The DNC Reports Lowest Fundraising Since 2003

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
nah. i know it to be a fact.

you hate facts, so of course you deny it and call it a conspiracy theory.
Politics

Health Care

“So, do Hill Republicans betray all of those promises to their base to repeal and replace Obamacare, or do they pass something that people will hate even more? That’s what you call a dilemma” [Charles Cook, Cook Political Report]. That’s the dilemma. It has always been the dilemma: Whether to replace a bad Republican plan (ObamaCare) with a worse one (AHCA; BCRA). There’s a lot on Cook’s narrative of 2009-2010 that I disagree with, but this: “Simply put, on health care, congressional Republicans are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The fact that the initial plan from Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s (a pretty smart guy) had at least four Republicans (Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, and Ron Johnson) who thought it didn’t go far enough in eliminating Obamacare, and at least five (Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Shelley Moore Capito, Dean Heller, and Rob Portman) that worried it went too far showed that this was a matter of splitting the baby. If I were a Senate Republican, I would support the bill, knowing that it would probably fail anyway, then tell my base that ‘I tried,’ then move quickly on to other issues. …This is legislation that would be better handled next year, in a back room, with pragmatic House and Senate members from both parties trying to figure out what is working, what isn’t working, and how to make it work better.” But “knowing that it would probably fail” is handwaving. The BCRA is poised on a knife-edge; but which Republican is going to be the one to tip it either way? That Republican is going to have to decide between party loyalty in their district and perceived public benefit to voters in their district. And the Republicans, feral, ruthless, and effective as they are, haven’t ended up controlling all three branches of government and taking 1000 seats away from Democrats by being squishy on party loyalty. (Oh, and Cook agrees with The Donald, who originally said to kick the can down the road, presumably so the Republicans could get on with what they see as the real business of government: Handing out tax breaks to cronies. And so it goes.)

Sanders on #MedicareForAll:









OK. That was followed by this tweet, which I read and nearly stroked out:









Prompting this reaction from Yglesias:









“And she was right.” Ouch.

Lambert here: What Yglesias ignores, conveniently, is that Clinton used the so-called public option as a way to preventsingle payer and silence single payer advocates, exactly as career “progressives” did in 2009. Sanders urges that the so-called public option be the path toward#MedicareForAll. That said, “lie down with dogs, get up with fleas,” Yglesias being one such flea, as are public option advocates generally. And I’ll need to see actual legislation from Sanders to see how direct and forceful his path toward #MedicareForAll is, because you can be sure liberals and conservatives will fight it every step of the way, turning the public option, yet gain, into a bait and switch operation. (Charitably, Sanders could be doing what it takes to get a Senator to co-sponsor his bill. Somebody’s got to make the sausage, and I’d rather, at this point, it was Sanders than anyone else. Still, since the bill won’t pass, why compromise now?)

This feeds into my general sense that single payer advocates — perhaps the left generally — don’t have such an easy time with success, not having experienced it. After years, decades of organizing, Medicare for All is now on the national agenda. We’re talking about implementation details at this point, and naturally the waonkosphere is doing everything it can to divert the discussion into the weeds, delay matters, and save the health insurance “industry” because markets. Then again, (1) where is the full-throated statement from single payer advocates, Sanders among them, that #MedicareForAll will nuke the most hated industry in the country? It’s gonna happen, so why not embrace it? And (2) where is the sound-byte on how those jobs will be replaced? Yes, I know this argument is almost always made in bad faith by people (like Obama) who otherwise show no concern for the working class whatever, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be answered. And yes, I know denying people health care for a salary deserves moral opprobium; but a party that seeks — or, if reconfigured, would seek — to put direct universal material benefits, especially for the working class, at the heart of its appeal, shouldn’t be just throwing workers out of work. And yes, I know that HR676 provides for retraining, but in other circumstances the left would be the first to say that retraining is problematic, as indeed it is.

And while we’re at it, the fight on SB562 isn’t going all that well either. (Perhaps there’s a reason the odious Nancy Pelosi said it was best to try at the state level. Eh?) Leaving aside the ins and outs of California fiscal policy, the bill is stalled. Whatever temporary political advantage there may be to firing up the base by epater-ing the California Democrat establishment, that pales before the loss of not having a serious policy proposal in place. One of the reasons that Corbyn won (at least the Labour leadership) was that voters read the Labour Manifesto and said, “Yeah, I can vote for that!” And that is when the polls began to turn. Would voters have done that if the Manifesto was full of blank spaces and handwaving? No. Well, that’s how SB562 was. And it doesn’t matter if “It’s not f-a-a-i-r!” that the Democrat Establishment didn’t work to improve the bill; that’s just whining. Liberals do that. The left should not. And this is before we get to the question of whether a state that is not a currency issuer should even be passing such a bill. We need full-throated advocacy for MMT as well, something that Sanders, sadly, did not provide. Again, this is a matter of the shift from policy advocacy to implementation proposals. You can win the battle on the first, and lose the battle on the second. McClellan, in the Peninsular Campaign, had the church towers of Richmond in sight, and his troops could hear the bells ringing. Where, oh where, is the U.S. Grant of the left?

New Cold War

“Podesta: ‘It’s on the FBI’ That DNC Servers Weren’t Turned Over” [FOX]. “The head of the failed campaign called the FBI’s approach to the DNC Russia hack ‘fairly casual’ and ‘lackadaisical.’ ‘If anything, it’s on the FBI that didn’t come forward and really inform the DNC about what was going on until long after,’ Podesta stated.” So, the matter was of vital national importance to prevent a Russian “puppet” from becoming President, but not vital enough for the DNC to have some intern put the servers into the truck of an Uber, drive them over to the FBI building, and drop them off (after backing them up, of course). Alrighty, then. A little exaggerated for vividness, but you see what I mean.

“Investigators explore if Russia colluded with pro-Trump sites during US election” [Guardian]. If a few websites propagating Russia Today clips on Facebook could take down the Clinton juggernaut, then Democratic strategists and consultants who jammed $1.4 billion down the toilet of the Clinton campaign and then flushed have a lot to answer for.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Politics

Health Care

“So, do Hill Republicans betray all of those promises to their base to repeal and replace Obamacare, or do they pass something that people will hate even more? That’s what you call a dilemma” [Charles Cook, Cook Political Report]. That’s the dilemma. It has always been the dilemma: Whether to replace a bad Republican plan (ObamaCare) with a worse one (AHCA; BCRA). There’s a lot on Cook’s narrative of 2009-2010 that I disagree with, but this: “Simply put, on health care, congressional Republicans are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The fact that the initial plan from Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s (a pretty smart guy) had at least four Republicans (Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, and Ron Johnson) who thought it didn’t go far enough in eliminating Obamacare, and at least five (Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Shelley Moore Capito, Dean Heller, and Rob Portman) that worried it went too far showed that this was a matter of splitting the baby. If I were a Senate Republican, I would support the bill, knowing that it would probably fail anyway, then tell my base that ‘I tried,’ then move quickly on to other issues. …This is legislation that would be better handled next year, in a back room, with pragmatic House and Senate members from both parties trying to figure out what is working, what isn’t working, and how to make it work better.” But “knowing that it would probably fail” is handwaving. The BCRA is poised on a knife-edge; but which Republican is going to be the one to tip it either way? That Republican is going to have to decide between party loyalty in their district and perceived public benefit to voters in their district. And the Republicans, feral, ruthless, and effective as they are, haven’t ended up controlling all three branches of government and taking 1000 seats away from Democrats by being squishy on party loyalty. (Oh, and Cook agrees with The Donald, who originally said to kick the can down the road, presumably so the Republicans could get on with what they see as the real business of government: Handing out tax breaks to cronies. And so it goes.)

Sanders on #MedicareForAll:









OK. That was followed by this tweet, which I read and nearly stroked out:









Prompting this reaction from Yglesias:









“And she was right.” Ouch.

Lambert here: What Yglesias ignores, conveniently, is that Clinton used the so-called public option as a way to preventsingle payer and silence single payer advocates, exactly as career “progressives” did in 2009. Sanders urges that the so-called public option be the path toward#MedicareForAll. That said, “lie down with dogs, get up with fleas,” Yglesias being one such flea, as are public option advocates generally. And I’ll need to see actual legislation from Sanders to see how direct and forceful his path toward #MedicareForAll is, because you can be sure liberals and conservatives will fight it every step of the way, turning the public option, yet gain, into a bait and switch operation. (Charitably, Sanders could be doing what it takes to get a Senator to co-sponsor his bill. Somebody’s got to make the sausage, and I’d rather, at this point, it was Sanders than anyone else. Still, since the bill won’t pass, why compromise now?)

This feeds into my general sense that single payer advocates — perhaps the left generally — don’t have such an easy time with success, not having experienced it. After years, decades of organizing, Medicare for All is now on the national agenda. We’re talking about implementation details at this point, and naturally the waonkosphere is doing everything it can to divert the discussion into the weeds, delay matters, and save the health insurance “industry” because markets. Then again, (1) where is the full-throated statement from single payer advocates, Sanders among them, that #MedicareForAll will nuke the most hated industry in the country? It’s gonna happen, so why not embrace it? And (2) where is the sound-byte on how those jobs will be replaced? Yes, I know this argument is almost always made in bad faith by people (like Obama) who otherwise show no concern for the working class whatever, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be answered. And yes, I know denying people health care for a salary deserves moral opprobium; but a party that seeks — or, if reconfigured, would seek — to put direct universal material benefits, especially for the working class, at the heart of its appeal, shouldn’t be just throwing workers out of work. And yes, I know that HR676 provides for retraining, but in other circumstances the left would be the first to say that retraining is problematic, as indeed it is.

And while we’re at it, the fight on SB562 isn’t going all that well either. (Perhaps there’s a reason the odious Nancy Pelosi said it was best to try at the state level. Eh?) Leaving aside the ins and outs of California fiscal policy, the bill is stalled. Whatever temporary political advantage there may be to firing up the base by epater-ing the California Democrat establishment, that pales before the loss of not having a serious policy proposal in place. One of the reasons that Corbyn won (at least the Labour leadership) was that voters read the Labour Manifesto and said, “Yeah, I can vote for that!” And that is when the polls began to turn. Would voters have done that if the Manifesto was full of blank spaces and handwaving? No. Well, that’s how SB562 was. And it doesn’t matter if “It’s not f-a-a-i-r!” that the Democrat Establishment didn’t work to improve the bill; that’s just whining. Liberals do that. The left should not. And this is before we get to the question of whether a state that is not a currency issuer should even be passing such a bill. We need full-throated advocacy for MMT as well, something that Sanders, sadly, did not provide. Again, this is a matter of the shift from policy advocacy to implementation proposals. You can win the battle on the first, and lose the battle on the second. McClellan, in the Peninsular Campaign, had the church towers of Richmond in sight, and his troops could hear the bells ringing. Where, oh where, is the U.S. Grant of the left?

New Cold War

“Podesta: ‘It’s on the FBI’ That DNC Servers Weren’t Turned Over” [FOX]. “The head of the failed campaign called the FBI’s approach to the DNC Russia hack ‘fairly casual’ and ‘lackadaisical.’ ‘If anything, it’s on the FBI that didn’t come forward and really inform the DNC about what was going on until long after,’ Podesta stated.” So, the matter was of vital national importance to prevent a Russian “puppet” from becoming President, but not vital enough for the DNC to have some intern put the servers into the truck of an Uber, drive them over to the FBI building, and drop them off (after backing them up, of course). Alrighty, then. A little exaggerated for vividness, but you see what I mean.

“Investigators explore if Russia colluded with pro-Trump sites during US election” [Guardian]. If a few websites propagating Russia Today clips on Facebook could take down the Clinton juggernaut, then Democratic strategists and consultants who jammed $1.4 billion down the toilet of the Clinton campaign and then flushed have a lot to answer for.
what the fuck does this have to do with bernie taking over $6 million in superpac money?

you and padaraper have gone completely retarded. almost worse than pie.
 

legalcanada

Well-Known Member
it's been tried in fucking courts of law over and over and over again, you retard.

the holocaust happened. 6 million jews died.
that number has been disproven so easily and in so many ways. theres no bodies, theres no way they burned them, there was not enough fuel to burn them, the water table was too high to bury them, etc, etc. not to mention all of the discredited and contradictory witness testimonies. it's not even a racism etc issue it's just a logic and factual issue. if anyone approaches it with an honestly open mind the evidence can only lead to one conclusion. there is soooo many flaws and impossibilities that need to be accepted before you can come anywhere near those numbers.

Red Cross Holocaust Deaths.jpg
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Exactly.

Anyone that can't see this isn't paying attention.
Yet, the party doesn't seem to care. Why? Is it because the apparatus of party officials, consultants, media experts, strategists and organizers are all still getting a nice fat paycheck whether the party wins or loses? Has their focus changed from representing their constituents to hoovering up as much campaign cash as possible?

Where's the accountability?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Yet, the party doesn't seem to care. Why? Is it because the apparatus of party officials, consultants, media experts, strategists and organizers are all still getting a nice fat paycheck whether the party wins or loses? Has their focus changed from representing their constituents to hoovering up as much campaign cash as possible?

Where's the accountability?
Exactly.

Anyone that can't see this isn't paying attention.
What private individuals give to the DNC? I've never sent a donation to the DNC. Only to candidates. The DNC is funded by PACs, fundraising events and a portion of each candidate's own pool of donations. It's also not the DNC's charter to elect congressmen. That's the charter's of the DNCC and DNSC (house and senate respectively).

I'd think that PAC money being down for the DNC would make you guys cheer. I only hear carping. Why is that?

Do you know who is funding Cenk Uygur's propaganda outlet? Google: Buddy Roemer.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
What private individuals give to the DNC? I've never sent a donation to the DNC. Only to candidates. The DNC is funded by PACs, fundraising events and a portion of each candidate's own pool of donations. It's also not the DNC's charter to elect congressmen. That's the charter's of the DNCC and DNSC (house and senate respectively).

I'd think that PAC money being down for the DNC would make you guys cheer. I only hear carping. Why is that?

Do you know who is funding Cenk Uygur's propaganda outlet? Google: Buddy Roemer.
I think no money is better than PAC money but we've already had that argument.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
What private individuals give to the DNC? I've never sent a donation to the DNC. Only to candidates. The DNC is funded by PACs, fundraising events and a portion of each candidate's own pool of donations. It's also not the DNC's charter to elect congressmen. That's the charter's of the DNCC and DNSC (house and senate respectively).

I'd think that PAC money being down for the DNC would make you guys cheer. I only hear carping. Why is that?

Do you know who is funding Cenk Uygur's propaganda outlet? Google: Buddy Roemer.
I'm not going to pretend to have all of the answers, but the one thing that I'm sure of is that if you accept corporate campaign donations, whether those go to the party apparatus or individual politicians, those donors expect something in return. They don't donate out of the goodness of their heart. That creates a scenario where the politician is beholden to the whims of the big donors. You can see how this would create a conflict of interest if that politicians constituents wishes don't line up with those of the big money donors, right?

I don't buy the line that they will be at a competitive disadvantage if they turn away those dollars either. They will gain more from that gesture than they will lose in ad revenue.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to pretend to have all of the answers, but the one thing that I'm sure of is that if you accept corporate campaign donations, whether those go to the party apparatus or individual politicians, those donors expect something in return. They don't donate out of the goodness of their heart. That creates a scenario where the politician is beholden to the whims of the big donors. You can see how this would create a conflict of interest if that politicians constituents wishes don't line up with those of the big money donors, right?

I don't buy the line that they will be at a competitive disadvantage if they turn away those dollars either. They will gain more from that gesture than they will lose in ad revenue.
Somebody earlier said they donate to political campaigns for tax write offs...

That is the level of ignorance we are dealing with. Just let that sink in for a moment...
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to pretend to have all of the answers, but the one thing that I'm sure of is that if you accept corporate campaign donations, whether those go to the party apparatus or individual politicians, those donors expect something in return. They don't donate out of the goodness of their heart. That creates a scenario where the politician is beholden to the whims of the big donors. You can see how this would create a conflict of interest if that politicians constituents wishes don't line up with those of the big money donors, right?

I don't buy the line that they will be at a competitive disadvantage if they turn away those dollars either. They will gain more from that gesture than they will lose in ad revenue.
You believe that Democrats will not be at a competitive disadvantage if they refuse PAC money. Do you base this solely upon belief or do you have facts upon which to base this belief?

Its as if there was no history behind where we are today in politics. And so, I challenge you to speak with facts as a basis rather than belief without proof or sometimes in opposition to facts.

What I and others including Democratic Senators are saying is, yes, we want Citizen's United ruling repealed. What we are also saying is get Democrats back into power, then change the rules. Based upon past elections, what you and other babies on this board propose is likely to backfire. The only way it won't backfire is if there is a new paradigm in place. So, where is the proof of a new paradigm?

That said, the primary season is almost upon us. I heartily endorse the idea that Democratic Party candidates can choose whether or not to accept PAC money. If you and other members of Sander's faction are correct then we should see results in your favor. I believe that we haven't entered a new paradigm. Based upon the 2016 election, most of the country doesn't really care about PAC contributions and so, campaigns with high dollar spending will be favored over ones with low budgets.

The other side of your logic -- that campaign donations corrupt politicians and put them in the pocket of big donors -- might be true elsewhere but I don't see it in my own representatives in Washington. Maybe there are others who are corrupted, but you don't name the corrupted Democrats. Based upon a legal standard, there aren't any so far as I can tell. Ok, so maybe some are and I don't know it. I can say that I know some that aren't. To claim wholesale corruption when I can point out that your theory doesn't hold up in many cases puts you once more in the category of true believer rather than believer in the truth.
 
Last edited:

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I think no money is better than PAC money but we've already had that argument.
How can Democrats change the rules in today's Congress?

I completely agree that no money is better than PAC money. I don't agree that a moral victory is better than winning.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
How can Democrats change the rules in today's Congress?

I completely agree that no money is better than PAC money from a moral hazard point of view. I don't agree that a moral victory is better than winning.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
You believe that Democrats will not be at a competitive disadvantage if they refuse PAC money. Do you base this solely upon belief or do you have facts upon which to base this belief?
It's my belief, as I stated in the comment that you quoted.

Let me ask you a couple questions...

1) How many political TV ads have you watched that completely changed your mind on a candidate? Like seconds before the ad you thought the guy was a total shitbag, and then after the 30 second spot you went "oh wow, this is who I'm voting for now!"?

Ya, me neither

2) If you look at the last 3 election cycles, what has your takeaway been? For me, it's been that people are hungry for change. People are disgusted by all of the money pissed away during the campaigns. People are tired of the divisive attack ads. So, for me personally, it would impress the shit out me to see a politician refuse big donor money. I would no longer question where their loyalty was. I think it would be a net positive for a candidate to lead by example instead of saying" well geez, we'd really like to turn down these millions of dollars from the special interest groups, but then we'd surely lose to those rotten Republicans!" and just continue kicking the can down the road. At what point do you stop buying the excuses, and start demanding change? I've reached that point recently. Apparently you're willing to give them more rope.

what you and other babies on this board propose is....
Have I ever called you names Fog? I don't recall. If you can't get your point across without doing so I won't bother responding to you. I have 3 kids of my own, I'm not looking to deal with any more.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It's my belief, as I stated in the comment that you quoted.

Let me ask you a couple questions...

1) How many political TV ads have you watched that completely changed your mind on a candidate? Like seconds before the ad you thought the guy was a total shitbag, and then after the 30 second spot you went "oh wow, this is who I'm voting for now!"?

Ya, me neither

2) If you look at the last 3 election cycles, what has your takeaway been? For me, it's been that people are hungry for change. People are disgusted by all of the money pissed away during the campaigns. People are tired of the divisive attack ads. So, for me personally, it would impress the shit out me to see a politician refuse big donor money. I would no longer question where their loyalty was. I think it would be a net positive for a candidate to lead by example instead of saying" well geez, we'd really like to turn down these millions of dollars from the special interest groups, but then we'd surely lose to those rotten Republicans!" and just continue kicking the can down the road. At what point do you stop buying the excuses, and start demanding change? I've reached that point recently. Apparently you're willing to give them more rope.



Have I ever called you names Fog? I don't recall. If you can't get your point across without doing so I won't bother responding to you. I have 3 kids of my own, I'm not looking to deal with any more.
Bernie babies is the best description of the naive, unformed, unjustified confidence in Bernie Sanders' ideology. I'm not calling you a name, I'm putting you in a class of naive voters. If you want to change my opinion, then stop with the fact free dialogue.

There absolutely have been turning points in elections based upon ads. http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/six-political-ads-changed-game-n607281 . Daisy, Morning in America, Rock, Willie Horton, It's 3am, Smoking Man. These are the big ones with clear and measurable affect. There is reason to think that other ads have had smaller less measurable effects. You said there were none. No ads that affected an election. Your saying this puts me in the position of either remaining silent or pointing out your lack of knowledge. As if your uninformed opinion had value. This is juvenile. Start making informed statements and I'll stop calling you a Bernie baby. Right now, that's how you talk.
 
Top