What deficiencies does this look like?

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
I've been using the same soil for a couple years now and I'm having issues with nutrient deficiency. My water has Ca in it already I'm sure, and I was top dressing with Ca based amendments. So my thought was too much Ca is locking out Mg and K. I've cut out most of the Ca based stuff for now to see if it helps. What are all your guys thoughts? Gotta tag in @Renfro , @kratos015 , @Richard Drysift , but I welcome everyone's opinions.

I mostly just use plain 7.5 or so well water. It's like 160 PPM or something.

And I should clarify that I'm only using organics.

IMG_4638.JPGIMG_4637.JPGIMG_4636.JPGIMG_4635.JPGIMG_4634.JPGIMG_4633.JPGIMG_4632.JPGIMG_4631.JPG
 
Last edited:

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
I've been using the same soil for a couple years now and I'm having issues with nutrient deficiency. My water has Ca in it already I'm sure, and I was top dressing with Ca based amendments. So my thought was too much Ca is locking out Mg and K. I've cut out most of the Ca based stuff for now to see if it helps. What are all your guys thoughts? Gotta tag in @Renfro , @kratos015 , @Richard Drysift , but I welcome everyone's opinions.

I mostly just use plain 7.5 or so well water. It's like 160 PPM or something.

And I should clarify that I'm only using organics.

View attachment 4769724View attachment 4769722View attachment 4769719View attachment 4769718View attachment 4769717View attachment 4769715View attachment 4769714View attachment 4769713
looks like multiple things going on. K,Zn,Mag and Mg. I think you’re right with too much Ca in the mix.

What’s the ppm of your well water?
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
Could be the calcium locking out K but thats just a guess. Not like the feed can be quantified, maybe it's just lacking K. I am not an organic grower so I can't be much help. Sorry. Good luck with your plant.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Could be the calcium locking out K but thats just a guess. Not like the feed can be quantified, maybe it's just lacking K. I am not an organic grower so I can't be much help. Sorry. Good luck with your plant.
Thanks for the response. I've been giving it less Ca, and a little more K. We'll see if I can get this figured out. I knew things were gonna get complicated with no-till.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
Thanks,

Mag and Mg?

My well water is like around 150 ppm, so not too bad.
Thats lower than my tap.

Unable to quantify the top dress so I dunno how much that added and continues to add. If you are just short on K and that is a possibility, then the problem will get worse.

If I were bottle feeding a plant and I saw that I would figure out what my feed is providing, if there is a low K number and calcium isn't too out of whack then I would add K. So what we are stuck with is trial and error, go with your gut and if the reduced calcium doesn't prevent the plant from getting worse or you start to see signs of a calcium def then it was the K being too low.

Did you just flip the plant? The need for feed goes up. How long has the plant been in the soil? Soil usually becomes exhausted after 6 - 8 weeks, but you know that.
 

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
Thanks,

Mag and Mg?

My well water is like around 150 ppm, so not too bad.
Sorry Meant to say manganese. Yeah that’s should be but still a guessing game knowing what it’s composed of.

Renfro had solid advice. If it continues then try adding some K.

if it still gets worse perhaps the soil isn’t keeping up with her needs?

But usually when there’s multiple deficiencies coming at once it’s pH related or abundance of a particular element.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Thats lower than my tap.

Unable to quantify the top dress so I dunno how much that added and continues to add. If you are just short on K and that is a possibility, then the problem will get worse.

If I were bottle feeding a plant and I saw that I would figure out what my feed is providing, if there is a low K number and calcium isn't too out of whack then I would add K. So what we are stuck with is trial and error, go with your gut and if the reduced calcium doesn't prevent the plant from getting worse or you start to see signs of a calcium def then it was the K being too low.

Did you just flip the plant? The need for feed goes up. How long has the plant been in the soil? Soil usually becomes exhausted after 6 - 8 weeks, but you know that.
I know, it's hard to figure out what nutrients are in there since I've top dressed with all kinda of stuff. A lot of them were Ca based though like oyster shell flour and fish bone meal. And some of these amendments should take awhile to break down, so the Ca might still be being released. I'm just guessing here though.

What do you mean if I'm short on K the problem will get worse? Are you saying that if I'm short on K the Ca excess toxicity will get worse if I feed it more K, if that's what's going on? I was thinking I should give slightly more K until the Ca levels lower, but maybe I'm way off. I'm talking about just a little extra K at a time.

That plant is still in veg. I'm trying no-till, so the soil is like 2 years old now. My guess is that I've overdone the Ca based amendments, but I really am just guessing. If worse comes to worse I'll get it tested someday maybe. I'm trying to figure it out without testing it though.

Here's one I took last night at day 30 since flip. The deficiencies get worse every time during flower.
IMG_4619.JPG
 

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
I know, it's hard to figure out what nutrients are in there since I've top dressed with all kinda of stuff. A lot of them were Ca based though like oyster shell flour and fish bone meal. And some of these amendments should take awhile to break down, so the Ca might still be being released. I'm just guessing here though.

What do you mean if I'm short on K the problem will get worse? Are you saying that if I'm short on K the Ca excess toxicity will get worse if I feed it more K, if that's what's going on? I was thinking I should give slightly more K until the Ca levels lower, but maybe I'm way off. I'm talking about just a little extra K at a time.

That plant is still in veg. I'm trying no-till, so the soil is like 2 years old now. My guess is that I've overdone the Ca based amendments, but I really am just guessing. If worse comes to worse I'll get it tested someday maybe. I'm trying to figure it out without testing it though.

Here's one I took last night at day 30 since flip. The deficiencies get worse every time during flower.
View attachment 4770193
That time release looks like it’s hitting your plants when they want more K. Hence it keeps hitting you mid flower.

Perhaps add less to begin with and top dress throughout to break up the release?
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I've been using the same soil for a couple years now and I'm having issues with nutrient deficiency. My water has Ca in it already I'm sure, and I was top dressing with Ca based amendments. So my thought was too much Ca is locking out Mg and K. I've cut out most of the Ca based stuff for now to see if it helps. What are all your guys thoughts? Gotta tag in @Renfro , @kratos015 , @Richard Drysift , but I welcome everyone's opinions.

I mostly just use plain 7.5 or so well water. It's like 160 PPM or something.

And I should clarify that I'm only using organics.
What Ca based amendments were you top dressing with?
Are you 100% certain the water itself is Calcified?
Have you done any soil pH tests with both your well water and distilled water?


A few thoughts before receiving the answers to the questions above.

160ppm is fairly low. My water tests between 400-440ppm, personally. My well water is 7.5pH at the lowest and typically around 8.0 on average.

I'm quite confident the issue with my water is it has a form of Calcium Carbonate in it for multiple reasons.

1) Anything in contact with this water sees scaling within a matter of a week. Even letting water evaporate in a glass cup will show rings.
2) The water itself always buffers back to 7.5-8.0pH. I did a test for a few days with a shotglass full of water and pH testing liquid. Liquid was always 8.0pH in color. I would squeeze lime, vinegar, and even pH down into the water until the red color for 4.0pH would show. Within 24 hours, the color would always reverse to 8.0pH.

Both of these factors lead me to believe there is some form of Calcium Carbonate within my water, there is nothing else that I personally know of that can keep a pH buffered this high.

I used to buffer my peat moss with dolomite lime, bringing the pH to around 6.5-7.0 or so. Adding my 8.0 pH water, combined with the salt build up from said water, resulted in my soil pH being the same as my water; 7.5-8.0 pH.

Removing all buffering agents (OSF/Lime) and Calcium inputs (Crab Meal, gypsum) was the only thing that worked for me. The 8.0 pH water combined with the 4.0 pH peat moss kept my pH at a perfect 6.0-6.5 pH. The water also provided me with sufficient Calcium, while mixing Epsom Salts into the soil (and foliar feeding with them) provided me with sufficient Mg. The outdoor plants in this soil provided the best yields and quality I've ever had since living on this well. I did have to start with new soil, buying new peat moss and ensuring it had zero dolomite lime in it.

The key to this is in two things though;

1) You must be absolutely certain that your water isn't just calcified, but that it buffers pH as well.
2) You must use peat moss for your substrate. The acidity of the peat is mandatory in balancing the well water.

Again, everything above that I've said assumes that your water is capable of buffering pH.

Since you're on a well, this is likely. Municipal water typically has it added in, so it doesn't have much buffering ability.

Well water, on the other hand, has minerals that have dissolved over time and will end up in your water source without some sort of filter.



My recent grow is using a peat moss based soil, hardware store didn't have peat moss bales. I went with this soil because it listed zero buffering agents in the list. The assholes must have just not listed them, and perhaps thought the consumer (me) would assume it had buffering agents in it already. Now my well water is fucking things up again.



The following two products are helping me somewhat, but it requires consistent work and is not as perfect as my last batch of soil was. I will have to make new soil next time, you will too.

Calcium filters and Liquid soil acidifier

The Fertilome product can be had cheaper at a hardware store, if they sell it. My Ace Hardware has it for $10/bottle instead of $15.

I use it every other watering, only thing that is remotely helping. I pH tested the Fertilome infused water after 24 hours, the pH never buffered back to 8.0 and stayed where I left it.

This is of course a pain in the ass for my 20+ plants. I have to mix buckets fill of this solution, adding small amounts of it at a time until my pH tests show a 6.0-6.5 pH, and then water the Fertilome infused water in manually every other watering. Does the job, but isn't as ideal as if I had just waited another week for peat moss bales. Price I pay for not wanting to make the 2 hour commute again.

The sulfuric acid reacts with the calcium carbonate, breaking the Calcium Carbonate apart into something that won't buffer your soil's pH anymore.


Thats lower than my tap.

Unable to quantify the top dress so I dunno how much that added and continues to add. If you are just short on K and that is a possibility, then the problem will get worse.

If I were bottle feeding a plant and I saw that I would figure out what my feed is providing, if there is a low K number and calcium isn't too out of whack then I would add K. So what we are stuck with is trial and error, go with your gut and if the reduced calcium doesn't prevent the plant from getting worse or you start to see signs of a calcium def then it was the K being too low.

Did you just flip the plant? The need for feed goes up. How long has the plant been in the soil? Soil usually becomes exhausted after 6 - 8 weeks, but you know that.
Normally I'd agree with this 100%, as low K will prevent Ca or Mg from even being absorbed. But I'm seeing more deficiencies on OPs plant than just those, so I'm inclined to believe this is a problem with the pH being out of whack as opposed to excess Ca.

If OPs water is truly capable of buffering pH and he is top dressing with something like OSF (which is also a buffer) then I can see how all these deficiencies would be appearing.

This looks more like a pH issue to me, personally.

If you look closely at the 2nd to last picture, you'll see lots of purple petioles as well as a bluish "sheen" on the leaves themselves which points to P being locked out as well.


I know, it's hard to figure out what nutrients are in there since I've top dressed with all kinda of stuff. A lot of them were Ca based though like oyster shell flour and fish bone meal. And some of these amendments should take awhile to break down, so the Ca might still be being released. I'm just guessing here though.

What do you mean if I'm short on K the problem will get worse? Are you saying that if I'm short on K the Ca excess toxicity will get worse if I feed it more K, if that's what's going on? I was thinking I should give slightly more K until the Ca levels lower, but maybe I'm way off. I'm talking about just a little extra K at a time.

That plant is still in veg. I'm trying no-till, so the soil is like 2 years old now. My guess is that I've overdone the Ca based amendments, but I really am just guessing. If worse comes to worse I'll get it tested someday maybe. I'm trying to figure it out without testing it though.

Here's one I took last night at day 30 since flip. The deficiencies get worse every time during flower.
I was afraid of this. OSF is a pH buffer, so if you already have a pH buffer in your soil (OSF or lime) and you've top dressed with OSF then you have overlimed your soil. The pH of your soil is certainly out of whack now, unfortunately.

If at all possible, do a couple tests to confirm this.

1) Test the pH of your runoff
2) Take some soil from one of your plants and let it sit in your water for 12-24 hours. Strain the soil from the water, then pH test the water itself.

If the pH tests from both tests show a pH of 7.5 or higher then your pH is too high and is causing all sorts of lockouts like I'm seeing in the pictures. Anything higher than a 7.0 pH is going to cause lockout of some sort.

Sorry I couldn't give better news.

And sorry for the book, replies kept coming in as I was typing this.




tl;dr: Too much buffering agents in the soil, pH lockout is the problem here IMO.
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
What do you mean if I'm short on K the problem will get worse?
I am just saying that if calcium wasn't the problem, K def turns out to be the cause, and you pull calcium then you may get a cal def along with the K def. Does your gut say that you have plenty of K? I did see in that post that came in while I was typing that you added a little K so thats probably good. I really suspect the K def is the issue, if it's locked out by calcium or just not present it looks like a K def to me. When they go into flower the need for K goes up. Anyways, it's just hard for a third party to quantify how much calcium has been added and if it is still being released or not, it is also difficult to quantify how much K is present. So go with your gut, like you did reducing ca and increasing K a little probably covers both bases, just watch for any sign of a cal def. It sucks to have to diagnose feed issues in flower because you aren't getting new nodes and leaves to show if you are going in the right direction, all you have is the existing growth to read. So your gut is the way to go. I assume you have thought about pH?
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I know, it's hard to figure out what nutrients are in there since I've top dressed with all kinda of stuff. A lot of them were Ca based though like oyster shell flour and fish bone meal. And some of these amendments should take awhile to break down, so the Ca might still be being released. I'm just guessing here though.

What do you mean if I'm short on K the problem will get worse? Are you saying that if I'm short on K the Ca excess toxicity will get worse if I feed it more K, if that's what's going on? I was thinking I should give slightly more K until the Ca levels lower, but maybe I'm way off. I'm talking about just a little extra K at a time.

That plant is still in veg. I'm trying no-till, so the soil is like 2 years old now. My guess is that I've overdone the Ca based amendments, but I really am just guessing. If worse comes to worse I'll get it tested someday maybe. I'm trying to figure it out without testing it though.

Here's one I took last night at day 30 since flip. The deficiencies get worse every time during flower.
View attachment 4770193
If you're short on K, Mg, or Ca then the opposite of having excess will happen.

Having excess causes lockout.
Having deficiencies of one prevents the others from being absorbed.

However, I personally don't believe either of those are the issue here as we're seeing other micro-nutrient deficiencies and even signs of a P deficiency in its intermediate phase. The bluish sheen and purple petioles are a dead give away.

If the issue here was just K, Mg, and/or Ca we wouldn't see other deficiencies here.

Top dressing with OSF has overlimed your soil unfortunately, your pH is likely at around an 8.0 and is causing lockout.
 

kovidkough

Well-Known Member
What Ca based amendments were you top dressing with?
Are you 100% certain the water itself is Calcified?
Have you done any soil pH tests with both your well water and distilled water?


A few thoughts before receiving the answers to the questions above.

160ppm is fairly low. My water tests between 400-440ppm, personally. My well water is 7.5pH at the lowest and typically around 8.0 on average.

I'm quite confident the issue with my water is it has a form of Calcium Carbonate in it for multiple reasons.

1) Anything in contact with this water sees scaling within a matter of a week. Even letting water evaporate in a glass cup will show rings.
2) The water itself always buffers back to 7.5-8.0pH. I did a test for a few days with a shotglass full of water and pH testing liquid. Liquid was always 8.0pH in color. I would squeeze lime, vinegar, and even pH down into the water until the red color for 4.0pH would show. Within 24 hours, the color would always reverse to 8.0pH.

Both of these factors lead me to believe there is some form of Calcium Carbonate within my water, there is nothing else that I personally know of that can keep a pH buffered this high.

I used to buffer my peat moss with dolomite lime, bringing the pH to around 6.5-7.0 or so. Adding my 8.0 pH water, combined with the salt build up from said water, resulted in my soil pH being the same as my water; 7.5-8.0 pH.

Removing all buffering agents (OSF/Lime) and Calcium inputs (Crab Meal, gypsum) was the only thing that worked for me. The 8.0 pH water combined with the 4.0 pH peat moss kept my pH at a perfect 6.0-6.5 pH. The water also provided me with sufficient Calcium, while mixing Epsom Salts into the soil (and foliar feeding with them) provided me with sufficient Mg. The outdoor plants in this soil provided the best yields and quality I've ever had since living on this well. I did have to start with new soil, buying new peat moss and ensuring it had zero dolomite lime in it.

The key to this is in two things though;

1) You must be absolutely certain that your water isn't just calcified, but that it buffers pH as well.
2) You must use peat moss for your substrate. The acidity of the peat is mandatory in balancing the well water.

Again, everything above that I've said assumes that your water is capable of buffering pH.

Since you're on a well, this is likely. Municipal water typically has it added in, so it doesn't have much buffering ability.

Well water, on the other hand, has minerals that have dissolved over time and will end up in your water source without some sort of filter.



My recent grow is using a peat moss based soil, hardware store didn't have peat moss bales. I went with this soil because it listed zero buffering agents in the list. The assholes must have just not listed them, and perhaps thought the consumer (me) would assume it had buffering agents in it already. Now my well water is fucking things up again.



The following two products are helping me somewhat, but it requires consistent work and is not as perfect as my last batch of soil was. I will have to make new soil next time, you will too.

Calcium filters and Liquid soil acidifier

The Fertilome product can be had cheaper at a hardware store, if they sell it. My Ace Hardware has it for $10/bottle instead of $15.

I use it every other watering, only thing that is remotely helping. I pH tested the Fertilome infused water after 24 hours, the pH never buffered back to 8.0 and stayed where I left it.

This is of course a pain in the ass for my 20+ plants. I have to mix buckets fill of this solution, adding small amounts of it at a time until my pH tests show a 6.0-6.5 pH, and then water the Fertilome infused water in manually every other watering. Does the job, but isn't as ideal as if I had just waited another week for peat moss bales. Price I pay for not wanting to make the 2 hour commute again.

The sulfuric acid reacts with the calcium carbonate, breaking the Calcium Carbonate apart into something that won't buffer your soil's pH anymore.




Normally I'd agree with this 100%, as low K will prevent Ca or Mg from even being absorbed. But I'm seeing more deficiencies on OPs plant than just those, so I'm inclined to believe this is a problem with the pH being out of whack as opposed to excess Ca.

If OPs water is truly capable of buffering pH and he is top dressing with something like OSF (which is also a buffer) then I can see how all these deficiencies would be appearing.

This looks more like a pH issue to me, personally.

If you look closely at the 2nd to last picture, you'll see lots of purple petioles as well as a bluish "sheen" on the leaves themselves which points to P being locked out as well.




I was afraid of this. OSF is a pH buffer, so if you already have a pH buffer in your soil (OSF or lime) and you've top dressed with OSF then you have overlimed your soil. The pH of your soil is certainly out of whack now, unfortunately.

If at all possible, do a couple tests to confirm this.

1) Test the pH of your runoff
2) Take some soil from one of your plants and let it sit in your water for 12-24 hours. Strain the soil from the water, then pH test the water itself.

If the pH tests from both tests show a pH of 7.5 or higher then your pH is too high and is causing all sorts of lockouts like I'm seeing in the pictures. Anything higher than a 7.0 pH is going to cause lockout of some sort.

Sorry I couldn't give better news.

And sorry for the book, replies kept coming in as I was typing this.




tl;dr: Too much buffering agents in the soil, pH lockout is the problem here IMO.
I agree, perhaps something is bleeding into your well water. I live near lime deposits and my tap water can literally get stuck on 8 just like this post suggests. is there any way to get water info from the state, maybe local water testing, or can you test your water, id understand if this was an expensive venture. this happened to me with ocean forest my tap water kept me at 8 even with tons of ph down (somewhere in the Massachusetts 2020 outdoor grow thread i have links)

it's also possible you over calcified with ammendment as they are very slow to release
 

Renfro

Well-Known Member
What Ca based amendments were you top dressing with?
Are you 100% certain the water itself is Calcified?
Have you done any soil pH tests with both your well water and distilled water?


A few thoughts before receiving the answers to the questions above.

160ppm is fairly low. My water tests between 400-440ppm, personally. My well water is 7.5pH at the lowest and typically around 8.0 on average.

I'm quite confident the issue with my water is it has a form of Calcium Carbonate in it for multiple reasons.

1) Anything in contact with this water sees scaling within a matter of a week. Even letting water evaporate in a glass cup will show rings.
2) The water itself always buffers back to 7.5-8.0pH. I did a test for a few days with a shotglass full of water and pH testing liquid. Liquid was always 8.0pH in color. I would squeeze lime, vinegar, and even pH down into the water until the red color for 4.0pH would show. Within 24 hours, the color would always reverse to 8.0pH.

Both of these factors lead me to believe there is some form of Calcium Carbonate within my water, there is nothing else that I personally know of that can keep a pH buffered this high.

I used to buffer my peat moss with dolomite lime, bringing the pH to around 6.5-7.0 or so. Adding my 8.0 pH water, combined with the salt build up from said water, resulted in my soil pH being the same as my water; 7.5-8.0 pH.

Removing all buffering agents (OSF/Lime) and Calcium inputs (Crab Meal, gypsum) was the only thing that worked for me. The 8.0 pH water combined with the 4.0 pH peat moss kept my pH at a perfect 6.0-6.5 pH. The water also provided me with sufficient Calcium, while mixing Epsom Salts into the soil (and foliar feeding with them) provided me with sufficient Mg. The outdoor plants in this soil provided the best yields and quality I've ever had since living on this well. I did have to start with new soil, buying new peat moss and ensuring it had zero dolomite lime in it.

The key to this is in two things though;

1) You must be absolutely certain that your water isn't just calcified, but that it buffers pH as well.
2) You must use peat moss for your substrate. The acidity of the peat is mandatory in balancing the well water.

Again, everything above that I've said assumes that your water is capable of buffering pH.

Since you're on a well, this is likely. Municipal water typically has it added in, so it doesn't have much buffering ability.

Well water, on the other hand, has minerals that have dissolved over time and will end up in your water source without some sort of filter.



My recent grow is using a peat moss based soil, hardware store didn't have peat moss bales. I went with this soil because it listed zero buffering agents in the list. The assholes must have just not listed them, and perhaps thought the consumer (me) would assume it had buffering agents in it already. Now my well water is fucking things up again.



The following two products are helping me somewhat, but it requires consistent work and is not as perfect as my last batch of soil was. I will have to make new soil next time, you will too.

Calcium filters and Liquid soil acidifier

The Fertilome product can be had cheaper at a hardware store, if they sell it. My Ace Hardware has it for $10/bottle instead of $15.

I use it every other watering, only thing that is remotely helping. I pH tested the Fertilome infused water after 24 hours, the pH never buffered back to 8.0 and stayed where I left it.

This is of course a pain in the ass for my 20+ plants. I have to mix buckets fill of this solution, adding small amounts of it at a time until my pH tests show a 6.0-6.5 pH, and then water the Fertilome infused water in manually every other watering. Does the job, but isn't as ideal as if I had just waited another week for peat moss bales. Price I pay for not wanting to make the 2 hour commute again.

The sulfuric acid reacts with the calcium carbonate, breaking the Calcium Carbonate apart into something that won't buffer your soil's pH anymore.




Normally I'd agree with this 100%, as low K will prevent Ca or Mg from even being absorbed. But I'm seeing more deficiencies on OPs plant than just those, so I'm inclined to believe this is a problem with the pH being out of whack as opposed to excess Ca.

If OPs water is truly capable of buffering pH and he is top dressing with something like OSF (which is also a buffer) then I can see how all these deficiencies would be appearing.

This looks more like a pH issue to me, personally.

If you look closely at the 2nd to last picture, you'll see lots of purple petioles as well as a bluish "sheen" on the leaves themselves which points to P being locked out as well.




I was afraid of this. OSF is a pH buffer, so if you already have a pH buffer in your soil (OSF or lime) and you've top dressed with OSF then you have overlimed your soil. The pH of your soil is certainly out of whack now, unfortunately.

If at all possible, do a couple tests to confirm this.

1) Test the pH of your runoff
2) Take some soil from one of your plants and let it sit in your water for 12-24 hours. Strain the soil from the water, then pH test the water itself.

If the pH tests from both tests show a pH of 7.5 or higher then your pH is too high and is causing all sorts of lockouts like I'm seeing in the pictures. Anything higher than a 7.0 pH is going to cause lockout of some sort.

Sorry I couldn't give better news.

And sorry for the book, replies kept coming in as I was typing this.




tl;dr: Too much buffering agents in the soil, pH lockout is the problem here IMO.
I am with you on pH being a factor, I would like to know the rootzone pH, right after a feed, and halfway to the next feed. I am not an organic grower at all so I have no experience here to speak of but many organic growers say pH isn't a factor with organics, I find fault with that logic personally. I just don't deal with the organic growing because it's too much guess work, I like hard numbers lol.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I am with you on pH being a factor, I would like to know the rootzone pH, right after a feed, and halfway to the next feed. I am not an organic grower at all so I have no experience here to speak of but many organic growers say pH isn't a factor with organics, I find fault with that logic personally. I just don't deal with the organic growing because it's too much guess work, I like hard numbers lol.
That's actually a half truth, and you're right in finding fault with the logic. This statement has caused many living soils to fail because it assumes the soil is up to snuff and your water isn't a problem.

If the soil is perfectly crafted, and RO water, you certainly don't have to worry about pH.

I have zero experience with synthetics, but I would imagine hard water would cause problems for the same reason it would in soil. The hard water would ruin your reservoir's overall pH and perhaps even mess with your ppm counts too no?

Why I try to post often, lots of poor information about living soil out there unfortunately.


I agree, perhaps something is bleeding into your well water. I live near lime deposits and my tap water can literally get stuck on 8 just like this post suggests. is there any way to get water info from the state, maybe local water testing, or can you test your water, id understand if this was an expensive venture. this happened to me with ocean forest my tap water kept me at 8 even with tons of ph down (somewhere in the Massachusetts 2020 outdoor grow thread i have links)

it's also possible you over calcified with ammendment as they are very slow to release
It can be expensive for sure. However, the tests I listed above are good enough to draw conclusions fortunately and are significantly less costly. Funny we both have the same issue, that 8.0 pH water is a bitch.

I'm renting, so even if I wanted to spend the money on a RO system I can't. Too much wasted water for my taste too.

Instead of changing the water, I found a way to work with it.

Running peat moss with my water and zero liming agents solved my problem immediately.
 

kovidkough

Well-Known Member
That's actually a half truth, and you're right in finding fault with the logic. This statement has caused many living soils to fail because it assumes the soil is up to snuff and your water isn't a problem.

If the soil is perfectly crafted, and RO water, you certainly don't have to worry about pH.

I have zero experience with synthetics, but I would imagine hard water would cause problems for the same reason it would in soil. The hard water would ruin your reservoir's overall pH and perhaps even mess with your ppm counts too no?

Why I try to post often, lots of poor information about living soil out there unfortunately.




It can be expensive for sure. However, the tests I listed above are good enough to draw conclusions fortunately and are significantly less costly. Funny we both have the same issue, that 8.0 pH water is a bitch.

I'm renting, so even if I wanted to spend the money on a RO system I can't. Too much wasted water for my taste too.

Instead of changing the water, I found a way to work with it.

Running peat moss with my water and zero liming agents solved my problem immediately.
yea it turned out to be in a Cambridge University study , apparently I'm not the only grower in MA who had this issue , it had me buying RO for a while. then I switched to hempy and haven't had an issue. I believe they treat the water near me with alkaline products to keep the rust or corrosion down in the pipes. drove me mad , I think I was using 1.5ml of ph down to stabilize 1 gallon. in the end it was the combo of natural lime deposit and water treatment that caused my calcium lockout, this lead to P lockout. it no longer does this but I keep an eye out for a rise in the need for PH down. you guys are organic so you may need to add additional acidifiers like sulfur to combat the alkalinity


if it is indeed the water, but also adding to much products that raise pH slowly might be the culprit , they break down at different and varying times
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
What Ca based amendments were you top dressing with?
Are you 100% certain the water itself is Calcified?
Have you done any soil pH tests with both your well water and distilled water?


A few thoughts before receiving the answers to the questions above.

160ppm is fairly low. My water tests between 400-440ppm, personally. My well water is 7.5pH at the lowest and typically around 8.0 on average.

I'm quite confident the issue with my water is it has a form of Calcium Carbonate in it for multiple reasons.

1) Anything in contact with this water sees scaling within a matter of a week. Even letting water evaporate in a glass cup will show rings.
2) The water itself always buffers back to 7.5-8.0pH. I did a test for a few days with a shotglass full of water and pH testing liquid. Liquid was always 8.0pH in color. I would squeeze lime, vinegar, and even pH down into the water until the red color for 4.0pH would show. Within 24 hours, the color would always reverse to 8.0pH.

Both of these factors lead me to believe there is some form of Calcium Carbonate within my water, there is nothing else that I personally know of that can keep a pH buffered this high.

I used to buffer my peat moss with dolomite lime, bringing the pH to around 6.5-7.0 or so. Adding my 8.0 pH water, combined with the salt build up from said water, resulted in my soil pH being the same as my water; 7.5-8.0 pH.

Removing all buffering agents (OSF/Lime) and Calcium inputs (Crab Meal, gypsum) was the only thing that worked for me. The 8.0 pH water combined with the 4.0 pH peat moss kept my pH at a perfect 6.0-6.5 pH. The water also provided me with sufficient Calcium, while mixing Epsom Salts into the soil (and foliar feeding with them) provided me with sufficient Mg. The outdoor plants in this soil provided the best yields and quality I've ever had since living on this well. I did have to start with new soil, buying new peat moss and ensuring it had zero dolomite lime in it.

The key to this is in two things though;

1) You must be absolutely certain that your water isn't just calcified, but that it buffers pH as well.
2) You must use peat moss for your substrate. The acidity of the peat is mandatory in balancing the well water.

Again, everything above that I've said assumes that your water is capable of buffering pH.

Since you're on a well, this is likely. Municipal water typically has it added in, so it doesn't have much buffering ability.

Well water, on the other hand, has minerals that have dissolved over time and will end up in your water source without some sort of filter.



My recent grow is using a peat moss based soil, hardware store didn't have peat moss bales. I went with this soil because it listed zero buffering agents in the list. The assholes must have just not listed them, and perhaps thought the consumer (me) would assume it had buffering agents in it already. Now my well water is fucking things up again.



The following two products are helping me somewhat, but it requires consistent work and is not as perfect as my last batch of soil was. I will have to make new soil next time, you will too.

Calcium filters and Liquid soil acidifier

The Fertilome product can be had cheaper at a hardware store, if they sell it. My Ace Hardware has it for $10/bottle instead of $15.

I use it every other watering, only thing that is remotely helping. I pH tested the Fertilome infused water after 24 hours, the pH never buffered back to 8.0 and stayed where I left it.

This is of course a pain in the ass for my 20+ plants. I have to mix buckets fill of this solution, adding small amounts of it at a time until my pH tests show a 6.0-6.5 pH, and then water the Fertilome infused water in manually every other watering. Does the job, but isn't as ideal as if I had just waited another week for peat moss bales. Price I pay for not wanting to make the 2 hour commute again.

The sulfuric acid reacts with the calcium carbonate, breaking the Calcium Carbonate apart into something that won't buffer your soil's pH anymore.




Normally I'd agree with this 100%, as low K will prevent Ca or Mg from even being absorbed. But I'm seeing more deficiencies on OPs plant than just those, so I'm inclined to believe this is a problem with the pH being out of whack as opposed to excess Ca.

If OPs water is truly capable of buffering pH and he is top dressing with something like OSF (which is also a buffer) then I can see how all these deficiencies would be appearing.

This looks more like a pH issue to me, personally.

If you look closely at the 2nd to last picture, you'll see lots of purple petioles as well as a bluish "sheen" on the leaves themselves which points to P being locked out as well.




I was afraid of this. OSF is a pH buffer, so if you already have a pH buffer in your soil (OSF or lime) and you've top dressed with OSF then you have overlimed your soil. The pH of your soil is certainly out of whack now, unfortunately.

If at all possible, do a couple tests to confirm this.

1) Test the pH of your runoff
2) Take some soil from one of your plants and let it sit in your water for 12-24 hours. Strain the soil from the water, then pH test the water itself.

If the pH tests from both tests show a pH of 7.5 or higher then your pH is too high and is causing all sorts of lockouts like I'm seeing in the pictures. Anything higher than a 7.0 pH is going to cause lockout of some sort.

Sorry I couldn't give better news.

And sorry for the book, replies kept coming in as I was typing this.




tl;dr: Too much buffering agents in the soil, pH lockout is the problem here IMO.
I had to go smoke a bowl before reading that's book, lol. OK, so I've read it twice and tested my pH again with my BlueLab Soil Probe. I tested multiple spots and got 6.3-6.6. I should've mentioned the pH in my first post. My well water just tested 7.8.

I've used all kinds of Ca based stuff. I've been giving them the Craft Blend from BAS and some of the ingredients I've used alone too. I've also use chicken manure.

Thorvin Premium Kelp Meal
Karanja Cake - Terviva
Alfalfa Meal
CalPhos
Camelina Meal
Crustacean Meal
Fish Meal
3x Fish Bone Meal
Soybean Meal
Sul-Po-Mag (Also Known as K-Mag or Langbeinite)
Organic Malted Barley
Premium Calcium Montmorillonite
Micronized Basalt - Blue Ridge Meta
Gypsum
Oyster Flour

We got the water tested when we moved in and the ppm was around 165 or so. It was lower than 200 for sure. I'm guessing the majority of it is Ca because my water wants to buffer the pH back up when I add acid. Weak acids won't keep it lower for long. I have a hot tub, and I would have to add muriatic acid to the water occasionally because it would slowly rise back up. We also have slight Ca deposits on sink faucets and hot tub jets. It doesn't sound like my Ca in my water is quite as bad as yours though.

Since my soil pH seems fine, I was thinking it was too much Ca causing K and Mg to be getting locked out. But I'm totally guessing. I'm totally new to Mulder's chart and symbiotic vs antagonistic nutrients.

If it is excess Ca, I was going to slowly try to get some out by adding citric acid to the water until I get a little runoff each time. Or adding a little organic nutrients that has acid in it to slowly flush some out. Like I said I'm still a beginner.

Thanks for that load of information man. You're awesome.
 
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