Heirloom sativa and covered in anthers. They all have the capability, the expressed flowers are a matter of how much ethylene and ga3 the plant is producing, which can be affected by environmental conditions as well genetics. But feminized seeds don't change the environment or genetics.

If the OP really does want to compare the progeny of multiple males to find the right one to make a specific cross then they should go for it. However, I suspect that at the numbers people are realistically able to run that one might have better luck finding more keepers and sooner by just chucking your whole collection of females at once with your best stem rubber and going through the results.

LinguaPeel said:

Pick at random. Doubt anyone has any more info than what's been posted. "Breeders" are just seed makers like the rest of us. They didn't breed anything, when a 10 pack yields 10 different plants.

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I just shake my head when someone goes on about how great this or that breeder is and then starts describing how every plant from the same pack of seeds is a different pheno. But that's what you get from pollen chucking. Some think that all these people making seeds are selecting from hundreds of different males and females. I bet some of the newer seed makers just bought a few ten packs of different seeds, chucked some pollen, made seeds, and slapped a name on them. Then a quick wordpress website and they're a breeder selling seeds.

xtsho said:

Some think that all these people making seeds are selecting from hundreds of different males and females. I bet some of the newer seed makers just bought a few ten packs of different seeds, chucked some pollen, made seeds, and slapped a name on them. Then a quick wordpress website and they're a breeder selling seeds.

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The deal is that fem breeders are making seeds with plants selected from hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of plants. Selections are made every time someone in the community grows something out and keeps it and passes it on or not, or receives it from someone else and keeps it and passes it on or not. The elites that fem breeders are using are selected that way. Compare to males where there is zero community selection and you're back to stem rubbing whatever the breeder can grow right away without taking too much space away from the flower/oil/seed operation.

A very few do large selections themselves. CSI:Humboldt is doing selections from hundreds of plants, females though. Check on IG. He's done big runs of TK S1s, Urkle S1s, and Mendo Purps S1s to select a geno for making S2s. Not sure if he is going to release stablized seeds of those or they are just for making his own hybrids. His partner did an Old Familiy Purple run of almost 1000 females and he used that selection to make a bunch of crosses that are available now, including S1s.

I understand your point about the community aspect. And while some do run large amounts of plants to select for breeding many are just chucking pollen like myself and many others on this site. But even with the limited amount of plants I choose from I've still managed to make some really good stuff. Just as good as anything from a large portion of the so called breeders out there. Many of the outfits are just about making as much as fast as they can. Some probably take one male and open pollinate a bunch of different females of different strains. Then package those F1 seeds, sell them, and do it again.

I guess I'm skeptical about how much actual breeding is being done these days. With the seed market being such a cash cow I just think many are just chucking and selling. There is absolutely no regulation or oversite with cannabis seeds. And there are examples of fly by night seed shops selling hemp seeds and laughing all the way to the bank. You can be sold anything and have no recourse at all if you were mislead or purchased something that wasn't what it was claimed to be. Then there are dozens of different brands of the same named strain each a recreation based the original genetics but may not be anything resembling the original. It's pretty much a crapshoot these days buying seeds. However I do like ACE as they are definitely breeders. Maybe more preservationists but you get what they say you're getting.