Powerless RDWC system design....would it work?

MisterBouncyBounce

MisterBouncyBounce

Well-Known Member
i was fiddling around trying to come up with a way to get rid of electric pumps and i came up with this design using a siphon.

i'm wondering if the basic concept could work.

basically the problem with using a siphon to transfer water is that the water level of the output has to be at least slightly lower than the input level......and so having water return to that same bucket is a problem, you can't get the returning water to flow upward on the way back.

so the key to my design is the water level of the bucket supplying the water is raised only in a section of the bucket while the actual water level is low enough to allow a return flow.



i know this highly speculative and not bound to work easily if at all but it's a lot of fun mess around with the idea.....maybe someone else could improve it.

here is a graphic explaining it. what do you think?

RDWC_system.jpg
 
skunkd0c

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
Looks complicated
why would you want to get rid of pumps when you will need air pumps anyway ?
roots will not be happy sitting in deep water unless the water has a reasonable amount of motion to sustain oxygen levels
if you want a system that is automatic but requires no power the most simple thing would be a drip system
if you could connect that to a mains water supply it could drip forever

i had a silly idea once that you could use the running water straight from a tap fed into an non electrical auto feeding device on a run to waste system drip system

little bit like those auto feeder you attach to a hose pipe to feed the lawn lol

good luck
 
tystikk

tystikk

Member
I did the reverse; I eliminated the airpump and stones by using my recirc pump to feed waterfalls in every site. Works so well I wonder why people still bother with air pumps.
 
BenFranklin

BenFranklin

Well-Known Member
Put your grow bucket in the middle on a table.... Put 2 holes opposite side of each other in your planter bucket... Lift full nutrient bucket... It drains...... To the planter, and out to the other bucket..... Then lift the other bucket it drains to the other...... A friend of mine showed me this system a long longtime ago. He'd run down every 2-3 hours.... To lift the bucket... The problem is being married to the system
The obvious way to do this is by drip emitter slowing down the drip so that you get enough oxygen supplied to the roots, which would allow you to extend your time away from the system.
i was thinking about this system last night...
 
MisterBouncyBounce

MisterBouncyBounce

Well-Known Member
skunkd0c said:
Looks complicated
why would you want to get rid of pumps when you will need air pumps anyway ?
roots will not be happy sitting in deep water unless the water has a reasonable amount of motion to sustain oxygen levels
if you want a system that is automatic but requires no power the most simple thing would be a drip system
if you could connect that to a mains water supply it could drip forever

i had a silly idea once that you could use the running water straight from a tap fed into an non electrical auto feeding device on a run to waste system drip system

little bit like those auto feeder you attach to a hose pipe to feed the lawn lol

good luck
Click to expand...
the water current and trickle from the water return and the occasional splash from the master tank is enough to keep the water oxygenated.
it's not going to be the most oxygenated but it would be enough. no air pumps at all, not even in the master tank, although that is option.


sure ideally you'd like well oxygenated water but there is also a minimum that is sufficient.

less electricity is a good thing and if it could work then when you scale it up the benefit of not needing bigger pumps become more evident.
 
skunkd0c

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
MisterBouncyBounce said:
the water current and trickle from the water return and the occasional splash from the master tank is enough to keep the water oxygenated.
it's not going to be the most oxygenated but it would be enough. no air pumps at all, not even in the master tank, although that is option.


sure ideally you'd like well oxygenated water but there is also a minimum that is sufficient.

less electricity is a good thing and if it could work then when you scale it up the benefit of not needing bigger pumps become more evident.
Click to expand...
i am aware of all this as i grow NFT
just was not sure what your goal is

with NFT a pump using 6 watts of electricity can oxygenate a system that can produce over 1kg of dried flowers
so 60 watts of pumps could produce 10kg

personally i would look elsewhere for power savings
lights for example lol

peace
 
MisterBouncyBounce

MisterBouncyBounce

Well-Known Member
skunkd0c said:
i am aware of all this as i grow NFT
just was not sure what your goal is

with NFT a pump using 6 watts of electricity can oxygenate a system that can produce over 1kg of dried flowers
so 60 watts of pumps could produce 10kg

personally i would look elsewhere for power savings
lights for example lol

peace
Click to expand...
i wasn't getting snarky or anything, sorry if i came off that way. just trying to say my goal was not to use electricity.

once you can do that, you can take this system anywhere, like out doors.

it's not something i'm going to try.......just exploring theoretical designs.......the idea is not power savings but to be totally powerless.
how to move water without using power is an awesome challenge and i posted it in that spirit.
 
BenFranklin

BenFranklin

Well-Known Member
Sorry but.... Skunk doc.. With that kind of logic, putting a rear spoiler on my pinto gives it 100 more horsepower....

although oxygen at the root zone will improve yields, yield is genetically determined. If a plant is only designed to give you a pound, giving it 100watts of air pump won't give you a 100kgs.
 
dbkick

dbkick

Well-Known Member
tystikk said:
I did the reverse; I eliminated the airpump and stones by using my recirc pump to feed waterfalls in every site. Works so well I wonder why people still bother with air pumps.
Click to expand...
and hows the heat? sounds like you have multiple pumps running 24/7 and that will heat it up real good.
 
tystikk

tystikk

Member
dbkick said:
and hows the heat? sounds like you have multiple pumps running 24/7 and that will heat it up real good.
Click to expand...
Nonono- the recirculation pump in my setup is the same one that would just pump the water back to the 'epicenter'. Instead of the hose going there, I simply made a manifold and had it deliver water to 1/2" elbow fittings in the lid of every tub site. Oxygenation, agitation and churn are all as good or better than airstones.

I did upsize from a 633gph to a 1000gph water pump, but that's the only other change I made. Since I'm actually adding less heat (at least gross to the op if not net to the water, see discussion below), water temps aren't affected- or if they are, my chiller effectively soaks up whatever amount it is.

An airpump compresses air, heating it. That heat is partially dissipated through the lines on its way to the airstone. The rest disappears quickly at the water end, for two reasons; one, the airstone itself acts as something of a bleed valve, so as air pressure falls passing through it, do does temperature. Two, the water bubbling does a great job of increasing evaporation, which of course also effectively sheds heat. I didn't get rid of the airstones because of heat issues; I did it for cost, complexity and NOISE reasons- Goddamn, those Eco Air 5 pumps get obnoxious!
 
tystikk

tystikk

Member
BenFranklin said:
Sorry but.... Skunk doc.. With that kind of logic, putting a rear spoiler on my pinto gives it 100 more horsepower....

although oxygen at the root zone will improve yields, yield is genetically determined. If a plant is only designed to give you a pound, giving it 100watts of air pump won't give you a 100kgs.
Click to expand...
My pet theory about high dollar air diffusers is that it isn't the extra air that's helping. After all, getting to 100% DO (Dissolved Oxygen) levels is not hard at all, and increasing overall DO is as easy as lowering your water temps. That's right, the best oxygenation device in your grow op isn't your airpump- it's your chiller!

No, what those expensive bubble pads are really good for is increasing the rate of water flow past your roots! I plan to test this idea by running a side by side between a big diffuser pad I have in my spares and a waterpump with a 'flooming' attachment aimed sideways at the roots instead of up at the water surface. I'll leave the waterfall dribbler in the lid in place and operational, as the point of the experiment is to see what if any improvement can be gained by actively washing the roots.
 
skunkd0c

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
MisterBouncyBounce said:
i wasn't getting snarky or anything, sorry if i came off that way. just trying to say my goal was not to use electricity.

once you can do that, you can take this system anywhere, like out doors.

it's not something i'm going to try.......just exploring theoretical designs.......the idea is not power savings but to be totally powerless.
how to move water without using power is an awesome challenge and i posted it in that spirit.
Click to expand...
You did not come off sarky at all if your goal is to grow outdoor with no electric then the drip system would work
 
skunkd0c

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
BenFranklin said:
Sorry but.... Skunk doc.. With that kind of logic, putting a rear spoiler on my pinto gives it 100 more horsepower....

although oxygen at the root zone will improve yields, yield is genetically determined. If a plant is only designed to give you a pound, giving it 100watts of air pump won't give you a 100kgs.
Click to expand...
You have misunderstood .. why are you taking about spoilers lol ?
it would seem you do not understand how NFT functions

1 single pump with a flow of 400LPH can produce around 1kg
this is from my personal experience said pump is 6 watts

now to create a larger system more flow would be necessary a larger pump could be employed to carry the flow of water to more "plant sites"

so you could have 10x 6 watt pumps or a 60 watt pump, this would create enough flow to "feed" 10kg worth of plants
thus the original point the op made about saving electricity is a non issue
then the op moved on to say he might not want to use electricity at all which is a different issue for outdoor growing

peace
 
C

CokeyoDrips

Well-Known Member
I doubt the concept would work. Consider that the siphon output needs to be below the siphon intake to continuously draw fluid. You cannot create a siphon from two buckets on the same level with the same amount of fluid. I also don't understand the reasoning behind a master bucket up top. Is that just to maintain water levels? Also, unless each bucket had it's own siphon tube, you would only be cycling and recycling water in the first bucket. There is nothing to push water to the rest.
 
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