Pandemic 2020

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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
“spreading democracy”


“We’re the good guys”

“The Russian president, [...] told CBS news yesterday [in 2005] that, unlike the US, Russia would not "poke its nose" into America's democratic system.”

That was a warning the US ignored. Hillary continued to piss off Putin big time by meddling in their elections (Bush jr. already started that in 2005). Putin had his revenge. Moral of the story, don’t fuck with Putin. To us Europeans, Americans and Russians are far more alike than either would want to admit. A major difference is Russia’s effort are ultimately directed inward, pretending to be a super power and player on the world stage to fool its own population.
I was thinking more not allowing genocide of people in a area kind of stuff with America involvement in some of these foreign nations, but I understand that I don't really know a lot about post European/Russian occupated nations after (shit or pre) WW2. So I am not going to pretend like we haven't overstepped. But I doubt everything is as clean cut as America bad everywhere we stepped into it.

Putin is attacking neighbors if I am not mistaken. Actual war with other nations that caused American officials to call Putin out. To pretend like that is the same as the Russian military actively trolling over 120 million Americans to brainwash them to the point that they were able to squeak Trump into the White House, a act that has directly led to the shit federal response that has allowed the deaths of about half a million people, is I'm pretty sure the definition of gas lighting (not saying you are).
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
But I doubt everything is as clean cut as America bad everywhere we stepped into it.
It’s not, and I don’t think anyone implied it is. It was just funny you pretty much gave the classic American “but we‘re the good guys” response. This is how the world thinks about who the greatest threat is to world peace. Hopefully this will improve with Biden, but I don’t expect Russia to replace the US on this map anytime soon or later.
9D5EB568-E3C9-4DDA-A0FA-44D5AB722F23.jpeg

Putin is attacking neighbors if I am not mistaken
You mean Ukraine 6 years ago? Where most people speak Russian, share their religion, culture, media, and are as fanatic in online attacks as the mother country. That really is hardly “another nation”. Also notice who that nation thinks is the biggest threat to world peace.

By our panics and hyperbole, not only are we in effect encouraging [Putin] to consider more adventures, we are giving him greater global clout than the leader of a declining, impoverished, underpopulated country stuck between a prosperous Europe and a rising China deserves. At present, the West is Putin’s PR team.

I’d say at the present, 4 years later, it’s mainly the US who’s Putin‘s PR team (pr directed towards his own people). Americans are generally the worst source of info when it comes to Russia. Both your governments have been fanatic in spreading propganda about each other‘s country. For decades, and still. The Russianz are not coming. It’s not Russia that has the ambition to be the unelected “leader of the world”. The US being their enabler, giving more power to Russia than they actually have, only strengthens the perceived power of Putin in Russia, making it harder for its population to free themselves from their Trump (Putin). Kim Yong-Un is immitating Russia for the same purpose. Iran too. Our leader must be strong if our greatest enemy is the most powerful country in the world.

Anyway, not sure how I led you to think I’m saying calling out Russia is the same as Russia’s propaganda efforts, but I’m not. I’m saying the US has been meddling in Russian elections before Putin decided it’s payback time. Putin‘s main priority wasn’t getting Trump elected, it was making sure Hillary wasn”t, it was about preventing him from be ousted by the US. It’s why Putin supports other authoritarians, cause he knows he could be next. It’s why he damaged the credibility of the US when it comes to judging fair elections, twice. So yeah, in regards to pushing democracy on Russia, the US overstepped... or maybe understepped.


Even without Russia, Trump and his magats were inevitable. American exceptionalism is Ubermensch. The display of American patriotism is what we call flag-horny nationalism. We’ve seen what that leads to and thus Trump is no surprise. Putin exploited a weakness that was already there. Giving Putin all the power of having determined your elections automatically implies the solution would be in more fighting with Russia with more drama as a result. Sure you got all the right to be mad at Putin, but the US should put her hand in her own bosom as well.

a act that has directly led to the shit federal response that has allowed the deaths of about half a million people,
Trump had a terrible influence but is not responsible for half a million deaths, nor by extension is Russia. It’s not like without Trump you would have been like New Zealand. In many countries where you’d expect a proper response to covid and have leaders with the best intentions and qualified experts, they still foolishly underestimated the problem and failed. North west Europe was still partying in the streets when Italy’s hospitals filled up and raised the alarm all day.

If this turns into a war because Putin gets mad that the democracies of the world that haven't been taken over by right wing trolls sanction the shit out of Russia and starts one, that is on him alone.
Starting an actual war because he gets mad, a war he can’t win, a war he can’t afford in more ways than economically, is not like Putin at all. It would expose how weak they truly are, the very opposite of what he wants.
 

H G Griffin

Well-Known Member
"But I doubt everything is as clean cut as America bad everywhere we stepped into it."

Why does it have to be clean cut? Are you saying that if they aren't all bad then none of them are bad?

What percentage of foreign operations are allowed to be manipulative and abusive before it concerns you?


Putin is attacking neighbors if I am not mistaken. Actual war with other nations that caused American officials to call Putin out. To pretend like that is the same as the Russian military actively trolling over 120 million Americans to brainwash them to the point that they were able to squeak Trump into the White House, a act that has directly led to the shit federal response that has allowed the deaths of about half a million people, is I'm pretty sure the definition of gas lighting (not saying you are).
Excusing your misdeeds by saying that others do worse is known as the Tu Quoque Logical Fallacy.

Example I

"It is clear that a tu quoque response to an accusation can never refute the accusation. Consider the following:

  • Wilma: You cheated on your income tax. Don't you realize that's wrong
  • Walter: Hey, wait a minute. You cheated on your income tax last year. Or have you forgotten about that?
Walter may be correct in his counter-accusation, but that does not show that Wilma's accusation is false."
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Thank you for a thoughtful response. It was appreciated. It is nice to be able to exchange thoughts and ideas without instant hostility.
----------------
I guess it comes down to the perception of who the good guys are.

The USA has always portrayed itself as a movie cowboy in a white hat, riding in to defeat the godless heathens and the savages.

The reality, as shown over and over again, is that the US has often treated the rest of the world and its inhabitants as sources of raw material and labour, with minimal to zero concern for humanity or decency or even human life.

As an example, I recently watched the first season of Narcos, and I kept asking myself "I wonder how Americans would feel about foreign agents acting with impunity within US borders and with the knowledge of the US government? If those agents were committing all manner of crimes up to and including murder?"

If the USA wants to proclaim itself Defender of Democracy and Human Rights, and a Leader in world affairs, you have a lot of work to do within your own borders first, if you want any credibility on the world stage. I sincerely believe that until your own house is in order, you have no right assuming you hold the high ground in international disputes, if all you have to base that claim upon is "C'mon, we're the US. We're the good guys".

Being less evil does not make you good.
Like I have said before half my ancestors got slaughtered until they were far enough south to be called Mexicans. I have no illusion that somehow 'America' leaders have some actual difference that helps them be better leaders than any other human. But other countries pretending like the world is how it is because of America, is them just being disingenuous.

I am not too concerned with us gaining 'credibility' as much as to not have idiots like Trump out there embarrassing us and making very poor decisions.

It’s not, and I don’t think anyone implied it is. It was just funny you pretty much gave the classic American “but we‘re the good guys” response. This is how the world thinks about who the greatest threat is to world peace. Hopefully this will improve with Biden, but I don’t expect Russia to replace the US on this map anytime soon or later.
No, just not a let's shit on America stance.

We will see about that map when it is shown that virtually everywhere that has a American flag on it is brought up to speed that their citizens have been under constant assault from the Russian military since at least 2014.

As for the rest of your post, it is weird that you are sounding like the Putin apologist that you claimed I was doing about America.

It will be too long to reply to each part (post limits) so don't think I am ignoring it.

"But I doubt everything is as clean cut as America bad everywhere we stepped into it."

Why does it have to be clean cut? Are you saying that if they aren't all bad then none of them are bad?

What percentage of foreign operations are allowed to be manipulative and abusive before it concerns you?
With better information and not just one demographic controlling all of our national decisions I have a lot of hope about our involvement in the rest of the world.

I am not saying it needs to be clean cut. You are taking it to the opposite extreme. I would consider looking at the entirety of a situation if I was going to draw a particular conclusion about something America has done though if I was going to pretend like I was taking some side to what we did as a nation and if it was us stepping into a decades/centuries long mess.


Excusing your misdeeds by saying that others do worse is known as the Tu Quoque Logical Fallacy.

Example I

"It is clear that a tu quoque response to an accusation can never refute the accusation. Consider the following:

  • Wilma: You cheated on your income tax. Don't you realize that's wrong
  • Walter: Hey, wait a minute. You cheated on your income tax last year. Or have you forgotten about that?
Walter may be correct in his counter-accusation, but that does not show that Wilma's accusation is false."
Thank you for the information.

But I am not excusing anything, so I guess that would be some kind of logical fallacy too that you are doing to me right?

I am sure Putin has produced all kinds of disinformation about what America has done to them, no question. But Putin has also used his nation's military to attack our citizens in our own nation.

Clinton making a statement as secretary of state that Putin did something is not the same by a mile.
 

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
It is Covid-19's birthday in the United States today.

On this day in 2020, the first known case of Covid-19 walked into a hospital in Washington State.

400,000 deaths in one year.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
We will see about that map when it is shown that virtually everywhere that has a American flag on it is brought up to speed that their citizens have been under constant assault from the Russian military since at least 2014.
“it’s the Russians’ fault” isn’t going cut it for the reasons I layed out in my previous post.

As for the rest of your post, it is weird that you are sounding like the Putin apologist that you claimed I was doing about America.
Yes it is a bit weird that that is how it sounds to you. Same for “let’s shit on America”. I always enjoy reading your posts in this forum and I find it very commendable you still try to talk sense into magats, but it seems this issue is a bit too sensitive still to be debating so I’ll leave it at:

”If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
“it’s the Russians’ fault” isn’t going cut it for the reasons I layed out in my previous post.
You boiling down everything I have said about this attack on our nation down to that bullshit line is not going to cut it either.

Yes it is a bit weird that that is how it sounds to you. Same for “let’s shit on America”. I always enjoy reading your posts in this forum and I find it very commendable you still try to talk sense into magats, but it seems this issue is a bit too sensitive still to be debating so I’ll leave it at:

”If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
It is a shame you decided what I am all about disregarding the fact that I have repeatedly stated that I don't think America is not to blame and that everything that happens is not as simple as people would like to pretend it is and that I am the one at fault here when you bring up Ukraine attack by Russian military being spoken out against by our secretary of state is the one in the wrong. I would expect the world to cry out if America decided to take over Ontario too.

But it's cool, best of luck to you.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
Honestly not trying to start a pissing match, but I was thinking about this the other day and I wonder if I could get your thoughts (and anyone else who wants to jump in).

How do you reconcile calling what your country does "intelligence gathering", while calling it "spying" when someone does it to the US?

Why are attempts to influence or even overthrow governments in other countries called "protecting America's interests abroad" but when it is done to you it is an "attack by a foreign nation"?

Again, not looking for a fight, but it seems the dual nature of the US viewpoint goes beyond Democrat/Republican and Black/white. I've recently learned of the concept of "American Exceptionalism" and it sure seems to fit the majority of what I've witnessed.
Well here it is. You asked and Trump documented American Exceptionalism for you.

In other respects, however, the United States is unusual. It is a republic; that is to say, its government was designed to be directed by the will of the people rather than the wishes of a single individual or a narrow class of elites. Republicanism is an ancient form of government but one uncommon throughout history, in part because of its fragility, which has tended to make republics short-lived. Contemporary Americans tend to forget how historically rare republicanism has been, in part because of the success of republicanism in our time, which is derived in no small part from the very example and success of America.


In the document, they explain why slavery was good and the civil rights movement was not. It's all clear to me now. I'm glad to have such a wonderful and clear explanation to give you. Trump! Four More Years!

What a wonderful circular argument the President's 1776 Commission gives us.

the success of republicanism in our time, which is derived in no small part from the very example and success of America.

America is successful because of our success!
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Like I have said before half my ancestors got slaughtered until they were far enough south to be called Mexicans. I have no illusion that somehow 'America' leaders have some actual difference that helps them be better leaders than any other human. But other countries pretending like the world is how it is because of America, is them just being disingenuous.

I am not too concerned with us gaining 'credibility' as much as to not have idiots like Trump out there embarrassing us and making very poor decisions.


No, just not a let's shit on America stance.

We will see about that map when it is shown that virtually everywhere that has a American flag on it is brought up to speed that their citizens have been under constant assault from the Russian military since at least 2014.

As for the rest of your post, it is weird that you are sounding like the Putin apologist that you claimed I was doing about America.

It will be too long to reply to each part (post limits) so don't think I am ignoring it.


With better information and not just one demographic controlling all of our national decisions I have a lot of hope about our involvement in the rest of the world.

I am not saying it needs to be clean cut. You are taking it to the opposite extreme. I would consider looking at the entirety of a situation if I was going to draw a particular conclusion about something America has done though if I was going to pretend like I was taking some side to what we did as a nation and if it was us stepping into a decades/centuries long mess.



Thank you for the information.

But I am not excusing anything, so I guess that would be some kind of logical fallacy too that you are doing to me right?

I am sure Putin has produced all kinds of disinformation about what America has done to them, no question. But Putin has also used his nation's military to attack our citizens in our own nation.

Clinton making a statement as secretary of state that Putin did something is not the same by a mile.
The US is still the largest risk to world peace and will be for years to come. The reason the US is the largest risk to world peace is because we've shown the people of other nations that we have an unstable government. Rule of law is no longer followed by almost half the people in this country. Each incoming president reverses the policy decisions of the previous one. Treaties, negotiations, UN resolutions are all at the whim of whoever sits in the WH. This situation will remain for at least a decade. So, yeah, I agree that the US is the largest risk to world peace right now. Considering what Russia and China are doing, the fact that the US is worse says something.

Regarding the excuse that "Putin did it". Propaganda was used by both Russian and US operators. The attack came from within and without. It wasn't so much of a conspiracy than it was sharp operators attacking an obvious weakness in the US. Despite the onslaught, a majority in the population were not won over. Not even close. Why do you think that is? Why did that propaganda mostly affect racist leaning white men who are pretty well off? That was intended to be a leading question and indicates how I would answer.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
400,000 dead today and at least Joe is fitting in a remembrance at the Lincoln memorial tonight before he begins the job officially. Donald can't be bothered with such a remembrance or ceremony, it would be admitting a mistake and mass murder.
WATCH LIVE | Biden hosts vigil for coronavirus victims at Lincoln Memorial

President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala D. Harris will attend a vigil for coronavirus victims the evening before their inauguration on Jan. 19. The ceremony will feature lights around the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool and the ringing of church bells around Washington, D.C.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
The US is still the largest risk to world peace and will be for years to come. The reason the US is the largest risk to world peace is because we've shown the people of other nations that we have an unstable government. Rule of law is no longer followed by almost half the people in this country. Each incoming president reverses the policy decisions of the previous one. Treaties, negotiations, UN resolutions are all at the whim of whoever sits in the WH.
We are the largest economy by far, that alone of course makes us one of the biggest 'risks'.

As for 'half the people' not following the rule of law, I disagree strongly.

New presidents can as we have unfortuntnalty saw undo the non-binding executive orders and force a trade war with about 25% tariffs. But I didn't see any evidence that they could do shit about the actual treaties when they get passed through the congress and signed into law by the POTUS. There is a reason why Trump had to act like a baby and couldn't do shit but act like a spoiled brat with the EU.

If nothing else this should help other nations to understand the importance of doing actual treaties with our nation and not just hope for the best with how they want it to be but not actually making the changes necessary to get it signed into law here.

This situation will remain for at least a decade.
I disagree. I am not saying that the Democrats (and ultimately the Republicans that haven't acted as seditionists) don't have to keep focused for the next decade to plug all the holes Trump has exposed, but Trump is gone tomorrow, the heaviest lifting was done by over 81 million American voters who for the next decade will still be there to make sure the 76 million brainwashed Americans don't vote in another would be dictator.

This situation will remain for at least a decade. So, yeah, I agree that the US is the largest risk to world peace right now. Considering what Russia and China are doing, the fact that the US is worse says something.
We just got rid of our would be dictator in one term by voting them out. What are China and Russia going to do with theirs?



Regarding the excuse that "Putin did it". Propaganda was used by both Russian and US operators. The attack came from within and without.
Wow. I am not sure if you are trying to troll me with this shit.

The Russian military attacked a couple hundred million Americans. Not some dick sitting on their mom's couch, the Russian military. A foreign nation used their resources, yes along with too many American traitors, to attack our citizens with a constant propaganda trolling attack to get Trump elected in 2016.

To diminish the role Putin has played in this is extremely insulting. As is pretending like this is just an American issue, Brexit, Yellow Vest rioting, the rise in right wing politicians across Europe, Sweden's 'herd immunity', on and on are all examples of other nations getting attacked by the same attack that the Russian military has been conducting unchecked on our society because Trump needed it to have any chance at getting re-elected.

And I do not just claim it is Russia alone. I have made it a point that Saudi's, UAE, Netanyahu, etc all have their hands in this attack that has been conducted. But as of right now, the Russian military is the only one that has been shown over and over again to have been attacking our citizens.

It wasn't so much of a conspiracy than it was sharp operators attacking an obvious weakness in the US.
A obvious weakened within humanity. None of us were ready for the speed and pinpoint accuracy of the attack that was conducted, and we all were impacted.

Despite the onslaught, a majority in the population were not won over. Not even close.
True.

Why do you think that is?
Because Putin picked the worst possible candidate to keep his mouth shut and not let the world in on the con.

But for that and the idiots criminals that Trump surrounded himself with, we may have not even found out about the Russian attack.


Why did that propaganda mostly affect racist leaning white men who are pretty well off? That was intended to be a leading question and indicates how I would answer.
Because they were already being propagandized for decades/their entire lives.

And were the demographic that had the perfect blend of enough privilege to have cable TV (Fox), internet access to get his with the troll propaganda.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
We are the largest economy by far, that alone of course makes us one of the biggest 'risks'.

As for 'half the people' not following the rule of law, I disagree strongly.

New presidents can as we have unfortuntnalty saw undo the non-binding executive orders and force a trade war with about 25% tariffs. But I didn't see any evidence that they could do shit about the actual treaties when they get passed through the congress and signed into law by the POTUS. There is a reason why Trump had to act like a baby and couldn't do shit but act like a spoiled brat with the EU.

If nothing else this should help other nations to understand the importance of doing actual treaties with our nation and not just hope for the best with how they want it to be but not actually making the changes necessary to get it signed into law here.


I disagree. I am not saying that the Democrats (and ultimately the Republicans that haven't acted as seditionists) don't have to keep focused for the next decade to plug all the holes Trump has exposed, but Trump is gone tomorrow, the heaviest lifting was done by over 81 million American voters who for the next decade will still be there to make sure the 76 million brainwashed Americans don't vote in another would be dictator.


We just got rid of our would be dictator in one term by voting them out. What are China and Russia going to do with theirs?




Wow. I am not sure if you are trying to troll me with this shit.

The Russian military attacked a couple hundred million Americans. Not some dick sitting on their mom's couch, the Russian military. A foreign nation used their resources, yes along with too many American traitors, to attack our citizens with a constant propaganda trolling attack to get Trump elected in 2016.

To diminish the role Putin has played in this is extremely insulting. As is pretending like this is just an American issue, Brexit, Yellow Vest rioting, the rise in right wing politicians across Europe, Sweden's 'herd immunity', on and on are all examples of other nations getting attacked by the same attack that the Russian military has been conducting unchecked on our society because Trump needed it to have any chance at getting re-elected.

And I do not just claim it is Russia alone. I have made it a point that Saudi's, UAE, Netanyahu, etc all have their hands in this attack that has been conducted. But as of right now, the Russian military is the only one that has been shown over and over again to have been attacking our citizens.

A obvious weakened within humanity. None of us were ready for the speed and pinpoint accuracy of the attack that was conducted, and we all were impacted.


True.


Because Putin picked the worst possible candidate to keep his mouth shut and not let the world in on the con.

But for that and the idiots criminals that Trump surrounded himself with, we may have not even found out about the Russian attack.


Because they were already being propagandized for decades/their entire lives.

And were the demographic that had the perfect blend of enough privilege to have cable TV (Fox), internet access to get his with the troll propaganda.
You see it as America was brainwashed but can recover. I see it as America was always like this. Authoritarian white power was baked into our country at the beginning with slavery and it continued with little interruption until recently. Since the inception of this country the status quo has been an authoritarian state with white people given more freedom than all others. White people's role has been to maintain the authoritarian status quo for the elites who hold the majority of the power. Demographic shift and social change is eroding the status quo. Authoritarian leaders and followers are hostile to social change. Authoritarian white supremacists now represent about 40% of our society at this time. Putin saw their susceptibility to propaganda as did the authoritarian leader/elite in the US. Foreign and domestic propagandists converged rather than conspired to pump out the propaganda that has so radicalized the authoritarian whites who are every bit as violent today as they were fifty years ago.

The US is in the early stages of a shift from authoritarian racist state with a privileged voting class to a diverse and universal democracy. The propaganda is just fuel to the fire. 80% of the Republican Party supports Trump. That kind of representation in our society cannot be called "fringe". We aren't going to change, or even have a good response to their antidemocratic insurrection unless we recognize that the people who sent a mob to sack our Capitol Building and attempt to murder Trump's political enemies is as much a part of our society as those who object to what they did.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
You see it as America was brainwashed but can recover.
Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 5.40.22 AM.png

I see it as America was conned while simultaneously attacked by a foreign military, and can recover.

I see it as America was always like this.
I can almost agree with this. But it's not correct. 66% of our nation's population now has a say in the direction of our nation that historically did not.

The 33% still have far more power than they should, but fortunately a large portion of that 33% understand the value of working with the awesome potential of 100% of our nation.

Authoritarian white power was baked into our country at the beginning with slavery and it continued with little interruption until recently. Since the inception of this country the status quo has been an authoritarian state with white people given more freedom than all others. White people's role has been to maintain the authoritarian status quo for the elites who hold the majority of the power.
True. Although White women got the shit end of the stick of white privilege.


Demographic shift and social change is eroding the status quo. Authoritarian leaders and followers are hostile to social change. Authoritarian white supremacists now represent about 40% of our society at this time. Putin saw their susceptibility to propaganda as did the authoritarian leader/elite in the US. Foreign and domestic propagandists converged rather than conspired to pump out the propaganda that has so radicalized the authoritarian whites who are every bit as violent today as they were fifty years ago.
Again false with some misleading and playing down of the over 100 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian military prior to the 2016 election. Sure I do think that Russia would have continued on their attack without Trump, the coordination was what made it especially potent. Trump weaponizing the email scam that the Russian's cooked up being an example of this.

And 23% of our nation voted for Trump, not 40%. I don't know why people continue to use misleading stats with this.

Of that 23% I would say easily half were victim of the propaganda war that Trump had sparked with his attack on protestors and white supremacists using the cover of the protests as cover to scare people into voting for him had nothing to do with them being violent. 11% is still a huge number, but my estimate would put the true believers and white nationalists under that.

The real genius (as much as I hate to give credit to them for this it is true) of this attack was to push the propaganda of 'both sides' in order to nudge out voters on the left that would never vote for Trump. Shaving those votes (in key districts/states) was what worked to push Trump over Clinton in 2016.

The US is in the early stages of a shift from authoritarian racist state with a privileged voting class to a diverse and universal democracy.
I agree, it is about 30-50 years in the making. And that was to get one party to finally get to the point that they are representing 100% of our nation. Once the Republicans shake off their single demographic roots, the Wealthy White Heterosexual Male Only agenda can finally take a hint and join in with the rest of the country to work to get things we need done.

The propaganda is just fuel to the fire. 80% of the Republican Party supports Trump.
It is understandable since the propaganda attack has not stopped.

When you get people to think crazy shit like Democrats pull babies from their mothers arms and severe their spines, drink baby blood, are going to force your little girl to pee next to a big cross dressing trucker, force your religion to break up, indoctrinate your children into communism with schools, dump chemicals out of planes to kill crops, flood the country with brown immigrants, on and on, supporting the person who was supposedly fighting all this just makes sense.

Let's see where they are in a couple months when the reality of this attack can finally get discussed and declassified.

That kind of representation in our society cannot be called "fringe".
You are pretending like I am playing down the dangerous impact of the attack that the Russian military and Trump have been conducting on the American people. I am not. But the truly batshit crazy, is the fringe, 10 million people in a society of over 320 million people is still the fringe.

We aren't going to change, or even have a good response to their antidemocratic insurrection unless we recognize that the people who sent a mob to sack our Capitol Building and attempt to murder Trump's political enemies is as much a part of our society as those who object to what they did.
We will see.

Over 81 million people stood up to the assault on our democracy.

And to quote a truly fucking horrible person.

And on November 3rd 2020, and again on January 5th 2021, and a third time on January 6th 2021. Democracy won over the foreign military and domestic dictator and his minions attack on it.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
'Pharmacy of the World will deliver': India begins COVID-19 vaccine exports - ABC News (go.com)

'Pharmacy of the World will deliver': India begins COVID-19 vaccine exports
India said it will be shipping to Bhutan, Maldives, Bangladesh and more.

LONDON -- India has begun exporting Covid-19 vaccines to neighboring countries with the first batches being shipped Wednesday to Bhutan, Maldives, Bangladesh, Nepal, Myanmar and Seychelles, the foreign ministry said.

“First consignment takes off for Bhutan!” was the first of a flurry of tweets from the Foreign Ministry spokesman, Anurag Srivastava, as he posted pictures of batches leaving and arriving at different destinations, “Indian vaccines reach Maldives, reflects our special friendship.”

“India is deeply honoured to be a long-trusted partner in meeting the healthcare needs of the global community,” Prime Minister Narendra Modi tweeted Tuesday as he announced the first shipments would be sent today.

India is sending these vaccine batches “under grant assistance”, a foreign ministry press release said, as the government had “received several requests for the supply of Indian manufactured vaccines from neighboring and key partner countries.”

Dubbed “Neighbourhood First”, Prime Minister Modi’s foreign policy focus has often been on improving ties with India’s immediate neighbors, which would explain the destination of these first vaccine shipments.

India’s External Affairs minister Subrahmanyam Jaishankar said his country was fulfilling “its commitment to give vaccines to humanity…The Pharmacy of the World will deliver to overcome the COVID challenge,” he tweeted . India is home to the world’s largest vaccine producer by volume, the Serum Institute of India (SII), based in Pune.

The Serum Institute is producing the vaccine developed by Oxford University and Astra Zeneca under the local brand name COVISHIELD and will distribute it to India, its neighboring countries and other low and middle income countries.

SII is currently producing approximately 60 million doses of COVISHIELD a month and aims to increase this to a 100 million doses by March. SII has also agreed to supply COVAX, the WHO backed alliance created to ensure equitable access to vaccines, with 200 million doses to be distributed at the beginning of 2021.
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
View attachment 4801874

I see it as America was conned while simultaneously attacked by a foreign military, and can recover.


I can almost agree with this. But it's not correct. 66% of our nation's population now has a say in the direction of our nation that historically did not.

The 33% still have far more power than they should, but fortunately a large portion of that 33% understand the value of working with the awesome potential of 100% of our nation.

True. Although White women got the shit end of the stick of white privilege.



Again false with some misleading and playing down of the over 100 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian military prior to the 2016 election. Sure I do think that Russia would have continued on their attack without Trump, the coordination was what made it especially potent. Trump weaponizing the email scam that the Russian's cooked up being an example of this.

And 23% of our nation voted for Trump, not 40%. I don't know why people continue to use misleading stats with this.

Of that 23% I would say easily half were victim of the propaganda war that Trump had sparked with his attack on protestors and white supremacists using the cover of the protests as cover to scare people into voting for him had nothing to do with them being violent. 11% is still a huge number, but my estimate would put the true believers and white nationalists under that.

The real genius (as much as I hate to give credit to them for this it is true) of this attack was to push the propaganda of 'both sides' in order to nudge out voters on the left that would never vote for Trump. Shaving those votes (in key districts/states) was what worked to push Trump over Clinton in 2016.

I agree, it is about 30-50 years in the making. And that was to get one party to finally get to the point that they are representing 100% of our nation. Once the Republicans shake off their single demographic roots, the Wealthy White Heterosexual Male Only agenda can finally take a hint and join in with the rest of the country to work to get things we need done.


It is understandable since the propaganda attack has not stopped.

When you get people to think crazy shit like Democrats pull babies from their mothers arms and severe their spines, drink baby blood, are going to force your little girl to pee next to a big cross dressing trucker, force your religion to break up, indoctrinate your children into communism with schools, dump chemicals out of planes to kill crops, flood the country with brown immigrants, on and on, supporting the person who was supposedly fighting all this just makes sense.

Let's see where they are in a couple months when the reality of this attack can finally get discussed and declassified.


You are pretending like I am playing down the dangerous impact of the attack that the Russian military and Trump have been conducting on the American people. I am not. But the truly batshit crazy, is the fringe, 10 million people in a society of over 320 million people is still the fringe.


We will see.

Over 81 million people stood up to the assault on our democracy.

And to quote a truly fucking horrible person.

And on November 3rd 2020, and again on January 5th 2021, and a third time on January 6th 2021. Democracy won over the foreign military and domestic dictator and his minions attack on it.
There has always been a violent white supremacist faction in the US. Putin didn't radicalize these young men:

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They grew older, joined the Republican Party in the 1980's and are by now in their 80's. They and their children make up the base of Trump. It appears to me that they were already violence-prone racists.

We have been given some great advice through two SNL openings by Dave Chappelle that lampooned the shock white people had when confronted by election results that showed there are a LOT of racist white people:



Chappelle doesn't seem to think that we should be surprised that Trump won in 2016 or that Trump got 74 million votes in 2020. He tells us that it's no surprise to him. The story that I think is closer to the truth is that we have a tens of millions of people who are authoritarian white racists and the propaganda was meant to agitate and motivate them. It did not create them. More than half of all white people in this country are violence prone white supremacists. They would be like that without the propaganda.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
There has always been a violent white supremacist faction in the US. Putin didn't radicalize these young men:

View attachment 4802387

They grew older, joined the Republican Party in the 1980's and are by now in their 80's. They and their children make up the base of Trump. It appears to me that they were already violence-prone racists.

We have been given some great advice through two SNL openings by Dave Chappelle that lampooned the shock white people had to find out that there are a LOT of racist white people:



Chappelle doesn't seem to think that we should be surprised that Trump won in 2016 or that Trump got 74 million votes in 2020. He tells us that it's no surprise to him. The story that I think is closer to the truth is that we have a deep number of people who are authoritarian white racists and the propaganda was meant to agitate and motivate them. It did not create them. More than half of all white people in this country are violence prone white supremacists. They would be like that without the propaganda.

Connecting like minded racists that are found through data analysis and setting up bullshit 'counter-protests' as well as the actual protest is something that the Russian military can do to increase the division and amplifying the feelings that each group has to use again and again until you get a mob of idiots showing up on Jan 6th 2021 to storm the capital.

I never said we should be surprised. And I am not, and was not outside of the 2016 election because I was not aware of the suppression/data analysis portion of the trolling attack that the Russian military was doing to our citizens. I was never naive about the real racism and sexism that existed.

As for 'creating' the racists, we should be careful with not thinking that some people were turned into racists through extreme propaganda spam showing them the worst things going on in 'minority cities'. Just like we can look at the attack on the hispanic communities and the radicalization of people against (for example) 'Black Lives Matter'.

This attack is too pinpoint accurate at any and all of our vulnerabilities as a society to stick to too many generalizations.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
We’ll probably hear a lot more stories like this in the coming months:


Biden inheriting nonexistent coronavirus vaccine distribution plan and must start 'from scratch,' sources say
 
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